I recently bought a Keltec P17 and love the little gun, very accurate and so far flawless in shooting. I carry a G3c 9mm and my wife has also been practicing with my other G3c and she is thinking of carrying soon as well. After shooting the Keltec, she has fell in love with it and now wants to carry it and not the G3c. She does have some trouble with the G3c as she is recoil sensitive and doesn't like shooting it very long at a time. The Keltec, she shoots 50 rounds and wants more. What do y'all think about the Keltec P17 as a defensive handgun? Thanks for any help.
22lr carry for defense??
- Thread starter old fart
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Jim Watson
Member
Better than nothing, if that is all she can handle, etc., etc., etc.
There are New and Improved .22 defense loads on the market.
I will try some myself. I don't have gelatin but I do have a chronograph.
There are New and Improved .22 defense loads on the market.
I will try some myself. I don't have gelatin but I do have a chronograph.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
I always think of some sort of centerfire .32 before bottoming out into .22 LR territory for defense. Something like .32 ACP, .32 S&W Long, .32 H&R Mag, etc.
My wife has a Ruger LCRx in .327 federal mag and keeps it stuffed with the softer recoiling .32 H&R Mag.
My wife has a Ruger LCRx in .327 federal mag and keeps it stuffed with the softer recoiling .32 H&R Mag.
bannockburn
Member
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This probably wouldn't appear on anyone's all-time CCW list but if this is all I have at the time, I wouldn't feel all that "unarmed".
Monac
Member
Here's a personal anecdote: I do not carry a gun. About a month ago, I was walking home from my office to my apartment, which is about 2 blocks away in an urban neighborhood, with bars and apartments. I have been doing this for decades, at all hours. This time it was between 2am and 3am, which is not uncommon for me. I encountered one burly white guy walking down the sidewalk toward me. He was wobbling, and he looked sullen. I did not speak to him, but I moved over toward the curb and raised my hand in a sort of wave of greeting, but I didn't smile. He took objection to that, said something I don't remember, and kind of half-punched, half-shoved me off the sidewalk and into the street. I weigh about 240 pounds (none of it muscle). It takes quite a bit to shove me. I was so startled I didn't do anything, and after one more dirty look, he just kept on going.
The thought that was uppermost in my mind, once I started thinking again, was that if I had a gun, I would NOT want to shoot him with a 22, a 25, a 32 Long, a 32 ACP, or a 380. Maybe not even a 38 Special. What I would have wanted was a 9mm Parabellum at a minimum, and a 40 S&W would have been better. He was solid, he was strong, he was mean, and he was drunk, at least to some extent. I thought a small gun would just piss him off without stopping him.
That is the only physical encounter I have ever had where I wanted a gun. I am in my 60's. I wanted a gun big enough to have a real effect, and I would have bet against my ability to make head shots.
Lots of people have far more personal experience than I do, and even more have read and thought more deeply about this subject than I have, so this does not mean a lot. It is just what I think. Against a fair number of the people likely to mess with you, you cannot rely on a gun as a deterrent. They are not in the state of mind to think things over.
Incidentally, if I ever get another 22 target pistol, I would like to get a P-17. I am glad to hear you like yours. I would especially like it if I could fit a red-dot sight on it, because my eyes are not so hot any more.
PS - I did not call the police about this. It did not seem significant enough, because I was in no real danger; the guy just let it go. All they would do is give him a ticket, if they could find him by the time they got there. I was not even bruised, just shook up. But it made me think.
The thought that was uppermost in my mind, once I started thinking again, was that if I had a gun, I would NOT want to shoot him with a 22, a 25, a 32 Long, a 32 ACP, or a 380. Maybe not even a 38 Special. What I would have wanted was a 9mm Parabellum at a minimum, and a 40 S&W would have been better. He was solid, he was strong, he was mean, and he was drunk, at least to some extent. I thought a small gun would just piss him off without stopping him.
That is the only physical encounter I have ever had where I wanted a gun. I am in my 60's. I wanted a gun big enough to have a real effect, and I would have bet against my ability to make head shots.
