223-crimp or no crimp?

[Rule3]

Well at least they did a test and came up with some results.

You?

You have test results to share, or no?

You posted "someones" from 1998. Where are your test results to share?

All I am saying is we all could post something/results it does not mean it will apply as they say in your rifle or your day or test. Manuals have their test results, doesn't mean when we use them we get the same results.

So based on that "test" does that convince you or anyone that crimping is the solution to the best accuracy?

 

[steve4102]

You posted "someones" from 1998. Where are your test results to share?

Here is one, I'll see if I can dig up some more, lost a lot of photos when my old PC took a dump.

10 rounds each target.
100 yards
Colt AR-15
55gr Midsouth HP No Cannelure
Lee Factory Crimp die

 

[berettaprofessor]

Steve4102, that looks like a clear win for crimped at 26 grains. But before I conclude, were these all fired in a rest or lead sled?

 

[steve4102]

All fired from a rest, this is not the rifle, but it is the bench set up.



I fired five shot groups, my son loaded the mags and told me what target to shoot at. Through the scope I could see the powder charge in grains, but the "crimp" vs "No-crimp" was hidden to me.

This is the first five.



I setteled on 25.8gr 748 with the Lee Factory Crimp and my Colt will shoot Sub-MOA groups all day long with this load.

I also use the Lee Factory Crimp Die for my BAR 300 WSM.

Shoots OK dontcha think.

(3) rounds, 180gr Partition/No Cannelure, 100 yards.



Here is just something I tried one day. I read about Ruger Mini shooters claiming their Mini shoots 1 inch or less with cheap ammo or handloads. Maybe with a small 3 shot sample, but that's normally a fluke, IMO.

So I took my Rugar Mini, (first photo) and ran 20 rounds into the same target at 100 yards. The circle measures 2 inches in diameter.

All loads crimped with the Lee factory Crimp die.

 

[steve4102]

As far as what the BR shooters do and don't do, apples to oranges at best.

They are not using my cheap off the shelf rifle, so the techniques they use in their "High Dollar" rifles have little to no significance to me and my rifles. Kinda like trying to copy the suspension set up and tire performance on an Indy car for my Yugo.

But, with that said, I would be willing to bet, that if I gave a Bench Rest shooter my rifle and let him do his magic at the loading bench to find that perfect load for my rifles, minus the crimp, My crimped loads would outperform his in my rifles.

 

[gwpercle]

Load a group crimped , a group uncrimped and let your rifle tell you which one works best .
Targets don't lie .

 

[j1]

No crimp.

 

[steve4102]

Load a group crimped , a group uncrimped and let your rifle tell you which one works best .
Targets don't lie .

Good point.

...but it's been said on this forum many times, that actual tests like mine and test like this one, http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html , are not statistically valid either by sample size or for whatever reason and are inconclusive, 50 rounds each from three different rifles in three different cartridges is not a valid comparison.

Yet these same naysayers post this test in rebuttal,
claiming it's five shot groups using bullets that were abused and destroyed by Intentional misuse of the tool (LFCD)are valid and "Proof": that the LFCD is evil and should be avoided at all costs.

. Nobody with half a brain would crimp to that level unless they were totally incompetent or intentionally trying to mislead. Yet, there are those here that actually think this is what the LFCD does. News Flash, it is totally adjustable and the above photo is not only abuse of the bullet, I'm guessing that much crimp destroyed the die as well.

 

[hdwhit]

When I started, the reloading manuals, like the Speer Manual (Number 11 from 1987, starting on page 47) said you crimped cartridges that were going to be used in guns with tubular magazines and that for those loads, you should use a bullet that had a cannelure. Since I was loading for a Ruger Mini-14 that used a box magazine and my bullets did not have a cannelure, I skipped the crimping step.

Thousands of rounds later with no failure related to bullet movement, I still don't crimp anything other than .38 Special (158 grain on top of 4.0 grains of Bullseye) and those bullets do have a cannelure and perform much better with a light crimp. By "perform better", I mean the chronograph shows greater consistency in velocity with a light crimp.

 

[carbine85]

I was going to stay out this but..
1) A taper crimp may or may not help accuracy. IMHO it doesn't hurt anything and it doesn't deform bullets. I have pulled bullets after taper crimping and have never seen deformation.
2) A roll crimp is to secure the bullets. It wasn't intended to help accuracy.
If you want to crimp use the taper crimp and try it for yourself.

 

[spitballer]

Consistency has to be the key here, and using the lands of a bolt gun to seat the bullet should provide excellent consistency as long as neck tension is relatively consistent. As for the cannelure itself, it seems to me that it's not going to make a heck of a lot of difference especially after bullet has deformed and conformed to the bore. In fact. breaking up the bearing surface may even be advantageous under certain circumstances. I agree with the old timers who repeatedly advise that technique is more important than miniscule differences in the reload itself.

