.223 Component Suggestions

[Nature Boy]

@DMW1116

Any reloading information source is data, be it published in a book or from Internet forums like this. They each have their value but personal experience trumps all.

I may use a combination of source data to start the load development process but once I’m at the range and send the first round into a target my observations take precedence over any information in a reloading manual or advice from the internet.

 

[kmw1954]

Where is the cutoff for high vs low pressure?

Guess for me that is when I load my 223 with TAC powder and a 69gr bullet and shows signs of cratering 1gr above the start level and the max load is almost 3gr above start. Then at 1.5gr above start I start piercing primers. And these also are loads that are being loaded .040" longer than the suggested length.

 

[DMW1116]

Those are two good instances that illustrate why every responsible reloader says start low and work up.

However there is no published information by the primer manufacturer or reloading manual sources that says CCI 400s should be avoided in 223. There is no pressure value which differentiates high pressure small rifle cartridges from low pressure cartridges. Other cartridges run into the low 50,000 psi range similar to 223 and are not labeled high pressure. They’re not as common either but I would guess there are other reasons for that to be the case.

I’ve had pressure signs early in 308 using Service Rifle data and CCI 34 primers but there is no indication the combination shouldn’t have been fine, particularly related to primer selection. That’s why I started with loads below Hornady’s maximum which were also below Hodgden’s minimum.

My point is there is no way for a new reloader to get this information other than to stumble across it somewhere like here or become an experienced reloader and notice a pattern with several loads that use a certain component.

 

[JEBruns]

Could just accept first hand experience or you could find out first hand for yourself.

But there is also a lot of first hand experience that says CCI 400's are fine in .223.

 

[Nature Boy]

My point is there is no way for a new reloader to get this information other than to stumble across it somewhere like here or become an experienced reloader and notice a pattern with several loads that use a certain component.

Yes, this is undoubtedly true.

 

[kmw1954]

Those are two good instances that illustrate why every responsible reloader says start low and work up.

However there is no published information by the primer manufacturer or reloading manual sources that says .

That is absolutely correct. There is also no definitive published data I have found that defines what or where a Hi pressure is reached. Though it has been widely accepted that in some Savage rifles the firing pin hole to too large or larger than the firing pin which has bee known to present signs of primer cratering. Though at least in my mind any time one started getting pierced primers there is a pressure problem.

 

[kmw1954]

But there is also a lot of first hand experience that says CCI 400's are fine in .223.

Yes, I have 2 Savage bolt rifles, one a model 10 223 and fires #400 primers fine and a Model 11 223 and at mid level loads will start piercing primers. Yet with #450 or Remington 7 1/2 there is no signs with the same load.

 

[DMW1116]

That is absolutely correct. There is also no definitive published data I have found that defines what or where a Hi pressure is reached. Though it has been widely accepted that in some Savage rifles the firing pin hole to too large or larger than the firing pin which has bee known to present signs of primer cratering. Though at least in my mind any time one started getting pierced primers there is a pressure problem.

Do you have a way to measure firing pin protrusion in the two rifles and compare them?

My other more subtle point is there is no differentiation by the primer manufacturer (CCI) or reloading references that some primers have pressure limits lower than expected in any small rifle chamberings. I think Federal might for their standard small rifle primers but they also have primers specifically for ARs to address slam fire concerns.

 

[kmw1954]

Best example I can give is when comparing small pistol primers. It is well know that Federal has the softest primers and CCI has the hardest. Reason the guys with the Race gun pistols with the soft springs use them. Because even with light strikes they go bang.

 

[Nature Boy]

My other more subtle point is there is no differentiation by the primer manufacturer (CCI) or reloading references that some primers have pressure limits lower than expected in any small rifle chamberings

I’d say a bit less than subtle. You’ve repeated it three times.

To me it doesn’t matter. My own observations, anecdotal experiences of many others combined with analysis indicating the thinness of the cup tells me all I need to know. It’s not worth the risk of blanking a primer and ruining a firing pin or busting a trigger.

I also won’t use Winchester LRPs in any load. They run under SAAMI minimum spec in diameter and many folks have sad stories of escaping gas cutting into their bolt face. Yet you can find any number of published reloading manuals indicating the use of WLR primers.

 

[2ndtimer]

I’d say a bit less than subtle. You’ve repeated it three times.

To me it doesn’t matter. My own observations, anecdotal experiences of many others combined with analysis indicating the thinness of the cup tells me all I need to know. It’s not worth the risk of blanking a primer and ruining a firing pin or busting a trigger.

I also won’t use Winchester LRPs in any load. They run under SAAMI minimum spec in diameter and many folks have sad stories of escaping gas cutting into their bolt face. Yet you can find any number of published reloading manuals indicating the use of WLR primers.

Interesting how your own experience with a load that was 10% over Sierra’s maximum load with a similar bullet led you to the conclusion that CCI-400 primers should NEVER be used in an AR or higher pressure load, despite published tested data over decades of their common use in multiple rifles using pressure tested .223 Remington loads.
I guess my question to you would be have you ever loaded anything less than balls to the wall long range competition loads with CCI-400 primers? My post #53 cited a link to Speer current published load data, which you discounted out of hand. And the freshly produced anecdotal information I shared from personal experience less than two weeks ago Post #67 (limited to 5 different loads in two different AR’s using CCI-400 primers at less than maximum loads) is similarly dismissed.
If the OP starts low and carefully works up, I am extremely confident he can find a reasonably accurate, safe and fun load for shooting at 100 yards. Even if he is stuck using thin cupped CCI-400 primers.