Lots of people have far more personal experience than I do, and even more have read and thought more deeply about this subject than I have, so this does not mean a lot. It is just what I think. Against a fair number of the people likely to mess with you, you cannot rely on a gun as a deterrent. They are not in the state of mind to think things over.
Incidentally, if I ever get another 22 target pistol, I would like to get a P-17. I am glad to hear you like yours. I would especially like it if I could fit a red-dot sight on it, because my eyes are not so hot any more.
PS - I did not call the police about this. It did not seem significant enough, because I was in no real danger; the guy just let it go. All they would do is give him a ticket, if they could find him by the time they got there. I was not even bruised, just shook up. But it made me think.
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NIGHTLORD40K
Member
Given the inherent unreliability of rimfire cartridges and their vulnerability to heat, vibration, and humidity- I would prefer a DA revolver for .22 carry, or at a minimum, a hammer fired auto with restrike capability.
My youngest is recoil sensitive and, although a proficient rifle shooter, is still not confident with even a .380 centerfire handgun. Until she gets there, I turned her on to a 2.5" HiStandard Sentinal DA revolver. It's lightweight, has decent sights, and with 9 Stingers on tap mitigates the risk of a misfire.
Got a couple boxes of 29gr. Federal Punch on the way which are optimized for short barrels.
Though the Sentinal is long out of production, the Ruger LCR or S&W 317 would check most of the same boxes.
My youngest is recoil sensitive and, although a proficient rifle shooter, is still not confident with even a .380 centerfire handgun. Until she gets there, I turned her on to a 2.5" HiStandard Sentinal DA revolver. It's lightweight, has decent sights, and with 9 Stingers on tap mitigates the risk of a misfire.
Got a couple boxes of 29gr. Federal Punch on the way which are optimized for short barrels.
Though the Sentinal is long out of production, the Ruger LCR or S&W 317 would check most of the same boxes.
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chicharrones
needs more ammo
When in a threatening situation, most folks want something more powerful than they have to defend themselves.
Reminds me of a time long ago, when I prepared myself for a threatened "onslaught" at my 1st house and my only long gun was my SKS in 7.62x39. In that moment, I thought how insufficient that 10-round fixed magazine was and how I wished I had a gun with higher capacity quick change magazines.
I'm sure we all wish we could have the power of an erupting volcano with us for defense, but volcanoes are hard to control and hard to carry.
With my hands, especially my right hand, showing signs of age, and being affected by wear and tear, I can foresee the possibility of carrying or otherwise using defensive weapons that chamber .22 LR. If a firearms hurts my hands, I will not be likely to train with it. If a firearm actually damages my hands, I will not train with it. If I do not train with it, I should not carry it. My only .22 LR firearm, at present, is an S&W K-Frame Model 17-4, which has almost zero recoil, and is not too heavy to carry, but, perhaps, someday, depending upon how my body ages, its DA trigger pull could become a challenge, or, its size or weight could become problems.
jar
Contributing Member
I'm one of the silly folk that feel adequately prepared regardless of the caliber of cartridge carried at the time. Honestly, of all the risks I face daily physical confrontation with another human is way way way way way way down the list. Sure, center fire ammo is more reliable still than rim fire, but not by very much. And I do practice dealing with non-fire with my 22lr pistols and when it comes to my most often carried 22lr it will be a double action revolver.
I've never been close to needing to draw a firearm to deal with another human and only a very few times when it came to animals. In the animal instances it was always slow developing or simply warning/threatening (rattle snake) behavior and I had lots of time to either draw my firearm or simply change my route and think long and hard before considering firing. A few instances were NoLegs in places where they posed a threat particularly to children (under the porch, under steps, in bushes near kids playing) and the others feral dogs in the desert and once a mommy bear with cubs but fairly far away and both of us aware of the other. Twice though I've been in human encounters where the other people on seeing I was armed changed plans and went their own way.
I've never been close to needing to draw a firearm to deal with another human and only a very few times when it came to animals. In the animal instances it was always slow developing or simply warning/threatening (rattle snake) behavior and I had lots of time to either draw my firearm or simply change my route and think long and hard before considering firing. A few instances were NoLegs in places where they posed a threat particularly to children (under the porch, under steps, in bushes near kids playing) and the others feral dogs in the desert and once a mommy bear with cubs but fairly far away and both of us aware of the other. Twice though I've been in human encounters where the other people on seeing I was armed changed plans and went their own way.
