223 crimping

[lefteye42]

New @ loading 223 Rem for AR15 (5.56 & 1 in 9 twist stamped on receiver). Getting conflicting advice on crimp or no crimp. My concern is safety & reliability.
On cannelure bullets, is taper crimp okay; or light roll crimp?
On non-cannelure, is taper crimp best? Just trying to get it right, so advice is welcome. Thanks.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Rifle cartridges do not need to be crimped unless used in a tube magazine like in a levergun. I do however put a light factory crimp on the ammo made for an AR style rifle and for my M1... It us not necessary there either but I do it anyway.

You do not use roll crimps on bottle neck rifle cartridges like the .223. If you crimp use a light taper crimp.

 

[Fire_Moose]

I've loaded and shot around 1k 223 rounds so far with no crimp and no problems. I do spot check every now and then after seating the bullet, just press the round really hard into the area on my bench with all the divots.

 

[SARuger]

I use the LEE FCD on my Mini 14 loads, just a light crimp, to keep the bullet from jumping and jamming the action. I test a round every once in a while to make sure I can't push the bullet into the case. Measure, push against the work bench, measure again.

When I did my load work ups, I used the same amount of crimp. Accuracy is very good, MOA at 100 with 50g and 55g VMAX and a non modified rifle.

 

[Grumulkin]

So, have you who crimp ever had evidence that the bullets were moving because of recoil? My guess would be no. In loading for rifle semiautos in 223, 30/06 and 308 I don't crimp and have never had bullets move until they were meant to.

 

[MtnCreek]

I have, but that was due to improper neck tension from work hardened necks. Not something a crimp should be used to fix.

Op, If you do decide to crimp, pay close attention to case length. Most crimp dies will not tolerate long cases and can bulge the shoulder/body causing the cartridge to not go fully into battery. It can also make for a stuck rd in the chamber that can be difficult to extract. The Lee Factory Crimp is a collet type crimp and is not picky about case length.

 

[Walkalong]

With blasting ammo/plinking ammo with FMJ I crimp for the same reason the military does. With a light roll crimp you need trimmed brass and consistent canellures. Not like the ones pictured. A light taper crimp is much more forgiving. It is easy to buckle the shoulder a hair with a roll crimp when things don't line up right or you apply too much.

For any decent bullets that I expect some accuracy from I do not crimp.

As posted, you will only have trouble trying to roll crimp with cannelures like these that are all over the place.

These shot like crap too, imagine that. Perhaps Winchester does a better job these days (Dunno), but the gold standard of 55 Gr FMJ seems to be the Hornady these days.

 

[JimKirk]

I don't crimp any of my AR ammo .... if I had a taper crimp die ...I probably would put a light touch just to smooth out any edge that may have formed .... not that it needed ....

 

[kingmt]

I don't crimp any rifle rounds. The only problem I've had is those junky pulled down 308 or 223 fmj bullets which was easily fixed by just flipping the bullet over. The added bonus is that they shoot better also. The only way I can get a good 223(.224") bullet to move is ether in the press or with a collet on the bullet to pull them.

 

[Blue68f100]

I don't crimp any of my rifle rounds. Not needed and it can hurt your accuracy, by damaging the bullet. Never had a bullet move under recoil either. If your neck tension is right there is no reason to. If it's not, the crimp may not do you any good in securing the bullet. Neck tension holds the bullet. Like already said if your going to crimp the brass need to be the same length, the exception is the LFCD.

Don't waste your time doing it. Not needed.

 

[Rule3]

This question comes up all the time and will continue to do so. Yes, there is conflicting answers.

The definitive answer on crimping 556 semi auto is , Yes, No, sometimes, Maybe.

Most manuals will say to crimp for semi autos.

If you are new to 55.6 semi autos and no positive about the neck tension use a bullet with a cannelure and taper crimp. If you get a round that the bullet sets back you will have problems,

See Walkalongs post #7 above.

 

[au_prospector]

I once tried to crimp to the cannelure of .223 and it only caused problems with deformations where the shoulder meets the case body. Most say it is not needed and they are right in my opinion. I use Boat Tail bullets so there is not a need to flare the brass which would cause a need to close the flare.

 

[hdwhit]

Getting conflicting advice on crimp or no crimp. My concern is safety & reliability.

The reloading manuals say that using canellured bullets and crimping them in is required for guns with tubular magazines or where the recoil could cause the bullet to move further into the case (thus reducing case volume and increasing pressure). If you don't have either situation then crimping is optional.

With respect to .223 Remington, I apply a light taper crimp to canellured bullets. And when I get bullets like Walkalong shows in post #7, I sort them so that I have consistent alignment of the canellure and adjust my seating die for each batch. If the bullet is not canellured, I do not crimp.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I once tried to crimp to the cannelure of .223 and it only caused problems with deformations where the shoulder meets the case body. Most say it is not needed and they are right in my opinion. I use Boat Tail bullets so there is not a need to flare the brass which would cause a need to close the flare.

I never flare any bottle neck rifle case even when loading a flat base bullet, you do?

 

[Bart B.]

Sierra Bullets proved back in the '60's that any crimp on their bullets degraded accuracy.

