1911 feed issue. Tight chamber?

[Zaydok Allen]

I have a question for you 1911 shooters. A few years ago I bought a S&W E Series 1911 with a 5" barrel. It is a nicely made gun for the price and is very accurate. However, I do at times have issues with it failing to return to battery all the way. It isn't that big of a problem because it is mostly a range gun.

Brief history:

I bought some Wilson Combat mags and that did seem to help bring the reliability from about 80% up to 90%.

Then I found out that S&W put rather light recoil springs in these guns. I can't quite remember, but I believe I read on the S&W Forum that they only had 17 to 17.5 lb. recoil spring. I thought that may be an issue, so I put a 18.5 lb Wolf spring into the gun. That brought the reliability up to about 95%

The gun cycles pretty well, and yes I keep it lubed up. It hasn't had anything done to its internals. No polishing or anything at all.

So, my thoughts...... The gun feeds high quality ammo, especially nickel plated brass just fine. It even shoots HP's well. However, when I shoot cheaper target ammo (of any brand) I start getting FTRB malfunctions about every 25 rounds or so. The gun will return 95% of the way to lockup, but not all the way. I have to then give the rear of the slide a push, and it pops in.

It seems like two possibilities to me, but I'm no 1911 expert.

The extractor is a tad too tight and is not allowing the cartridge to slide underneath as it should.

Or, and I think this is the most likely since the malfunctions happen with target ammo, the chamber is just a tad too tight, and ever so slightly out of spec target ammo has a hard time feeding.

I've debated jumping up to a 19 or 20 lb spring, but I don't want to accelerate wear on the frame, and I don't really know that it will solve the problem.

Thoughts?

 

[JTQ]

For what it's worth, the standard recoil spring for a 5" 1911 is 16 lbs.

 

[meanmrmustard]

The standard 1911 spring weight in a full size is 16 pounds, so I doubt that's your issue. The heavier spring you added may be forcing the rounds into an overly tight chamber.

I'd mike that chamber. It may need a light ream to take out any imperfections or tight tolerances.

If you have dummy rounds, hand cycle to see if those chamber. Does your brass show any signs of dragging, or a chewed up base?

 

[Zaydok Allen]

For what it's worth, the standard recoil spring for a 5" 1911 is 16 lbs

Ah! Good info. Thank you. I did not know that.

If you have dummy rounds, hand cycle to see if those chamber. Does your brass show any signs of dragging, or a chewed up base?

Not that I've noticed, but honestly it has been quite awile since I shot it. I need to pull her out again and fire some rounds.

I'd mike that chamber. It may need a light ream to take out any imperfections or tight tolerances.

I do not own a micrometer, but should. So lets say it is a bit tight. What do you think about the idea of using a .45 cal mop on a cleaning rod, with mother's mag polish, and polishing it out by hand. I'm patient, and have a light touch. I guess the reason I ask is that I have used this method on a .22 revolver that had really sticky extraction. After hand polishing the chambers, shells glided in and out with no problem. The chambers were just a tad rough.

I realize this may need more reaming than is practical to accomplish by hand. But it is just a thought. I don't know if it would help or not. It probably wouldn't hurt though hey? By hand, no Dremel or drill involved.

 

[meanmrmustard]

If it's as simple as an imperfection, like a deep caliber stamp or something comparable, Mothers and some 6000 grit sand paper worked in one direction could work.

If it's tight, just plain tight, I'd finish ream it. Either have it done, or buy a ream. Go sloooowwww; be sure to oil, clear any shavings, go clockwise. Mike as you go, do a plunk test.

 

[MEHavey]

Before starting to mod the barrel/chamber, take a digital caliper* to the mouth
of the cheap ammo gthat won't feed. If the loaded mouths are more than
0.471-0.472" it's an ammo problem.

Inceasing the recoil tension won't affect the frame wear & tear at all. All it
will do it cause more malfunctions as the expended cases won't clear the
ejection port.



* If you don't have one, GET ONE.
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=calipers
or and any Home-Depot/Harbor Freight store.

 

[rcmodel]

Take the barrel out of the gun and 'plunk test' the offending ammo by dropping them in the chamber.
They should fall in all the way flush with the barrel hood with a 'plunk', and fall back out on their own weight.