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If the size and weight are not issues, for carry, but, a DA trigger stroke becomes a problem, well, I have been considering something like a Ruger Single Six or Single Ten, to use as a fun gun, anyway. The larger hammer spur, compared to a typical DA revolver’s hammer spur, would facilitate thumb-cocking.
My right hand is already having problems with firmly gripping some firearms. A firm grip is necessary for the reliable functioning of some autos. I am able to firmly grip a weapon with my healthier left hand, but if using an autoloader, that means my gimpier right hand would have to run the slide. So, I generally look to revolvers as being a more-logical path, but, autos that have easy-to-run slides, or, can be loaded by tipping-up the barrel, such as some Beretta pistols, would remain candidates. A tall-profile rear sight, or an optic, can be used as a contact point, to enable running a slide. So, I have not given-up on rimfire autos.
My right hand is already having problems with firmly gripping some firearms. A firm grip is necessary for the reliable functioning of some autos. I am able to firmly grip a weapon with my healthier left hand, but if using an autoloader, that means my gimpier right hand would have to run the slide. So, I generally look to revolvers as being a more-logical path, but, autos that have easy-to-run slides, or, can be loaded by tipping-up the barrel, such as some Beretta pistols, would remain candidates. A tall-profile rear sight, or an optic, can be used as a contact point, to enable running a slide. So, I have not given-up on rimfire autos.
Dan-O
Member
Depends on the firearm, and would only consider it with high quality high velocity ammo.
C-grunt
Member
From my experience investigating shootings with 22lr I would be looking at the newer offerings that are actually jacketed or use a hardened bullet.
Ive seen several cases where the 22lr bullet simply shattered as soon as it encountered bone and in a couple cases even failed to break the bone. Ive also seen cases where the 22lr punched right through heavy bone even out of small pistol barrels.
If I were going to carry a 22lr I would want the strongest bullet I could find.
Ive seen several cases where the 22lr bullet simply shattered as soon as it encountered bone and in a couple cases even failed to break the bone. Ive also seen cases where the 22lr punched right through heavy bone even out of small pistol barrels.
If I were going to carry a 22lr I would want the strongest bullet I could find.
AlexanderA
Member
IMO, .22 rimfire is not good as a defensive round. I mean, if that's all you have, use it, but there are better choices. However, in the right hands, .22 rimfire could excel as an offensive round (such as in an assassin's pistol). But stealth and pre-planning are not hallmarks of defensive use.
Shawn Dodson
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"Aggressive action by a determined adversary can be stopped reliably and immediately using a handgun only by a shot that disrupts the brain or upper spinal cord. Even the most disruptive heart wound cannot be relied upon to prevent aggression before 10 to 15 seconds has elapsed.
"Given this limitation, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels in the torso causing circulatory collapse is the fastest and only other reliable mechanism available to the handgun user." -- Col. Martin Fackler, M.D., "Wound Ballistics Workshop, FBI Academy, September 15-17, 1987, '9mm vs .45 Auto'".
SC Trooper Mark Coates collapsed 20 seconds after being shot by a single bullet fired from a .22 LR mini-revolver during a traffic stop. The bullet cut a major vessel in the torso.
Fackler's observation of "10-15 seconds" and Coates' reaction to being shot proves that what you hit is more important than what you hit with.
A larger diameter caliber simply provides a little more margin of error for shot placement.
"Given this limitation, massive bleeding from holes in the heart or major blood vessels in the torso causing circulatory collapse is the fastest and only other reliable mechanism available to the handgun user." -- Col. Martin Fackler, M.D., "Wound Ballistics Workshop, FBI Academy, September 15-17, 1987, '9mm vs .45 Auto'".
SC Trooper Mark Coates collapsed 20 seconds after being shot by a single bullet fired from a .22 LR mini-revolver during a traffic stop. The bullet cut a major vessel in the torso.
Fackler's observation of "10-15 seconds" and Coates' reaction to being shot proves that what you hit is more important than what you hit with.