Today, they make a 22 caliber 77 grain HPMK bullet with a crimping knurl in it because ignorant customers insisted they do that or they wouldn't buy that bullet 'cause their AR rifles in .223 Rem needed it as stated in most everything in print. Meanwhile they test that bullet without any crimp 'cause it shoots better that way. Just like that same bullet without the crimp.

No commercial centerfire rifle match ammo has crimped in bullets as far as I know. One of the arsenals making 30-06 match ammo decades ago learned that so they not only quit crimping them in, they quit turning a cannelure groove in those 172-gr FMJBT precision machine gun bullets developed back in the mid 1920's.

If crimping your bullets for semiautos is needed for best accuracy, so be it. Help's available if you're willing to learn. Richard Lee's claim crimping making bullet shoot straighter was based on his wisdom contradicting what folks shooting bullets much more accurate than he ever did. He couldn't comprehend what the match winners and record setters were doing to make bullets shoot strait.

I've been called every name in the bad book for not even testing my ammo with crimped in bullets. By the same token, nobody championing the crimping process has ever posted the name of any match rifle winner in any competitive discipline shooting smallest groups with case mouths crimped in any way to bullets. Some people figure out bad stuff that'll happen before doing something.

 

[Rule3]

And.................................

We are off and running again...............................

 

[kingmt]

I never flare any bottle neck rifle case even when loading a flat base bullet, you do?

I have when I was loading steel cased & flat bottom jacketed bullets but not enough to have to crimp. It just got pushed out the same as the rest of the case. The same with the few times I loaded lead.

 

[SARuger]

I should add that I do not flare, even with flat base projectile's. Never had the need

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I crimp all my 5.56 handloads using a Lee Factory Crimp Die to mimimize the risk of bullet setback during chambering. All my handloads are at 5.56 pressure. I crimp for surety.

 

[Hondo 60]

Rifle cartridges do not need to be crimped unless used in a tube magazine like in a levergun.

Need?? that's an awful strong word.

According to "The AR-15" by Patrick Sweeney, he fired crimped & uncrimped 223s
The crimped ones were much more accurate.

So I crimp - a little heavier with cannelured bullets, lighter with non-cannelure.

 

[firewrench044]

Bart B --
The US military demanded that the MK 262 load that Black Hills Ammo was developing for them
was to have a cannalure and be crimped, so Black Hills and Sierra under protest, made and is manufacturing the
77gr Match King bullet with a cannalure
( much to the delight of crimpers everywhere )

( I do not handle any ammunition as severely as the way the military does, so I do not crimp 223 )
( tried it in several calibers in load development and found it only degrades accuracy )

 

[Bart B.]

The US military demanded that the MK 262 load that Black Hills Ammo was developing for them was to have a cannalure and be crimped, so Black Hills and Sierra under protest, made and is manufacturing the
77gr Match King bullet with a cannalure ( much to the delight of crimpers everywhere )

Thanks for confirming what I'd heard about. Some elements of the military knew crimped in bullets hurt accuracy long before that.

When the M16 was declared a service rifle by the DCM eligible for Excellence in Competition (Leg) Matches in early 1971 for the Nationals at Camp Perry, the three service teams all used Sierra 52-gr match bullets in new cases with some powder charge. None crimped in bullets. I had called Sierra's ballistic tech, Martin Hull, to ask what powder charge to use in the match barrels John Clerke made for the USN Rifle Team. I and another team member loaded all the ammo with primed .223 Remington new cases and IMR4895 powder. No crimp was used as both men insisted that would hurt accuracy. Our tests with that ammo was about MOA at 300 yards, same as 7.62 M118 match ammo in M14 and M1 match rifles. No bullet shift in loading or from recoil.

We talked with the US Army and USMC Teams about crimping case mouths on bullets which none of us used at the 1971 Nationals. And laughed knowing many people would insist it be done. All of them ignorant of the facts that our 30 caliber rifle's greater recoil an heavier bullets didn't need crimped in bullets; why would 5.56 NATO ammo need crimped in bullets in milder rifle shocks in its rifles in competition?

Military service ammo has crimped in bullets to survive rough handling and shipping. The cases are thicker and therefore will survive the same environments and function reliably in combat environments. Bullet pull forces are specified. The .223 Rem loads the USN team used had pull weights of about 23(?) pounds as I measured them as best remembered.

From this spec for USA military small arms ammo, page 14:

http://everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL-SPECS-MIL-P/download.php?spec=MIL-P-3984J.008537.PDF

4.5.2.1.1 Bullet pull test. To assure that the sample test cartridges have been properly assembled and crimped a bullet Pull test shall be performed on 20 random samples of the test cartridges for the first article test and all production lot testing. The force required to extract the bullet from the cartridge case shall not be less than 45 pounds (The 7.62MFl, M852 and M118 Cartridges, shall not be crimped and the force required to extract the bullet from the cartridge case shall not be less than 10 pounds) . If any of the 20 samples does not meet the force requirements, the test sample is unsuitable and is to be remanufactured and retested.

 

[spitballer]

I never use a crimp, but I only load for a single shot target rifle. FWIW it seems to me a crimp would be a small price to pay for rugged dependability in an autoloader.

 

[glc24]

I wasn't going to crimp, but thought if I could get it close to factory, then I'd do it. I just use Redding steel dies. Set the seat, then fooled with the crimp. I think it worked out OK.

 

[Walkalong]

I think it worked out OK.

Indeed. Nice looking crimp.