The other thread got me thinking.
I am sure you are all more familiar with the specifics of the 21 foot rule than I am, but the basics of it are...
From standing flat footed and appearing unarmed, a person can draw a knife and dash 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. This is also roughly the amount of time it takes a well trained police officer (or carrying citizen with good training) to pull an openly carried firearm and fire one shot.
I am going to assume concealed carry would add time to that factor, and we all known 'action beats reaction' which in this case means it will take a split second between your eyes intaking the data of 'he has a knife and is moving my way!' and your brain receiving this data, processing it as INCOMING THREAT, and then process SOLUTION: DRAW AND FIRE and then to finally process GIVE HANDS-ARMS THE COMMAND: COMMENCE DRAW AND FIRE NOW!
But what is the rule for dogs?
To anyone's knowledge, has there been any study about how fast a dog can go from sitting/standing to teeth on? Like for instance a trained police dog, how much distance can it cover in 1.5 seconds?
As we saw above, self defense against dogs can be very complicated. NOTE: PLEASE CONCENTRATE ON SPECIFIC INCIDENTS, OR GENERIC ATTACKS/BEHAVIORS, NOT ON THE LOCKED INCIDENT.
I assume we all agree that you don't have to wait for the criminal to actually stab into flesh before firing.
Do we all agree that in the same manner, we don't have to wait for a dog to actually sink teeth into flesh before firing?
Of course, another complication is that all dogs have teeth, but not all people have weaponry. If you shoot a guy claiming 'he pulled a knife and menaced me at very close range' and then the police find a knife on the corpse, this will be seen as corroborating evidence, because most people don't have knives on them. For a dog, of course the dog will have teeth, that is the standard! So what corroborating evidence can you supply that the dog had barred his teeth and appeared about to attack as much as a man pulling a knife would appear ready to attack?
It is true that most dogs are very territorial, and will raise a ruckus and bare teeth, but never actually leave the yard...this is 99.9% of dogs. But many attacks end up being cases of the dog leaving the yard to attack. From the outside, the behaviors of a normal dog being territorial and a dangerous dog ready and willing to ignore his owner's yard and attack will look nearly identical. How can the average person distinguish between them? Do you need to get a degree in Animal Behavior to spot the tiny distinctions to be justified in using force?
What about the cases where the dog has appropriated public right-of-way as part of his territory? A great example of this would be a side-walk that passes across the front yard. What about someone who has a reasonable reason for being on your property?
Say A person pulls up to a house to sell something, deliver fliers, or ask for directions. Person gets out of car and approaches house, and rings bell. Dog, who had been in the back yard hears the bell and comes charging around the corner teeth bare, snarling. Do you expect the person to submit to the attack simply because they are on the dog's yard? Do you suggest the person try and run for their car maybe 20 yards away? (which could kick the dog into prey pursuit mode) Do you believe the person being on the 'dog's property' needs to wait until he is bitten before he can use force to stop the dog? Can the person simply draw and shoot the dog?
Again, 99.99% of dogs in that situation probably wouldn't bite...but a lot of dog bites at the emergency room come from stories like that.
For the record, I am a HUGE dog fan. However, I also recall my sister when she was about 4 or so getting rushed by a dog and bitten when we were at a public park, by a dog the owner would have sworn 'would never hurt anyone, this dog loves kids!'
Also, we are all familiar with shooting incidents where the shopkeeper or homeowner is forced to defend themselves and in the aftermath it turns out the attacker is killed. At that point you have all his family and relatives and school friends and basketball teammates etc etc coming out and saying 'My boy was a good boy, he never did no harm to nobody! Why'd that guy have to shoot my son, he never been in trouble with the law, he was always fun at parties never caused any trouble, was a great player and teammate!'
We tend to roll our eyes at that. We realize these people are both very biased and ignoring the evidence right in front of them that their son was indeed a scumbag. If a mother can be that wrong about her son, how much credence should we give any dog-owner who states 'my dog would never do that! He's a good dog!' OR, on the flip side, if the stereotypical 'attacker's mother' is correct, and her son's actions are out of character, but happened non-the-less, how much weight can we put in a dog owner's statement of 'my dog would never do that! he's never done it before!'
