1911 Squib Cycle

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log man

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Some pretty good minds here and would like to hear from those that have an answer as to exactly how a squib round can cycle the slide and chamber a fresh round in a 1911.

This has been disputed and easy to see how it can't happen.

However it has come up a number of times of it happening, and seeing it happen, so I have to believe it can.

I can only rationalize that it can only happen with a malfunctioning 1911, in addition to a light charge squib.

LOG
 
I'd have to put a no-powder squib cycling a 1911 in the same category with:
"My S&W revolver went off when I dropped it and it shot my wife".
And "The accelerator stuck and I ran right through the liquor store wall".

It didn't happen exactly like the person said it did.

I don't buy the partial-charge squib sticking a bullet in the barrel, and still having enough recoil to fully cycle the slide and load another round either.

I could buy a loose bullet getting jammed in the rifling far enough to pull it out of the case during an immediate action drill.
And the next round feeding fast enough to drive the first bullet into the barrel a little, and telescope the loaded round far enough, to end up with two bullets in the barrel.
But I have never actually seen it happen.

But I have only been shooting & smithing 1911's for about 50 years now, so what do I know.

rc
 
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Hmm. Sounds like a winter project. Too chill and damp to get out and shoot half the day, but a few ptooeys and whacks on the ramrod would be fun and informative. I've got a $40 barrel here somewhere I would not mind abusing.
 
After having seen it happen...was actually looking straight at the gun when it cycled...with a pistol that had been built by Tommy Abernathy...I'll have to disagree with the notion that it can't happen except with a pistol that isn't functioning correctly to start with.
 
This is one of those "can't happen" instances that does. Most of us who have worked up loads have gone through the point where the projectile leaves the barrel but the slide only moves back a little before returning to battery. It is hard to imagine what could make the gun fully cycle to eject an empty if the bullet is still in the barrel.....but it has.

I didn't see the gun being shot but I have seen an M&P 40 with two squibs in the bulged barrel. The shooter, who was a new shooter, said he didn't rack the slide between shots.

I doubt that you could duplicate it consistently. I have thought that it could be a result of deformation of the bullet where the gas plug gets by but the round stays stuck. I would also think that the round will have to travel a ways down the barrel for the gun to cycle.

Tuner, was the round lead or jacketed/plated?
 
Not agreeing or disagreeing, just asking for an explanation of how the 1911 short recoil action could unlock and cycle in a fresh round. The squib would be holding the barrel forward with the same pressure that is bearing on the breech face when the pressure dropped to zero. I do believe it can happen, but would like to understand the sequence of events leading up to it, and how to replicate it.

LOG
 
The "correct" or just-right combination of squib powder load, light recoil spring and either a light magazine spring with 1-2 rounds remaining or no rounds (last round squib).

The squib load only has to power the rearward movement of the slide sufficiently for the compressed "light" recoil spring to power the slide forward again, stripping the remaining single magazine round to chamber it. In the scenario of last round squib, there is no requirement for the compressed recoil spring to again drive the slide / strip a cartridge from the magazine, as the slide stop is engaged by the now empty magazine. The danger in the last-round-squib scenario is of course, not recognizing it happened, then load a fresh magazine to yet again fire a round into the now obstructed barrel.
 
a5werkes said:
The "correct" or just-right combination of squib powder load, light recoil spring and either a light magazine spring with 1-2 rounds remaining or no rounds (last round squib).

The squib load only has to power the rearward movement of the slide sufficiently for the compressed "light" recoil spring to power the slide forward again, stripping the remaining single magazine round to chamber it. In the scenario of last round squib, there is no requirement for the compressed recoil spring to again drive the slide / strip a cartridge from the magazine, as the slide stop is engaged by the now empty magazine. The danger in the last-round-squib scenario is of course, not recognizing it happened, then load a fresh magazine to yet again fire a round into the now obstructed barrel.
Click to expand...
How in this example was the barrel linked down, breaking the engagement with the slide when both the barrel and slide where acted on by the same pressure in opposite directions? Certainly the slide would move slightly if the bullet went half way, but to completely cycle would be a different matter.

Most often the squib does not cycle the slide at all. I have purposely loaded and fired them to no avail, but a stuck bullet in the bore.

LOG
 
It was a 200-grain lead SWC Kruz. The man said 4.5 grains of Bullseye.

He and his wife were sporting his and hers TommyGuns...Abernathy's trademark. I was talking to him while she ran the plate racks, practicing for a match the same afternoon. I was watching her shoot because I was impressed by her mowin' the plates down and with her recoil control...standing behind and slightly to her right...when I heard the light report. A plate didn't fall and I didn't see a strike in the dirt berm. I did see the empty case dribble out...and before I could yell for her to stop, she pulled the trigger again.

There was no kaboom. There wasn't even a report. The gun just went pop-pffffft...and locked up. I saw a bullet nose about a half-inch from the muzzle, and the barrel was split up the sides at 3 and 9. I got the slide to move about a quarter-inch and that was as far as it would go.

Like most people, I was skeptical when I heard of it, thinking...like everybody else...that the shooter did a fast tap-rack and simply forgot...until I actually watched it happen in real time. Her left hand never moved. She just pulled the trigger.

I was also on hand for another one, but I didn't see it happen. The bullet didn't make it quite far enough to let the next round chamber...and thank his stars that he was shooting hardball instead of short hollowpoints...and the gun failed to go into battery. When he jacked the live round out and let the slide go...it failed again. He stopped and examined the gun, and found the problem. I knocked it out with a rod that I keep in my range bag, and he carried on.
 
