20 gauge or 12 gauge?

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My brother in law hunts deer with a 20. I've never seen him not kill a deer he shot, for what it's worth. One shot only, thats all that was needed.

We have pretty big deer here too, not 90 pound dogs like in some parts of the country.
 
Well, there is one irrefutable fact that can be drawn from your story.

That was one shot to hell fox!!

I don't question the sequence of events, or that it happened just as you say. What I do question is your analysis of the situation. To point to a small animal that has been shot with "7 or 8 rounds from a .22 and 3 rounds from a 20 ga.. " and then gets finished off with a 12 ga and conclude that the 12 ga is superior to the 20 is quite a leap. The poor fox could probably have been finished off by a well placed stone. Would you then be trying to tell people that they should use stones instead of a 20 ga?

You have arrived at a certain conclusion, but don't get all riled up because I can't quite manage to arrive at the same place based on your story.

Not questioning your veracity or personal integrity, just two guys that looked at a sequence of events and arrived at different conclusions. Happens every day.
 
.plenty to stop an intruder, but less muzzle velocity than a 12
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WRONG. 20 gauge shoots just as fast as 12, just less shot charge.

I keep my 20 gauge SxS loaded with 2 3/4" number 3 buck and I'm quite sure I wouldn't wanna be shot center mass with it. I would die post haste. Think of it as 20 25 caliber rounds hitting you at once or maybe getting hit by 20 Ruger 10/22s at once in the same area of your chest. About the same velocity, though 3 buck is a little bigger around.

I even shoot ducks with my 20 on occasion. My 12s pattern a bit better than my 20 and I've found that 3 steel is pretty awesome out of a 2 3/4" 12, but 3" 20 holds about the same payload, must strings the shot a bit more. For geese, I bought a 10 gauge. 12 would be okay if they hadn't mandated steel shot 30 years ago. That gives the 10 an edge. Really, even though I own 3 12s, one 20, and one 10 (leaving the 16 out of it), I could get along bird hunting with the 20 and use the 10 for geese.

But, for home defense, the 20 gauge is about 54 caliber or something like that. Hey, beats the HELL out of a .45ACP! Some people in the handgun forums think the .45ACP is the end all, blows 'em off their feet. :rolleyes: Tell ME that at 15 feet a 7/8 ounce load of buckshot out of a 20 at 1200-1300 fps ain't hand over fist more powerful than a .45 ACP! Gimme a break! The 20 puts up around 1600-2000 ft lbs IIRC, could calculate it, but you should get the point.

You gotta takes this stuff in perspective, ya know.
 
There is no doubt, at least in my mind, that a properly loaded 20 would get the job done in a HD situation. It is just that by the time you get the right ammo and combine it with the generally lighter 20 guage guns, you do not get any benefit of lighter recoil when compared to the 12. By choosing ammo carefully the 12 is just more versatile, and can have less recoil.

I have no issue with someone choosing a 20 to get a lighter, easier to carry gun, they just need to be aware that heavy loads will still have pretty stiff recoil.
 
Several years ago, I had to shoot a rabid raccoon. It took two shots, 12 guage 1.5 oz slugs into its torso, from 5 feet, to kill it. I also have personally seen squrrels shot with 3" magnum turkey loads from a 12 guage just run off and die later.

It's not just 20 guages that can "fail".
 
12 is cheaper, making practice and stocking ammo economical.

12 can be loaded up or down, making it much more versatile.

12 recoil isn't bad, even with full power loads. Training is needed if the recoil is too much, because you are doing it wrong. My 130 lb wife shoots low recoil 12 gauge slugs and buckshot by the box and has no complaints about recoil.
 
Personally, I prefer the 12 ga.; never had much affinity for the 20. But, the 20 ga. is fine as an HD weapon as well. So, Im not really going to recommend one or the other as, again, either would get the job done. But, you now know my preference...from here, its up to you.