I am sure you are all more familiar with the specifics of the 21 foot rule than I am, but the basics of it are...
From standing flat footed and appearing unarmed, a person can draw a knife and dash 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. This is also roughly the amount of time it takes a well trained police officer (or carrying citizen with good training) to pull an openly carried firearm and fire one shot.
I am going to assume concealed carry would add time to that factor, and we all known 'action beats reaction' which in this case means it will take a split second between your eyes intaking the data of 'he has a knife and is moving my way!' and your brain receiving this data, processing it as INCOMING THREAT, and then process SOLUTION: DRAW AND FIRE and then to finally process GIVE HANDS-ARMS THE COMMAND: COMMENCE DRAW AND FIRE NOW!
But what is the rule for dogs?
To anyone's knowledge, has there been any study about how fast a dog can go from sitting/standing to teeth on? Like for instance a trained police dog, how much distance can it cover in 1.5 seconds?
As we saw above, self defense against dogs can be very complicated. NOTE: PLEASE CONCENTRATE ON SPECIFIC INCIDENTS, OR GENERIC ATTACKS/BEHAVIORS, NOT ON THE LOCKED INCIDENT.
I assume we all agree that you don't have to wait for the criminal to actually stab into flesh before firing.
Do we all agree that in the same manner, we don't have to wait for a dog to actually sink teeth into flesh before firing?
Of course, another complication is that all dogs have teeth, but not all people have weaponry. If you shoot a guy claiming 'he pulled a knife and menaced me at very close range' and then the police find a knife on the corpse, this will be seen as corroborating evidence, because most people don't have knives on them. For a dog, of course the dog will have teeth, that is the standard! So what corroborating evidence can you supply that the dog had barred his teeth and appeared about to attack as much as a man pulling a knife would appear ready to attack?
It is true that most dogs are very territorial, and will raise a ruckus and bare teeth, but never actually leave the yard...this is 99.9% of dogs. But many attacks end up being cases of the dog leaving the yard to attack. From the outside, the behaviors of a normal dog being territorial and a dangerous dog ready and willing to ignore his owner's yard and attack will look nearly identical. How can the average person distinguish between them? Do you need to get a degree in Animal Behavior to spot the tiny distinctions to be justified in using force?
What about the cases where the dog has appropriated public right-of-way as part of his territory? A great example of this would be a side-walk that passes across the front yard. What about someone who has a reasonable reason for being on your property?
Say A person pulls up to a house to sell something, deliver fliers, or ask for directions. Person gets out of car and approaches house, and rings bell. Dog, who had been in the back yard hears the bell and comes charging around the corner teeth bare, snarling. Do you expect the person to submit to the attack simply because they are on the dog's yard? Do you suggest the person try and run for their car maybe 20 yards away? (which could kick the dog into prey pursuit mode) Do you believe the person being on the 'dog's property' needs to wait until he is bitten before he can use force to stop the dog? Can the person simply draw and shoot the dog?
Again, 99.99% of dogs in that situation probably wouldn't bite...but a lot of dog bites at the emergency room come from stories like that.
For the record, I am a HUGE dog fan. However, I also recall my sister when she was about 4 or so getting rushed by a dog and bitten when we were at a public park, by a dog the owner would have sworn 'would never hurt anyone, this dog loves kids!'
Also, we are all familiar with shooting incidents where the shopkeeper or homeowner is forced to defend themselves and in the aftermath it turns out the attacker is killed. At that point you have all his family and relatives and school friends and basketball teammates etc etc coming out and saying 'My boy was a good boy, he never did no harm to nobody! Why'd that guy have to shoot my son, he never been in trouble with the law, he was always fun at parties never caused any trouble, was a great player and teammate!'
We tend to roll our eyes at that. We realize these people are both very biased and ignoring the evidence right in front of them that their son was indeed a scumbag. If a mother can be that wrong about her son, how much credence should we give any dog-owner who states 'my dog would never do that! He's a good dog!' OR, on the flip side, if the stereotypical 'attacker's mother' is correct, and her son's actions are out of character, but happened non-the-less, how much weight can we put in a dog owner's statement of 'my dog would never do that! he's never done it before!'