SWC or TC bullets may be hitting the chamber leade / throat before fully chambering.
A lot of barrels are throated for FMJ-RN, and SWC or TC will hit the throat before fully chambering.

And if it won't run with a 16# spring, something else is wrong.

rc

 

[Zaydok Allen]

All the target ammo I shoot is FMJ 230 gr Ball. I'll try the plunk test tonight.

 

[RussB]

I have a question for you 1911 shooters. A few years ago I bought a S&W E Series 1911 with a 5" barrel. It is a nicely made gun for the price and is very accurate. However, I do at times have issues with it failing to return to battery all the way. It isn't that big of a problem because it is mostly a range gun.

Brief history:

I bought some Wilson Combat mags and that did seem to help bring the reliability from about 80% up to 90%.

Then I found out that S&W put rather light recoil springs in these guns. I can't quite remember, but I believe I read on the S&W Forum that they only had 17 to 17.5 lb. recoil spring. I thought that may be an issue, so I put a 18.5 lb Wolf spring into the gun. That brought the reliability up to about 95%

The gun cycles pretty well, and yes I keep it lubed up. It hasn't had anything done to its internals. No polishing or anything at all.

So, my thoughts...... The gun feeds high quality ammo, especially nickel plated brass just fine. It even shoots HP's well. However, when I shoot cheaper target ammo (of any brand) I start getting FTRB malfunctions about every 25 rounds or so. The gun will return 95% of the way to lockup, but not all the way. I have to then give the rear of the slide a push, and it pops in.

It seems like two possibilities to me, but I'm no 1911 expert.

The extractor is a tad too tight and is not allowing the cartridge to slide underneath as it should.

Or, and I think this is the most likely since the malfunctions happen with target ammo, the chamber is just a tad too tight, and ever so slightly out of spec target ammo has a hard time feeding.

I've debated jumping up to a 19 or 20 lb spring, but I don't want to accelerate wear on the frame, and I don't really know that it will solve the problem.

Thoughts?

Running light "target" ammo requires a lighter recoil spring, NOT a heavier one!

Check the extractor hooks. De-burr and polish if necessary. You may need to back off on extractor tension, which will be challenging with the external extractor


Ideally one would check the feed ramp on the frame for proper angle & depth, and re-cut the chamber with a finishing reamer

 

[HisSoldier]

I had one 1911 type handgun that had a minimum length chamber, checking against other 1911's in the same caliber (.45) showed the chamber to be almost .010" shorter than most. It may be that a target guy would select his case lengths very carefully to wring maximum accuracy out of a gun but I wanted reliability with "Grab a handful of ammo in a hurry" ammo.

I chucked the barrel in the lathe and bored the chamber deeper and the problem went away. The exact symptom was failure to go into battery with about 10-20% of out of the box cartridges, a slap on the butt of the slide with the palm of my hand often "solved" it, but I didn't want to mess with that. Also a few cartridges would go allow closure even with the gun judo chop.

 

[MrAcheson]

I had this sort of problem with an RIA. It was caused by extractor clocking because of an undersized firing pin stop. I fit a new firing pin stop and I haven't had a problem with it since.

 

[meanmrmustard]

I had this sort of problem with an RIA. It was caused by extractor clocking because of an undersized firing pin stop. I fit a new firing pin stop and I haven't had a problem with it since.

I usually fit EGW stops as standard equipment on all my 1911s because of this issue.

 

[RussB]

I had this sort of problem with an RIA. It was caused by extractor clocking because of an undersized firing pin stop. I fit a new firing pin stop and I haven't had a problem with it since.

Perhaps you don't realize the OP's gun has an external extractor?


I brought it up in post #9...

 

[rskent]

Perhaps you don't realize the OP's gun has an external extractor?

True, but the round still has to slide up under the extractor. I think I would be looking very closly at that extractor. You know, burrs and such. Anything that can catch or slow down the round as is slides up the breach face.

 

[LiveLife]

If the pistol cycles and feeds/chambers reliably with "high quality" ammo but only experience problems with "target" ammo, I would try the following.

Load a magazine with the offending "target" ammo, lock the slide back, insert the magazine and then while pointing the muzzle in a safe direction, release the slide without riding it. If the round feeds/chambers without issue and the slide returns to full battery, pull back on the slide fully to extract/eject the round and repeat.

If you are able to feed/chamber the entire magazine without issues, that particular "target" ammo may not be pushing the slide back far enough and you may need to use 16 pound recoil spring.