But, I must say that the 12 ga. recoil is not all that bad, IMHO. This coming from a relatively small framed individual. Frankly, if the gun does not fit you well (or at least close to it) and that butt isnt buried where it needs to be, you will feel recoil. When I hear of someone complaining about a sore shoulder after less than 10 rounds or so, I automatically assume either poor technique or poor fit...or both.

Keep in mind, the 12 ga. isnt some scary, uncontrollable monster. Heck, I am more aprehensive when firing a .44 Mag than I would ever be with the 12 ga. shotgun.
 
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i know how to fix the issue... catch 100 rabid foxes.. (or healthy foxes and give them rabies) then shoot 50 with a 20 gauge...record the results and shoot 50 with a 12 gauge... record the results...


results meaning... shot placement, load and number of shots necessary to kill the TOTAL number of foxes per gauge.

ONE rabid fox killed by the effects of three total guns and 10 to 11 total shots does not prove superiority or effectiveness...you suggesting that one 12 gauge shot (load?) is more devastating than 3 20 gauge shots (load?) and 7 to 8 .22 shots?

Unless there was some way to shoot an animal with one gun (shot placement), see what happens, then back up and shoot the same animal with another gun (shot placement), see if it was better.

I have shot animals before with a variety of calibers and gauges and good shot placement. Some fall immediately and others require several follow up shots.

Moral to the story.... every animal is different and every situation is different.
Is the 12 gauge potentially more effective than a 20 gauge? YES....with longer range they have an improved shot pattern and they throw more shot down range.... seeing as any realistic home defense situation is going to be within yards or so these benefits are negated.

Is a 12 gauge more deadly than a 20 gauge? Yes and no but most definitely not within HD ranges.
 
A lot of what has been said above is true-except the part about birdshot, and I don't know about rodents shot and run off, foxes DOA or not, and whatever they were shot with I could care less.
The question IIRC was about 20 gauge for HD. The answer is YES, it is perfectly good for HD, and #3 buck is quite OK for HD IMHO, as are 20 gauge slugs-where else are you going to get a 7/8 oz slug into a BG? A .458 Winchester Magnum?
Now many of the comments about getting the same recoil from a 20 as a 12 have some merit. If you are going to try to move the same weight of lead out of a 20 as a 12, you will get commensurate recoil, and if he 20 is lighter than the 12 it will kick harder, simple Newton stuff.
There is merit in the idea that a 12 will give more load choices than the 20, but that is not definitive. My suggestion would be to see if you can borrow one of each and shoot a decent HD load out of each and see how it feels.
Do not use 3" shells in either, they are simply not needed in HD. Use a 2.75" load comparing like to like, use a 12 gauge with #3 or #4 buck and a 20 with whatever you can find that comes close, probably #3, or #4 also. If you think you might use slugs do the same with each gun using a plain standard rifled slug. You may find that stock size and form may make a bigger diference than the gauge as far as felt recoil is concerned.
If I was making the choice, I would go for the 12 and just get a little lighter load, say #4 buck instead of 00 buck. On the other hand I would not feel at all underarmed with a 20 gauge with 3 or 4 buckshot-just please, please, do not listen to those who say use birdshot, they are wrong wrong wrong. And they will always be wrong.
Do some emperical research and find out what you are comfortable with, the practice with no less than 100 rounds (not all at once) or until you feel comfortable with your choice.
 
Why then does limited pentration handgun HD ammo almost always contain bird shot in some form? Most are nothing but a empty bullet jacket loaded with birdshot and the nose plugged.
Don't get me wrong I AM NOT saying that birdshot is the best HD load. BUT if you can show me a man that can take a couple rounds of # 6 out of either a 20 or a 12 ga at 15' to 20' and I'll show you a rabid fox that has been shot by a tank round!

Jimmy K
 
The debate between the 12 ga. and 20 ga. aside, some of this talk about recoil seems somewhat superfluous given an adrenaline pumped, high anxiety HD encounter. Pistols aside, given the typical ranges of an HD encounter, is recoil/follow-up really going to be much of a factor? Im betting not.

