2 part question. Die depth and Vmax over all length

[Ghost In The Fog]

First I want to say I have loaded 8,500 rounds of 9MM exclusively on both the Lee Classic and Hornady LNL AP. This is my first time loading .223 or any rifle and this question is regarding the LNL.

All cases have been cleaned, lubed, sized, de-burred, chamfered, pockets swaged and primers in. All that is left is to charge and seat bullets.

Two part question:
1) Ram stroke in relation to die depth
2) COAL of Hornady Vmax 55Gr

Part 1

On the LNL station 1 Powder Measure. Set depth of die to allow full rotation of the powder bushing- Height adjusted on shell plate.

Station 2 Powder Cop. Adjust in and out based on a charged case.

Station 3- Bullet seat die. Raise shell plate, screw in die to touch. Lower ram and screw in an additional ¼ to 1/3 in. (Lower)

Station 4 Crimp. Raise shell plate, screw in die to touch. Lower ram and screw in an additional ½ turn.

Starting at station1 each die is then installed lower than the last in turn changing the relation of the shell plate to the previous setting and distance from the shell plate. It also changes the ability for the ram to reach the top of the stroke because it is stopping at the shell plate at the crimp die. That initial set up is no longer accurate. If I take out the crimp die, it then hits the seat die. Each one of these changes the rotation of the powder bushing in station one to not 100% complete of its travel. (Only slightly but it is no longer set as it was on step one).

This also affects the travel of the arm on the press. It no longer completes a full stop at the bottom of the downward stroke as in the initial powder measure set up.

My question is then this…

Isn’t this backwards? Shouldn’t the lowest die be set first? Crimp, seat, powder measure and finally powder cop? Each die would then be above the shell plate except the crimp die. How do you compensate for the restricted ram stroke caused by the dies hitting the shell plate?

I never had this problem loading 9MM.

Part 2:

I am loading my ladder test groups using 55Gr. Hornady Vmax

Matching Norma brass all at 1.750, Federal small rifle primers and laddering at 21.2, 21.7, 22.2, 22.7 and 23.2 grains of Alliant 2230 powder.

I am loading 11 rounds of each powder charge and run 10 through the chrono and number 11 into my unscientific ballistic water bottles just to see the difference in expansion. I am anticipating speeds from 2,936 on the low side to 3,200 on the high.

The max overall length stated in cartridge data is 2.260 My factory loaded Hornady 55Gr spire points are 2.173. Very similar profile, but slightly different.

Question: is there a minimum? I am not talking compressing the load, just as a general rule. Something not to go lower than?

Overall length of 2.250 plunks fine in my chamber. Is there anyone out there that loads 55Gr Vmax that can share some info? I am happy with keeping it at 2.250 but that is close to max length of 2.260. Is it better to shorten it some? I am thinking of seating at 2.200-2.210 and calling it good for the initial test.

As always, thank you for all of your input and experience.

 

[Walkalong]

How do you compensate for the restricted ram stroke caused by the dies hitting the shell plate?

You should not have any die set so it restricts the stroke of the ram.

 

[edwardware]

You should not have any die set so it restricts the stroke of the ram.

This. . . which makes setting up cam-over a touchy operation, but may be necessary depending on dies and headspace.

 

[edwardware]

Overall length of 2.250 plunks fine in my chamber. . . . but that is close to max length of 2.260.

There is no value in setting COAL to match the book. The book provides a place to start looking, but there's no reason to imagine it's magic or perfect.

If you're COAL functions through your magazines, and chamber, and you're starting low, then you've done it right. If you're COAL is dramatically longer than book and puts you near the rifling, start low. If you're COAL is dramatically shorter than book, start low.

In other words, start low. When I'm setting COAL for an unfamiliar arm/bullet, I generally set the longest length that will function through the magazine, chamber, and provide a caliber's engagement with the neck. I have broken all of those conventions on occasion, but it's a good starting point.

 

[Ghost In The Fog]

OMG!!! Epiphany.
The light just came on. I am wracking my brain about your comments, especially @Walkalong (as usual)
I was going to copy a picture from the setup manual only to show how I was following directions. I just didn't get it and all of a sudden, bang! And I mean BANG!
I have been using Lee dies! On a LNL AP- These dies may work but not the way I have set them up. I have been setting them up according to the instructions for the Lee press. This has NOTHING to do with the LNL.
I am obviously very dense. The Classic is a turret not a progressive. It does not matter if the dies are flush with the shell plate or are threaded through 3 inches!! Each station has nothing to do with the next!! One could be 1/4 turn down the other could be 1 turn down. DUH!!
I will follow up in the morning and see how badly you all are going to harass me. I definitely deserve it. I have been at this way to long not to have understood this. This should be a locked post on what NOT to do.
Thank you all for helping turn the light on in this old brain.
Any suggestions for dies for .223 and 9MM? Stick with Hornady? Which series? Other brands- other than LEE? Or can they be set up for the LNL?
Good grief!