 

[Slamfire]

Nobody with half a brain would crimp to that level unless they were totally incompetent or intentionally trying to mislead. Yet, there are those here that actually think this is what the LFCD does. News Flash, it is totally adjustable and the above photo is not only abuse of the bullet, I'm guessing that much crimp destroyed the die as well.

Well, News Flash, Speer is only following Lee’s factory provided crimping instructions:





Did anyone notice the part that the Lee crimp die will create its own “cannulure”?

Crimping bullets will deform the bullet, firstly squeezing the lead core, than with increased crimp, actually creating an air gap between the jacket and the lead core, as the different materials have a different Young’s Modulus. Deforming the interior lead core will move the center of gravity outside its axis of rotation, which basically means, the bullet will wobble. This wobble will increase inaccuracy the further you are from the target.

Steve4012 groups’s are laughably large. No one, and I mean no one who is has any sort of National Ranking crimps their bullets.



I have shot with this gentleman, he has won several Long Range segments at Camp Perry and placed in the upper five for the aggregate. He does not crimp his bullets. This is a 20 shot group he fired, prone with a sling, with irons at 100 yards. It was scored as a 200-17X. If he said crimping reduced his group size, he would have credibility, but Steve4012’s groups do not show the same level of marksmanship skill as I see on this target . If Steve4012 wants to make the case that crimping increases accuracy he needs to start winning matches. These matches can be bench rest, long range, across the course, etc, with crimped bullets.

 

[steve4102]

Doubt "he" could win Camp Perry with my off the self $700 AR and I doubt he could develop loads using his BR techniques that shoot better than my crimped ammo, in my rifle.

BTW what the the techniques, procedures and process a BR shooter goes through to find that Magic load?

IOW, how do their techniques a procedures differ from the average Joe?

 

[Reloadron]

I was told awhile back I don't have to crimp for 223 in a bolt gun but I got a lot of bullets with cannelure and began researching can I not crimp them then see a lot of guys saying crimp everything for accuracy and uniformity with bullets and pressure.

most said use a FCD or taper crimp. I'm pretty sure my RCBS dies had a roll crimp.

any thoughts?

See what works for you. Opinions vary on using a crimp. Me? I rely strictly on neck tension and that covers both .223 Remington and .308 Winchester loading for both bolt and gas guns. I am not opposed to crimping and have tried it but it never paid off for me. Nothing to lose by trying it and seeing how it works out for you. I do have the Lee Factory Crimp Dies in .223 Remington and .308 Winchester, I just never use them in those calibers. I do use a heavy roll crimp in calibers like 444 Marlin. See what works best for you with your loads.

Ron

 

[Slamfire]

Doubt "he" could win Camp Perry with my off the self $700 AR and I doubt he could develop loads using his BR techniques that shoot better than my crimped ammo, in my rifle.

BTW what the the techniques, procedures and process a BR shooter goes through to find that Magic load?

IOW, how do their techniques a procedures differ from the average Joe?

I don't know any bench rest shooters, just read what everyone reads on the internet. But, just take a look at the Arizona Benchrest results of bench rest shooters at http://azbrs.com/past-match-results/ . Twenty shot group Grand aggregate sizes of 0.1294 inches. Incredible. I am certain that Bench rest shooters all have different loading techniques, different chambering. What does not work gets squeezed from the system and I am also certain that no benchrest shooter crimps a bullet.

I have met shooters who won the President's 100 and the Service rifle with stock box NM AR15's. These were the NM AR's made by Bushmaster, Armalite, and Rock River. The AR is an inherently accurate platform, given a free floating barrel, a good match barrel, and a good trigger, shooters can shoot half MOA groups with good bullets.

My bud who shot that target, he develops a load at the range and then goes shoot it in matches. If it shoots well, then the load is good. For brass, he buys lapua brass and loads it. He performs no case preparation, no case sorting, etc. Just loads and shoots.

If two shooters have similar good bullets, good barrels, and a good rifles, marksmanship skills are what differentiates the targets . Accuracy comes through marksmanship skills. The shooting community has been educated by Corporate Advertizing bureaus to believe that the lack of practice and marksmanship skills can be compensated by "buying" esoteric equipment. Read any Gun Magazine, some of the current ads say such things as "matches are won on the reloading bench", that is, you can buy accuracy. This is not true, money will not compensate for skill and judgment on the firing line.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

No crimp.

 

[morcey2]

Saying "I don't crimp because benchrest shooters don't" is like saying "I don't run coolant in my car because top-fuel dragsters don't" in most cases.