How in this example was the barrel linked down, breaking the engagement with the slide when both the barrel and slide where acted on by the same pressure in opposite directions? Certainly the slide would move slightly if the bullet went half way, but to completely cycle would be a different matter.
Click to expand...

You're gettin' warm...
 
Warm, yes it happens with a 1911.

Just perhaps not any 1911.

For reasons that I can only fantasize about the bullet affects a very poor seal as it leaves the case? and an imbalance in pressure momentarily occurs and in the right set up, cycles. Okay great. I can easily debate against this fantasy occurrence. If the bullet goes far enough to allow the next, it was sealed most of the time. There is always an imbalance, the bullet engraving and sliding out the barrel under the same force as the case is being held against the breech face is an imbalance, and causes the side to begin movement and the momentum that carries it through.

Poor or limited radial lug contact to allow the slide to move prior to a full link, down would help to allow it. Direct blow back, weak recoil spring, can do.

LOG
 
At one time there was an early machinegun design, and a Garand M1922 rifle design that operated on primer set-back.

Yea!
Thats the ticket!!

Gotta be that, or magic fairy dust!

rc
 
rcmodel said:
At one time there was an early machinegun design, and a Garand M1922 rifle design that operated on primer set-back.

Yea!
Thats the ticket!!

Gotta be that, or magic fairy dust!

rc
Click to expand...

I could buy that lock, stock, and barrel(What am I saying?), but.......no:neener:

Fairy dust....maybe.:what:

LOG
 
Since the thread on another forum, I've been all over the web looking for stories of this happening. I found them with just about all calibers. I've seen posts of first hand accounts of a .22, a few 9's, a .38 (in a 1911), a 40, and more than a few .45's.

There is one consistency in all the reports.......lead projectiles. I can't find any "reports" of this happening with jacketed rounds.

I've never given thought to inspecting a stuck bullet before grabbing the brass rod but maybe there is an answer there. ??????
 
Kruzr said:
Since the thread on another forum, I've been all over the web looking for stories of this happening. I found them with just about all calibers. I've seen posts of first hand accounts of a .22, a few 9's, a .38 (in a 1911), a 40, and more than a few .45's.

There is one consistency in all the reports.......lead projectiles. I can't find any "reports" of this happening with jacketed rounds.

I've never given thought to inspecting a stuck bullet before grabbing the brass rod but maybe there is an answer there. ??????
Click to expand...
Okay, so a scenario would be it won't happen primer only but a low charge, the bullet doesn't seal as fast as normal and the gas jet cuts the bullet directing all the thrust to the breech face enacting link-down and closing cycle, somehow the bullet migrates down the tube leaving room for it's mag buddy. Boom, or psssssssst bulge, burp. Maybe closer to possibilities, of possible happenings.

LOG
 
Okay three different sources have said they had only seen it with lead. Perhaps an important clue. Hard lead and a soft charge is a no-no, just as a hot load with soft. So the hard doesn't obturate with the soft load and gets cut.

LOG
 
In 9mm, it happened to me with a lightly sprung comp pistol and a 125gr JHP.

The bullet went 3/4 of the way down the barrel and the next rd chambered. Really. I heard the different sound and froze, luckily. The RO also heard it and yelled. No noticeable blow-back.

I believe the powder/primer got contaminated by a bad reloading practice I have since ceased to do.

The initial bullet movement and blow-back must have been enough to cycle the pistol?
 
Call me a doubting Thomas, but I'm still having a really hard time envisioning how this could happen with a "no powder" squib.

A 1911 or any other locked-breach pistol simply must have enough recoil imparted from the moving bullet to cycle the slide and unlock the barrel from it.
Unless that happens, there is no way the case can get out of the chamber.

A primer only squib doesn't move the bullet fast or far enough to do that.
So that rules out normal recoil operation.
Or blow-back operation either, because the slide & barrel are locked together.

Gas cutting past the bullet leaving it stuck in the barrel doesn't float my boat either.
If the bullet never reached escape velocity due to gas cutting, it didn't produce enough recoil to cycle the slide on a normally sprung gun either.
At least in my mind.

Of course, I didn't believe that about the guy that could load his Glock by jabbing it foreword through the air real fast during the draw either, until I saw it!

rc
 
If I can grap the slide of my 1911 and rack it, against a spring tension, why cannot a squib produce enough force to cycle the action?
 
It's right in front of ya, RC. So simple that you can't see it because you're lookin' for a zebra amongst the horses.

Here's the explanation.

If the bullet moves, the slide moves. The slide only has to move a quarter inch to drop the barrel. Once that happens, the bullet's location is irrelevant. If there's a little pressure left in the system, it escapes through the open breech...giving a "POP" that leads the shooter to believe that the round fired normally. The slide moves, and the shooter believes that the gun has recoiled normally. If the bullet goes deep enough to allow another round to chamber...and he's in the trigger-pull mode...he pulls the trigger.

If there was enough force to drive the bullet halfway through the barrel, there was more than enough to drive the slide fast enough to give it the momentum needed to overcome the recoil spring.

The slide doesn't require a lot of force to cycle without the bullet's influence. You can hand-cycle it as fast as it moves when it's fired...or faster if you're reasonably strong and quick. Try it.

Force requirement demo:

Dump 10 grains of Bullseye into a primed case and stuff a piece of cotton on top to hold the powder in place so you can work it into the chamber. Fire it. You may be shocked to see how far the side will move. I got one to put a hammer on half-cock with 6 grains once...with a piece of toilet tissue lightly holding the charge. The gun had a 16-pound recoil spring...a 23-pound mainspring...and a 1/16th radius on the firing pin stop.
 
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