I choose the 12 ga.....Whether a BG is wearing the light clothing of summer or heavy clothing in winter, whether or not he/she is doped up, thick or thin, the 12 ga. loaded with 00 Buck should prove more than effective in each case. No real "guessing" about it. If not, then chances are a weapon of any rational caliber would not make much of a difference anyway.
 
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Insight-NEO, spot on.
You have options for low-recoil slugs and buckshot if it's an issue compared to the normal stuff.
Gun fit and familiarity are really important regardless of which gauge you choose.
My choice is the 12 gauge, based on shooting animals over 100 lbs., as a caveat I have not shot any deer with a 20 gauge though.
The 12 gauge is more versatile when it comes to loadings. I haven't had terrible problems hunting down slugs or buckshot, just poke around in your travels. If you want someone to hold your hand and do it for you, good luck.
 
The animal control officer in my county uses a Ruger 10-22 semiauto loaded with 40 grain hollow points. He knows where to place the shot and if he ever fails, I haven't seen it. He can pick off a running dog at 100 feet and roll him. He carries a 20 gauge shotgun in the rack loaded with #3 buck but he told me he almost never uses it.

Rabid animals have to be dispatched on the spot. Can't take any chances of getting a bite or scratch.
 
Any gun, even a .500 Nitro Express can fail. The only advantage of the 12 is a little more payload. I don't need it at 15 feet. The 20 is more powerful than ANY handgun and I'm right at home with the .38 special, frankly, for self defense. I have a 10 gauge, better than the 12. Should I load up the 10 with 18 pellets of 00? I have the ammo. Would I then be invincible? On geese, 12 gauge ain't squat to the 10. The 10 RULES, frankly. Why isn't 10 gauge more popular for home defense? But, my 20 is light and short and I like it and it's plenty. I don't need no stinkin' tacticool crap, either. A coach gun is plenty for safe room defense.

And, I buy 20 gauge rounds just as affordably as 12s. Cost of ammo is not a problem. I get PLENTY of practice with my guns because I hunt birds with 'em. I don't shoot paper with 'em, though I'll occasionally shoot clays. That little 20 is part of my body when I pick it up, almost points itself. That's why I keep it in the bedroom with number 3 buck when it's not killin' doves or teal. I average about as well on dove with it as I do with my 12, about 2 shots per bird, 2 1/2 when I don't eat my cherrios. With 3" loads, it carries as much shot as a 2 3/4" 12, but ya can't find buckshot in 3" 20, or I haven't. I don't think it's needed, though.

BTW, winter down here means 70 degrees instead of 105. :rolleyes:
 
If I have a bear show up in my yard (again) you can dang well bet I won't take my 20 ga. out
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Bears? I thought we were talkin' home defense. If I ever see a bear in my yard, I'll call the zoo, cause there ain't a natural one within 400 miles of me. He'd have to walk 40 miles to get here from the zoo. :rolleyes: If I was worried about bear, I'd have a rifle handy, anyway.

The 12 gauge ain't the most powerful shoulder fired weapon on the planet, believe it or not. Rifles are preferred by hunters like me. How's about keeping a Marlin around in .45-70? Hell, an SKS is plenty for a bear. They ain't THAT hard to kill. A 20 gauge slug would be fine and I wouldn't want a 12 gauge with buckshot, want a slug in it. I keep a slug on the butt cuff of my 20, but it ain't for bears, it's just because I might find a need for it, you never know. I take a few slugs along when I'm dove hunting my place just in case I get a 50 yards or less shot at a hog. A 20 gauge slug is plenty enough for a big hog.
 
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If you live alone you should choose the meanest weapon you can handle for HD purposes. OTOH is you have a wife, children, and/or elderly folks living with you you need to think about what they could handle.