 

[Nature Boy]

@2ndtimer

Let’s get something straight here. I’m not telling you or anyone else what they should or shouldn’t do.

I’m saying what I won’t do and explaining why.

I guess my question to you would be have you ever loaded anything less than balls to the wall long range competition loads with CCI-400 primers?

Of course I have.

 

[Cokeman]

I got these primers. They will work, right?

I got the TAC for $28. I thought that was a good deal.

 

[DMW1116]

Definitely will work. TAC is a favorite of many for 223. I use it for 55 grain soft points loads and it seems to pair well with 52 grain Barnes Match Burners. It also works pretty well with 55 grain FMJ, though I’ll probably switch to SW AR Plus due to availability locally.

Those are specifically primers for AR style rifles. I have enough to finish out my supply of RMR HPBT bullets but then I’m out. I’ll switch back to the CCI 400 SRP after that.

 

[Necessary_Nutrient]

The choice to use or not use CCI 400 in AR’s merits debate. They work and look fine so far for me at max 223 pressure and are certainly fine .223 rifle rounds, and appear in Speer online reloading data as noted above

Advising a new reloader that it’s probably be ok to use them in small Pistol rounds is highly questionable. Every loading manual explicitly states NOT to interchange Primers types between Rifle and Pistol, they aren’t the same thickness and there are other factors.

From Western Powders 8.0 manual


PRIMING
Primers come in two standard diameters, large and small. Within these categories
they are further broken down into primers intended for rifles and pistols. Larger
powder charges use magnum primers that provide a hotter flame. Manufacturers
also offer match primers that have been separated by lot for consistent ignition.
Reloading data will stipulate which type to use. Caution is needed here, because
use of primers other than those tested in the published data can increase pressure
dramatically. Pistol and rifle primers are also not safely interchangeable

 

[irishlad]

I shoot mostly the plastic tip varmint bullets from Hornady, Nosler or Sierra, whenever Midway has them on sale. If I want to show out at the range I use the 69 grain Sierra Match King and Lapua brass. Any small rifle primer, but usually a CCI or Remington Benchrest. And any case. I'm using BL-C2 currently. Its slow but its accurate and meters well. I plan to switch over to either Benchmark, Tac or AA2230 the next time I load a batch.

I use Benchmark, works well.

 

[Cokeman]

If inexpensive blammo is what you’re starting with, Berrys make a cheap 55 FMJ. Shooter’s World Tac Rifle or AR Plus. Ramshot XTerminator for powder. Lots of powders to choose. Any small rifle primer will work fine.
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....-grain-fmj-boat-tail-with-cannelure-250-count

Do you know what they charge for shipping on 1000 bullets? When I enter my zip code, it shows $0 for shipping and tax, but also changes the total to $0.

 

[BBarn]

Looks like their shipping calculator is somewhat broken. If you register an account with your delivery address and zip code it might work. Using one of the standard ground shipping services will probably run about $12.

 

[Pete D.]

I have a Colt match target rifle. Twenty inch barrel 1-8” twist. I also have an upper with a twenty inch barrel and a 1-7” twist. Both get the same load. At this point in my life, I only shoot at 100 yards from prone. Too much trouble to get in and out of position. (I am 76) Iron sights only. I load either of two similar bullets….the Sierra MK 77 grainer or the Hornady 75 grainer. Winchester factory primed brass (I bought a factory case some years ago) and Reloader 15.

 

[rdnktrkr]

I prefer sp or hp bullets over fmj, I've found them to be more accurate and worth the 1 or 2 cents more. All but my 50yo 1in12 AR shoots 62 and 69gr bullets around 1moa after tweaking the powder and oal.
Something I like to do is seat the barrel and use a shim and sealant to marry it to the upper. A smooth trigger helps a lot also.

 

[41 Mag]

I've been playing with working up a load for my AR since about this time or maybe a bit earlier last year. I have run just about every make SR primer sold in loads from mild to wild. What I have found with my rifle is that standard CCI and Fed SR will receive a small dent when the mag is inserted and the bolt is released. This will also occur when firing a round and the next is chambered through normal functions.

That said, to date and close to 1k rounds down range, I have had no incidents of a slam fire. Not that it couldn't happen with maybe a bit proud seated primer, but it hasn't. I have moved to using other primers simply as a precaution against it. I've switched over to the mil spec from CCI and found no indentations since.

For powders, the TAC has produced fine accuracy with several different bullets and weights, usually with 5 shot groups hovering around an inch or so at 100yds usually just a bit less. I am also using Shooters World Precision Rifle for 69 - 75gr loads. I got it for a decent price on sale and with no hazmat so figured why not give it a try. All I can say is that it shoots and shoots well. It has edged out the TAC with better groups and velocities with the heavier weights. It cuts range time down significantly when your just tearing a ragged hole in the targets.

I got this rifle specially to take out feral hogs or coyotes at our place in the country. So far it has done well with the 62 and 72gr pills on both. The biggest drawback I've found is trying to decide on just what to use. So far everything from the standard 55gr up to 75gr has done well. I guess it isn't a bad problem to have.