If you have another 1911, I would try swapping out the recoil spring and if the feeding/clambering issue goes away, I would use lighter spring with that particular target ammo.

FYI, I shoot a railed Sig 1911 XO with a tight chamber and even my lead SWC reloads will feed/chamber reliably whether I use 16/17/18.5 lb recoil springs. I tend to vary the spring rate according to powder/charge used to reduce muzzle flip and felt recoil. BTW, I use Chip McCormick power mags.

 

[silicosys4]

I had the exact same issue with a sig nitron railed 1911 with the external extractor. It fed horribly with reloads and marginally with factory ammo, always a failure to return fully to battery with a push on the back of the slide required to lock into battery.
I sent it back to sig for repair, and when it got back the paperwork said they had "adjusted the extractor".
After that the gun ran fine.

My guess is your external extractor needs adjustment. I also thought I had a tight chamber, but my ammo would pass the plunk test and still be unreliable.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Thanks so far for the suggestions folks. I've been busy and havent had time to do the plunk test, but will later today.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Keep us informed.

I'm watching this one closely, as I have a feeling its a chamber tightness issue. I've been wrong before, I just don't remember when.

 

[LiveLife]

If it's the extractor, OP would have feeding issues with all ammo. OP posted no problems with "premium" factory ammo but had issues with "target" ammo.

That's why I suggested OP manually feed a magazine of offending "target" ammo by hand. If the rounds feed without issues, "target" ammo powder charge may not be sufficiently pushing back on the slide or may be the finished dimensions of the target ammo. If the feeding issue is same for both "premium" and "target" ammo when manually cycled, it may be the extractor.

The gun feeds high quality ammo, especially nickel plated brass just fine. It even shoots HP's well. However, when I shoot cheaper target ammo (of any brand) I start getting FTRB malfunctions about every 25 rounds or so.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Well it passed the plunk test with five different ammo types. I dropped in some Speer Gold Dots, Hornady TAPS, Hornady brass XTP loads, Federal Champion FMJS target ammo, and Herter's FMJS. All rounds dropped right in and seated properly. One thing I noted, if I put my finger over the cartridge and tried to rock it around, all cartridges moved around ever so slightly. So the tight chamber idea doesn't seem to fit.

So, I tried hand cycling a full mag of each. All fed and ejected fine.

Here's my theory, which you should all feel free to poke holes in. I think perhaps the notion of cheap target ammo being a little underpowered to cycle the action properly is correct. The 18.5 lb spring I put in increased reliability a bit in the wrong way, because the extra force is slamming the rounds into the chamber. I would think that this may be putting undue strain on a possibly over tight extractor.

The heavy spring helped, but only by using a mallet to do the job of a ball peen hammer. So I'm kind of thinking maybe I should try a standard 16 or maybe a 16.5 lb spring for target ammo. This seems to make sense since the gun fires premium ammo without a hitch as it is hot enough to cycle the gun properly. I think the only real way to check this myself is to see if the rim on a spent target ammo case is marred by the extractor, as has been suggested earlier , correct?

What do you all think ? Am I thinking about this right? Try a lighter spring?

I never did post a pic of the culprit.

 

[murf]

cover the problem round black with a sharpie. run it through the gun and see where it's hitting.

murf

 

[Delmar]

If your pistol cycles standard velocity loads well, but doesn't quite lock up on light target loads, try a 16 lb recoil spring which is pretty much "standard". If the loads are really light, you may wish to drop down to a 14 lb spring for the softball loads.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

What do you all think ? Am I thinking about this right? Try a lighter spring?

Why not? When I was always reloading my own, and my loads were all over the map, depending on target, IPSC major, practice load, etc. I had 5 different springs. Always good to have a few different strengths.

 

[LiveLife]

Keep in mind that many factory 16 lb recoil springs will become 15 lb springs after several hundred to thousand rounds and then even lighter target reloads will cycle the slide fully. For this reason, I usually recommend 17 lb springs made by Wolff/Wilson Combat for "factory replacement".

It would be nice to have a feedback from the OP if lighter 16 lb recoil spring cycled the slide to fully chamber the offending factory target ammo vs 18.5 lb spring.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Sorry man, haven't gotten around to getting a 16 lb spring yet. Busy as hell lately. When I do, I'll update.