A larger diameter caliber simply provides a little more margin of error for shot placement.
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BLACKHAWKNJ
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A 22 beats feet, fists and foul language, but for carry only as a BUG of last resort, deep undercover. As noted, 32 is the absolute bare minimum. A 22 can be pretty effective against eyes, the throat, other vulnerable spots, against thick clothing, muscle...?
I have a small hobby horse farm and occasionally have to dispatch raccoons, opossums, and ground hogs. I’m surprised by how many rounds of 22LR I need to put the animal out of my misery.
Generally, the opossums and raccoons are trapped and destroyed. The shots are point blank in these cases.
I’m moving up to a 327 Fed Mag round loaded to 32 H&R Mag levels for my next encounter.
Point is, 22LR is better than nothing but it probably does not do much more than aggravate the opposition.
P.S. Opossums carry diseases that are deadly to horses. Raccoons are just plain nasty. Ground hogs compromise slabs and foundations with their burrows.
Generally, the opossums and raccoons are trapped and destroyed. The shots are point blank in these cases.
I’m moving up to a 327 Fed Mag round loaded to 32 H&R Mag levels for my next encounter.
Point is, 22LR is better than nothing but it probably does not do much more than aggravate the opposition.
P.S. Opossums carry diseases that are deadly to horses. Raccoons are just plain nasty. Ground hogs compromise slabs and foundations with their burrows.
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1. keep and bear a handgun.
2. pick one that is pleasant (financially & physically) to practice & train with alot.
3. be prepared (physically & emotionally) to lawfully shoot a life threatening predator.
4. put lots of rounds on target, then reload.
5. get out of danger, either by removing yourself or the predator.
6. life threatening confrontations end poorly (physically, emotionally, legally, even financially) for all parties.
7. so, avoid dangerous situations as much as possible in the first instance.
8. regardless of who you are and what you carry, there are no guarantees.
nothing about caliber, nothing about one-shot stops. let’s assume that we are discussing normal, responsible civilians who live decent lives in decent places. if you have a high risk lifestyle that either often rubs up against some aspect of the criminal justice system or is in the northern woods with four legged apex predators at hand then my humble thoughts are irrelevant.
as for using a 22lr handgun for protection… most of have budgets. an already familiar & liked, $200 22lr semiautomatic pistol that reliably eats $5/50 ammo is a more realistic proposition than an unknown $700 327mag revolver that eats $30/50 ammo.
until special purpose ammo has a proximity fuse or homing device stick with cci minimags (or similar proven & common ammo) for your 22lr handgun, for practice and carry. good enough in actual use is good. successive 3” double taps aimed at the navel are good. “getting off the x” in a life threatening confrontation is good.
most of us with gray hair now started out as youngsters on 22lr, as we age out most of us will likely end up with 22lr as being all that we can handle. anyone scoffing, please get back to us in 30-40 years when your infirmities and fixed income both kick in hard.
mrs. o.f. is to be commended.
2. pick one that is pleasant (financially & physically) to practice & train with alot.
3. be prepared (physically & emotionally) to lawfully shoot a life threatening predator.
4. put lots of rounds on target, then reload.
5. get out of danger, either by removing yourself or the predator.
6. life threatening confrontations end poorly (physically, emotionally, legally, even financially) for all parties.
7. so, avoid dangerous situations as much as possible in the first instance.
8. regardless of who you are and what you carry, there are no guarantees.
nothing about caliber, nothing about one-shot stops. let’s assume that we are discussing normal, responsible civilians who live decent lives in decent places. if you have a high risk lifestyle that either often rubs up against some aspect of the criminal justice system or is in the northern woods with four legged apex predators at hand then my humble thoughts are irrelevant.
as for using a 22lr handgun for protection… most of have budgets. an already familiar & liked, $200 22lr semiautomatic pistol that reliably eats $5/50 ammo is a more realistic proposition than an unknown $700 327mag revolver that eats $30/50 ammo.
until special purpose ammo has a proximity fuse or homing device stick with cci minimags (or similar proven & common ammo) for your 22lr handgun, for practice and carry. good enough in actual use is good. successive 3” double taps aimed at the navel are good. “getting off the x” in a life threatening confrontation is good.
most of us with gray hair now started out as youngsters on 22lr, as we age out most of us will likely end up with 22lr as being all that we can handle. anyone scoffing, please get back to us in 30-40 years when your infirmities and fixed income both kick in hard.
mrs. o.f. is to be commended.