Most of my guns are military surplus guns with large chambers and long throats. Lots of OEM barrels have long throats. Benchrest guns usually have very tight chambers, leades cut for a specific bullet, and barrels that cost more most of the cars that I've ever owned. (says more about the cars than the barrels.) For my rifles, I crimp for some of them, but not others. I let the gun tell me what it likes. When a rifle goes from consistently shooting > 3" groups to 1.5" groups with the only change being whether the bullet is crimped during the load work-up, that's good enough for me IN THAT RIFLE.

I have 1 AR that I load for and I don't crimp for that one. (223 wylde chamber.)

If the rifle shoots well without a crimp, don't crimp. If it shoots noticeably better with a crimp, then crimp to your heart's content. Just realize that brass life will be somewhat shorter because of more work to the neck.

Matt

 

[steve4102]

Saying "I don't crimp because benchrest shooters don't" is like saying "I don't run coolant in my car because top-fuel dragsters don't" in most cases.

I like that, thanks.

 

[Slamfire]

Saying "I don't crimp because benchrest shooters don't" is like saying "I don't run coolant in my car because top-fuel dragsters don't" in most cases.

I don't crimp because it does not improve accuracy and it deforms the bullet, which is detrimental to accuracy. The fact of the matter is, no good shooter in any center fire rifle sport, where accuracy determines the winner, crimps. So, no one in Bench rest, no one in Service rifle, no one in F Class, no one in Mid Range, no one at Long Range, no Palma shooter. If I could think of additional highpower center fire rifle classes, I would add them to the list.

Blackpowder shooters crimp apparently and I am ignoring that sport. I have heard of MOA to sub MOA groups by these guys with lead bullets and black powder, and that is just amazing. You really, really want to crimp your bullets, blackpowder is the sport for you.

 

[steve4102]

I don't crimp because it does not improve accuracy and it deforms the bullet, which is detrimental to accuracy.

Please post your own personal test results.

I/we would be interesting in seeing your actual test targets supporting your claim above.

Thanks.

 

[Walkalong]

No need to.

The fact of the matter is, no good shooter in any center fire rifle sport, where accuracy determines the winner, crimps. So, no one in Bench rest, no one in Service rifle, no one in F Class, no one in Mid Range, no one at Long Range, no Palma shooter. If I could think of additional highpower center fire rifle classes, I would add them to the list.

They don't use any techniques not available to everyone.

They do use the best actions/barrels that can be afforded. They do use the best bullets.

Jackets that are damaged and not concentric will not be as accurate. Concentricity of the jacket is affected in a negative way by crimping. That is bad. If the lead inside the jacket is not perfectly round it will not fly as straight. Match bullets use the best jackets that can be had. The best are the most consistent in thickness all the way around, so the lead core is as round as possible. If crimped, that changes.


That does not mean that some loads in some rifles will not show an increase in accuracy from a crimp, but the best loads that can be had will not.

In general, crimping is bad for accuracy. Period.

And I am not going to try to prove it to anyone. Believe what you will, and load like you want.

 

[Ironicaintit]

My unscientific tests, in my rifles, with my loads....indicate that if I have a batch of very good and consistent brass, a crimp throws a wrench into the accuracy.

If I'm using mixed headstamps brass, each one with a different amount of mileage on it, then a crimp helps to tighten things up.

I kinda figure it has to do with varying degrees of neck tension, and how much pressure builds before the bullet starts to head down the barrel. If the bullet starts to fly at different points within the pressure curve, then the bullet may become "out of time" with the barrel harmonics, and you may be ahead or behind the accuracy node.

A crimp is a bandaid to restore some semblance of consistency to when the bullet releases.
That's my take on it.

That being said, I have some small batches of sorted brass that I will build for a bolt action that I do not crimp.

For the most part, wringing the last iota of accuracy out of a round isn't my cup of tea.
I do apply a light taper crimp to all of my bottlenecks, because I don't want to hafta handle them gingerly, and I don't want to worry about things moving around during the normal course of rugged use in a self feeder.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Btw, I think properly annealed cases are more of a solid cure, as it restores the brass ability to retain a "size".

But, I never even finished high school, so take that for what it's worth

 

[steve4102]

No need to.

The Proof is in the Pudding.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html

 

[Walkalong]

The Proof is in the Pudding.

that, as I posted, some loads can benefit from a crimp, but the best loads will not. There are multitudes of shooters proving that, not just one test.

I know you are a believer, and more notably, a believer in crimping with the FCD for rifles. That's OK, it's just wrong as a blanket statement.

Mr Lee is a very bright fellow, and one of his gifts was advertising.