 

[Walkalong]

I have been setting them up according to the instructions for the Lee press.

Which are not very good directions IMHO.

 

[Walkalong]

Any suggestions for dies for .223 and 9MM? Stick with Hornady? Which series? Other brands- other than LEE? Or can they be set up for the LNL?

Any brand cab be used on the LNL, although with some of the older Lee dies I had to get creative. It's hard to go wrong with RCBS, but they all work just fine and will load great ammo. I like my Lee sizer with the long tapered carbide insert better than my two other 9MM sizers with short basically straight carbide inserts, the others work, but the Lee leaves a much cleaner look without the bulge near the bottom since the insert is tapered like the case.

I have a couple of .223 sizers, both work just fine.

 

[Ghost In The Fog]

Thank you for your reply and advise. I have been looking in to other dies but I think I am going to stick with my Lee dies if I can get them to work properly. I guess in my case it is not the dies that are not right, it is the way that I had them set up.
I was reading about the RCBS AR die set and it seemed like these were a good option. After reading about them and others, they all seem to work the same.
I have a question- Below is from the instruction manual for the RCBS AR die. It states that it is imperative that the cases be trimmed to the same overall length.
I have thousands of .223 cases and in the process of getting ready to make the initial ladder I separated 200 cases by head stamps and then by case overall length. For example, the Norma cases I have, after sizing they range from 1.741 to 1.758 The majority being in the 1.748 to 1.752 range but there are plenty in the other lengths. The trim length is 1.760 so not one case, Norma or any of the other head stamps I measured are at trimming length.
How important is it that they are the "same length"? Does that mean they all have to be with in a tenth of each other?


I have only loaded 11 so far for my ladder test but I have to say, the Lee Pacesetter dead length seating die is exact. I set my seating depth on the first bullet and the other 10 were with in one thousandth of an inch. Very impressive so far.

When I reset the Lee dies on the LNL, how far in do I set the dies? For example, the seating die says screw in until it touches the shell holder plus an additional 1/4 turn. The crimp die is an additional 1/2 turn after contact and the sizing die is 1/4 to 1/3 after contact. I now understand the shell holder on the turret press is not the same as the shell plate on a progressive and function completely different. But how do I set the depth of each die? Just keep the dies 1/1000th off the shell plate?
Thank you again for your help.

 

[jebova2301]

Thank you for your reply and advise. I have been looking in to other dies but I think I am going to stick with my Lee dies if I can get them to work properly. I guess in my case it is not the dies that are not right, it is the way that I had them set up.
I was reading about the RCBS AR die set and it seemed like these were a good option. After reading about them and others, they all seem to work the same.
I have a question- Below is from the instruction manual for the RCBS AR die. It states that it is imperative that the cases be trimmed to the same overall length.
I have thousands of .223 cases and in the process of getting ready to make the initial ladder I separated 200 cases by head stamps and then by case overall length. For example, the Norma cases I have, after sizing they range from 1.741 to 1.758 The majority being in the 1.748 to 1.752 range but there are plenty in the other lengths. The trim length is 1.760 so not one case, Norma or any of the other head stamps I measured are at trimming length.
How important is it that they are the "same length"? Does that mean they all have to be with in a tenth of each other?
View attachment 941974

I have only loaded 11 so far for my ladder test but I have to say, the Lee Pacesetter dead length seating die is exact. I set my seating depth on the first bullet and the other 10 were with in one thousandth of an inch. Very impressive so far.

When I reset the Lee dies on the LNL, how far in do I set the dies? For example, the seating die says screw in until it touches the shell holder plus an additional 1/4 turn. The crimp die is an additional 1/2 turn after contact and the sizing die is 1/4 to 1/3 after contact. I now understand the shell holder on the turret press is not the same as the shell plate on a progressive and function completely different. But how do I set the depth of each die? Just keep the dies 1/1000th off the shell plate?
Thank you again for your help.

Not sure how it is with your LNL, but with my Mark 7, I just kind of fiddled around with it until the cases passed a case gauge check. Start with the resizing die. If I were you, I would take the sizing die, thread it in until it hits the shellplate, and then back it off 4 full turns or so. This most likely won't be the proper height, but that is fine. Lube up a case, and run it through the resizing die at this depth. If it isn't resized enough, thread the die in another half turn and try again. If it got the shoulder bumped back too far, back the die out another half turn and try with another piece of brass. Do the same thing with the crimp die. Set it above where it needs to be, and then thread it in 1/4 to 1/2 turn each time, and keep doing it until you get it where you want. Once you have all the dies set where you want, do one pass with the shellplate loaded in each station, and make sure the settings are still correct, or make any minor adjustments that may be needed to account for shellplate flex. After that, you should be good.