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1. Have a gun - 22 meets this basic criteria.
2. Be proficient with the gun - she is recoil sensitive and doesn't like shooting it very long at a time - Unlikely she would shoot more than a magazine in SD unless she carries a spare, is she good for a magazine? Could she practice more and become more comfortable with a 9mm? (Some 9mm pistols recoil more than others).
3. Variables under our control, more or less, are capacity and caliber. The variable that is not under our control is exacting shot placement; because, unlike paper targets attackers can move and when defending one's life the defender is going to be under stress that may interfere with making good hits. "Its all about shot placement"
and that is a variable that will be determined when fighting for your life.
4. Hope to stop threat(s) before they are able to inflict injury or death to the defender. 22lr does not have ASAP incapacitation potential on par with a good 9mm HP assuming same shot(s) placement. If one shoots attacker(s) and they are not quickly incapacitated the attacker(s) may still be able to inflict injury or death, whether they die later is little help.
22lr "better than nothing"? Yes
Is that the best one can do? ?
2. Be proficient with the gun - she is recoil sensitive and doesn't like shooting it very long at a time - Unlikely she would shoot more than a magazine in SD unless she carries a spare, is she good for a magazine? Could she practice more and become more comfortable with a 9mm? (Some 9mm pistols recoil more than others).
3. Variables under our control, more or less, are capacity and caliber. The variable that is not under our control is exacting shot placement; because, unlike paper targets attackers can move and when defending one's life the defender is going to be under stress that may interfere with making good hits. "Its all about shot placement"
and that is a variable that will be determined when fighting for your life.4. Hope to stop threat(s) before they are able to inflict injury or death to the defender. 22lr does not have ASAP incapacitation potential on par with a good 9mm HP assuming same shot(s) placement. If one shoots attacker(s) and they are not quickly incapacitated the attacker(s) may still be able to inflict injury or death, whether they die later is little help.
22lr "better than nothing"? Yes
Is that the best one can do? ?
jmorris
Member
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Whenever I carry a gun I really hope I don't need for SD, its still a 25 acp just because they always go "bang" and I simply can't say that about rimfire rounds.
Why would you begin to think that any of that would have any bearing on what you would you would need should deadly force be necessary in the gravest extreme?
chicharrones
needs more ammo
Here’s another thought.
If she can successfully shoot the G3c, but does appreciate the lower recoil of the P17 in .22LR, how about trying a S&W Shield EZ in .380? It’s the same size as the P17.
doubleh
Member
Come on. Haven't you learned from movies and TV that almost everyone just drops dead instantly when shot with a handgun?
A 22 is better than nothing but a larger caliber is better than a 22 IMO if you are able to use it. I have no actual experience with SD. I have manged to live
close to 87 years with no need to even point a gun at anyone. That doesn't mean I never will of course and especially in this day and age.
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halfmoonclip
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Uncertainty of ignition and feeding are the big problems with .22s. That said, revolvers are the answer.
Manufacturers have noticed the demographics of the shooting public, and more 'codger friendly' guns and calibers will become available.
Moon
Manufacturers have noticed the demographics of the shooting public, and more 'codger friendly' guns and calibers will become available.
Moon
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Jim Watson
Member
I don't have any trouble thumb cocking a double action revolver, I had rather have a K22 preferably with target hammer than a single action.
I, too, would rather have a K-22, than a Single Six or Single Ten, for defense, but, to use one of our neighbors as an example, some folks have limited ability to use index fingers, but, can still use thumbs relatively well. I regularly drive this neighbor to her bank, and to her preferred grocery and hardware stores. I see her struggle with manipulating various items.
I am not getting rid of my K-Frame .22 LR revolver, in favor of acquiring a .22 LR single-action revolver, but, do like to use single-action revolvers recreationally, and, am acquainted with the technique of “slip-shooting.” (This is not the same thing as the cinematic/theatrical technique of “fanning.”)
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