A home invasion could happen while you're at work or you could go down in the first exchange of fire, and if other family members can't handle your HD weapon then they are in serious trouble. IMO the proper choice for HD is the most powerful that anyone in the household can handle, at least as a backup to the main weapon just in case.
 
Why then does limited pentration handgun HD ammo almost always contain bird shot in some form? Most are nothing but a empty bullet jacket loaded with birdshot and the nose plugged.
Don't get me wrong I AM NOT saying that birdshot is the best HD load. BUT if you can show me a man that can take a couple rounds of # 6 out of either a 20 or a 12 ga at 15' to 20' and I'll show you a rabid fox that has been shot by a tank round!
Click to expand...

They may be made with sintered or powdered compressed metal components so they fragment, but they do that after penetration. Shotshells from a handgun would not.

As for a bear - a 20 slug will do the job as easily, (or not), as the 12 slug of equal weight and velocity.

The 20 will also do just fine for HD purposes. As mentioned, there IS a better selection, and usually more readily available, of 12 ga buck and slug shells. Depending on where you live, that may or may not be a factor.

If you have a gun, ANY gun, that fits you properly, that you've shot repeatedly and know like the back of your hand, then that is the gun to use - and if everyone in your family can also do the same, even better.
 
A 410 will do the Job

A man that lives about 2 miles from me , on a lonely country road ,shot an intruder who was stealing out of his garage during the day. The intruder had a revolver and fired at the homeowner and missed, but the homeowner fired one shot from his single shot 410 and killed him at about 7 yards away.This incident happened about 10 years ago. I prefer at least a 20 guage, but it is obvious even a 410 is lethal.
 
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Oneoz
If you look back at my post .... I did NOT say anything about SHOTSHELLS in handguns in my post!

Walt ...you win! the 20 ga ain't nutin but a peashooter! Why not get an 8 ga ... with a 2.5 oz zinc slug ...it bust the chinkers off that fox.

Jimmy K
 
'Me ask y'all this......Is 20 gauge right now trending more popular, less popular, or about the same, as 5 or 10 years ago, relative to 12 gauge? I've come to like 20 ga a lot, and the bulk/target shells are the exact same price as 12 ga at Academy, but specialty shells are a bit more than 12s, IIRC.

Right now I've got five 12 gauges, four 20 gauges, one 28 gauge, and one .410 bore. I consider 12 ga to be for home defense, deer, ducks, geese, turkeys, and coyotes. 20 ga is for small ducks, pheasant, quail, dove, rabbits, squirrels. 28 ga is for quail, dove, rabbit, squirrel, & crows. .410 bore is for fun, squirrel, snakes, rats, and close-in crows from a blind.
 
Oh, to the OP: As has been said, when in doubt, get a 12 ga. But a 20 ga will very very likely be all you'll ever need. These two are a lot more similar than different in power/performance.
 
shephard19,

Hope you aren't too confuzzled by all this wrangling.

IMHO your ability to use the gun effectively matters a lot more than what gauge it is. The 20 ga. will do fine- if you will do. The 12 will do fine, too- if you will do. A miss with either of them is still a miss, after all.

There's always a lot of hoo-raw over recoil. It's more of a big deal for some folks than others. If you are physically healthy, have a shotgun that is properly fitted, learn and use correct form/stance/gun mount/etc, then there's no reason you shouldn't be able to successfully handle a 12 ga. just as well as a 20.

But if the 20 that's on the rack already feels right to you, there's little need to look further IMHO. Some of that 'feel' will depend on your prior experience with shotguns, though. And if this is your first purchase, I'd encourage you to get some trigger time on various shotguns before you make up your mind and lay your hard earned $$$ down. Check with family and friends to see if they'll let you try their shotguns sometime. Or see if a range/gun club near you has shotguns for rent. IMHO it's better to make a purchase based on experience than chatter on the Internet.

Happy shopping, and Stay Safe!

lpl
 
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