22 Hornet/K-Hornet Question

[P51D]

Right on, DaggerDog.

And VernHumphrey, I'm laughing 'cause you're soooo right. The Hornet really IS like a beautiful red-headed woman. And I'm ready to try the washers to get my Lee collet neck sizing die to activate early. I've seen some good pics in previous posts here on THR about the washers. Just looking for some advice on the total thickness for the washers. What works for you?

Thanks

P51D

 

[Kerf]

I read Dagger Dogs statement ...

and I understand there's a diffference between reading and perusing.

Tow ponts:

1.) The Hornet has been around for many years and I have probably owned a couple dozen. I'm a sucker; I love that little cartridge. But, the best thing you can do for it is turn it into a K-Hornet. As mentioned above, there are two areas of concern that can be remedied/improved by re-chambering:head space and case capacity.
The rimmed case headspaces on the rim and as the round is chambered, can cant the cartridge in the chamber causing a different point of impact. If you put a micrometer on the rim and measure the thickness you will notice variations from case to case and sometimes on the same case. Not good for accuracy. With the K-Hornet case you can have it headspace on the shoulder and the problem is solved. Case capacity as above, 'nough said!

2.) Ever try annealing your case necks? After a few firings, (and before reloading) stand the cases up in a flat pan of water with the water right at the intersection of the shoulder and the necks. Heat to red above the water line, and tip the case over in the water to cool. This softens the work hardend brass and prolongs the case life. I neck turn my brass for accuracy and generally get 20-25 uses of the case.

After that, it's time up the barrel and matching the bullet to the barrel. FWIW.

Kerf

 

[dagger dog]

If headspacing on the shoulder for the K, is the accuracy gain, then neck sizing is the the ticket for the rimmed and slope shouldered older brother. With the length of the neck being what it is, run out during bullet seating is a major factor especially when full length resizing.

Most older rifles chambered for the Hornet were not what you would call masterpeices, and a lot were bargian basement types. The chambers were not reamed concentric with the bore and this compounded the run out factor,along with the previously stated problem of case rim thickness differences ,(there are gauges made for 22 rimfire target shooters to measure this difference to segregate their ammo) so fire forming the case to the chamber of these not perfect guns and neck sizing after is a must do for any type of accuracy.

More modern Hornets are free of this problem, and optmizing your load,bullet weight and type,and powder with neck sizing ,usually will give good results.

The Hornet was designed from the start as a VARMINT load and most rifles which in my opinion if it can put the bullet in a 2" circle @100 yds, it is doing what is was intended. This is at normal velocity 2500-2800fps, if you push it faster cases will be stressed and their life is shortened.

Reading Verns' statement about using the case as a dipper for his charges of Lil' Gun, I was surprised when I read in my 10th Edition CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD, that the original factory black powder loading for the 22 WCF was 13 grs FFFg.

Most black powder cartridges were loaded just as Vern stated, by dipping the case full, of one of the three small arms rated powders, Fg ,FFg ,FFFg.

Almost all Hornet shooters have came to the same end, that APPROXIMATLEY 13 grs of Lil' Gun is the sweet spot .

Conclusion, It took modern reloaders (self included) and propellant chemists about 90 years to re-invent this loading for the little 22 caliber smokless wonder, and I'll bet this is just one of many reasons, once the HORNET STINGS It takes a long time for the swelling to go down.

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Just looking for some advice on the total thickness for the washers.

I use two ordinary hardware store washers. You want to size the front half of the neck. The washers should be about as thick as the lower half -- more or less. So just hold your stack of washers up to the neck and see how far the sizing line would move up.

 

[Offfhand]

Wow! Now we're really getting somewhere on K-Hornet accuracy. Many thanks to all. A few more questons: Mr Kerf, you mention turning your brass for accuracy. I'm assuming you mean turning the necks like target shooter do. What size are they before turning? And after? And how do you do this, I mean what kind of tool?
Thanks again, Everyone

 

[dagger dog]

Offhand,

Usually case neck turning is only used with match chambered rifles where the tolerances are kept at a minmium during reaming, turning necks on stock production rifles is moot because of the wide tolerances in ammo and these chambers have such wide variations in neck diameters . The thickness in case necks differ from side to side on each case and the turners shave the thick portion down to the thickness of the thinest side, this supposedly lets the case neck release the bullet equally when the charge is ignited. Also in match chambers the thicker portion of the case neck could jam that side of the case tighter in the chamber causing uneven pressure, to release the bullet.

RCBS sells a neck turner that mounts to the case trimmer, Forster, Wilson offers a hand held which most benchrest and target shooters like because of the "feel" they can attain with the hand held unit.

 

[Offfhand]

Dagger, thanks again for your effore to help, but please read again my question to Mr. Kerf. I was asking specific before and after dimensions. And what kind of tool HE uses. I'm well aware there are several different brands of neck turners, including some, such as K&M and Sinclair, that you didn't mention. Or are you referring to case trimming, rather than turning, as mentioned my Mr Kerf? They are quite different operations. Wilson makes a case trimming tool, but was not aware of them also offering a neck turning tool.
again, my thanks.

 

[Kerf]

neck turning

Offhand, I don’t do a full neck turning, just a partial turning on one side of the neck. Hopefully, this will make the neck of the brass more concentric to the chamber when fired.
Another trick I use is to spin the loaded cartridge for run out and mark the high side with a file on the base of the brass. I usually fill in that score line with magic marker and it is used to orientate the brass during reloading and when firing in the rifle. I also do a partial neck sizing, just enough to grip the bullet tight. Every little bit helps with the finicky Hornet.

Kerf

 

[Kerf]

Offhand,

Yea, I use the L E Wilson neck turning tool which is kinda' "Old School" but it's what I started with and stuck to over the years. I have several of them set up for trimming purposes and neck turning. You can adjust them gradually to take off the amount of brass from the neck you think is necessary and I like the solid lathe turning aspect of the tool. I've never used the hand held type turners, which I'm sure do as good of job as the Wilson, or they wouldn't be so popular on the benchrest circuit. It's just the road I went down.
I also use the Wilson straight line seater, which, IMHO, is the one item that has contributed most in terms of accuracy.
4-5 years ago, I picked up a K-Hornet on a Martini action and it was shooting 3" groups, if you can call three inches a group. (I like the Martini for the fast lock time with their triggers.) Today, after applying all of the above discussed techniques, (and consulting with various witch doctors in the trade) that same rifle is still shooting three inch "groups". Be that consolation to you!

Kerf