.22LR pistol: "competition" or "standard"?

[La Pistoletta]

As I detailed in my other thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=367127), I'm planning on getting into handgun shooting, hopefully a few months down the line. I am a newbie, never having shot anything but the occasional air rifle.

I'm not sure whether I'll be actively participating in competitions. It appears most shooters here (Sweden) use "competition" style pistols, such as http://arne.nohlberg.com/bilder/finkalib_benelli_mp90.jpg. In Sweden, handgun shooting seems very focused on using expensive competitions models and taking a lot of time to aim for utmost accuracy on paper targets with little regard to speed or other factors. Not really my thing.

A more regular pistol would be something like http://arne.nohlberg.com/bilder/s&w41_3.jpg or one of the Ruger models I was recommended.

Why do I want a normal gun? The answer might be unsettling, I don't know. I like the "reference" to real gun use for the purpose of self defense. I'm not a rambo or anything (in fact it's illegal to use guns for self defense here). I've read up on gun safety and plan on going into this hobby with full compliance and respect to those rules.

I just think those highly finetuned competition pistols are a bit out of touch with reality. I look at them more like "bullet throwers", sort of like those huge barrells-in-a-cinder-block people use for extreme high precision shooting, rather than actual guns.

I don't think taking 20 minutes to fire one magazine with perfect accuracy is my thing, that's just too detached from what firearms are about in the American sense. Even if I can't or will ever use one for defense as long as I live here, I'd like to practise (on the range) as if I would, not as if it's just a dart thrower with gunpowder in it.

Am I making any sense at all?

There's also the issue of pistol vs revolver. I really like the look of the S&W 617 10-round, but that'll probably have to be imported at a beefy cost.

 

[MrBorland]

For those who compete, there's nothing "out of touch with reality" about using a highly accurate target pistol. It's simply the right tool for the job.

If I understand you correctly, for now, you're simply interested in developing good handgun marksmanship without competing. If so, there's no question the S&W41 and even the Rugers would be an excellent choice. Keep in mind, though, that if something like the Benelli is more affordable or available in Sweden, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to use it for what you want. You'd be shooting it at a range, and even then, it's not like you'd be breaking a law by not "taking 20 minutes to fire one magazine with perfect accuracy". BTW, though it may not look like the Benelli target pistol, the S&W41 is a highly accurate target pistol in its own right, and used by many bullseye shooters. The main advantage of a S&W41 or Ruger over something like the Benelli to you, I think, is that the grip design makes it easier to shoot 2-handed, for more practical "real-world" type shooting, which sounds like what you're more interested in.

 

[La Pistoletta]

Thanks for your reply.

"If I understand you correctly, for now, you're simply interested in developing good handgun marksmanship without competing."

True. There's a range pretty close to where I live, and it seems members of the club who also own a handgun of their own can go there and use it whenever they want. That kind of freedom sounds ideal to me, to go there when it's not crowded. I have tinnitus too so I'd appreciate that.

How does the grip design make it easier to shoot it 2-handed? Surely the target pistols are fired exclusively with both hands? Or does it pertain more to "for more practical "real-world" type shooting".

 

[HB]

Basically...

All ISU/Olympic style shooting is done one handed. If you ever handle a pistol designed for those disciplines, it becomes pretty evident that they are made for single handed shooting (anatomical grips that fit your hand).

I would buy a ruger for your proposes, but try some Olympic style shooting. You will be either sucked in fast because of the challenge or find it very boring. I shoot air pistol, air rifle and 50ft smallbore, so I enjoy the International style games.

There are also some Olympic events in which you shoot rapidly for accuracy on turning targets.

HB

 

[La Pistoletta]

Well there you go. I never thought about that. In that case it definately seems like I'll go for a S&W41 or the 617 if I can find and afford one. I like the idea of a revolver too.

No magazines or speedloaders for a revolver, but I figure if you're gonna stand there and shoot for a while you have to reload the magazines for a pistol anyway. And with a 617 I wouldn't have to search for the empty casings. Do you think there's any difference in noise levels given the 617's longer barrel compared to most pistols?

As for pure aesthetics, I don't like the look of old style revolvers but the newer ones with full underlugs (I've picked up a bit of lingo around here) look nice. This is perhaps the most appealing design I've ever seen in a revolver http://world.guns.ru/handguns/colt_python_elite.jpg but the 617 is not far behind.

 

[MrBorland]

How does the grip design make it easier to shoot it 2-handed? Surely the target pistols are fired exclusively with both hands?

Nope. I don't pretend to be an expert on competitive target pistol shooting, but, at least in bullseye or olympic 10m shooting, believe it or not, the gun is held 1-handed, and the grips on high-end bullseye/target pistols are designed for that. Your weak hand would feel very unnatural gripping the gun, since the grip wasn't designed for that. The factory grips on the M41 and Rugers are more symmetrical for 2-handed shooting, though dedicated target grips are available for them, so you get the best of both worlds.

 

[MrBorland]

I see HB beat me to the punchline.

I actually prefer revolvers myself (I have a 4" 10-shot 617 and a vintage 6" K-22 Masterpiece). For developing marksmanship skills, a 6" M617 would also be a good choice (don't know about the relative sound levels). Though these typically have great single action triggers right from the factory, a M617 would also let you work on developing your marksmanship skill while shooting double action. Shooting DA accurately is challenging, but very rewarding. Not many can do it!

If I were going to compete, or saw myself competing in the future, though, I'd choose a semi-auto. Not for reasons of inherent accuracy, but more for practical considerations: you'd shoot the revolver in single action, but in doing so, you'd have to adjust your grip to cock the hammer. And you'd have to do this during timed fire. All in all, it seems easier to use a semi-auto.

 

[La Pistoletta]

Hmm yes, the heavier DA trigger pull on the revolver. I guess that's a bit of a discipline on its own, might be fun to try to get proficient with that. I like that SA is always available for single, more accurate shots.

What about grip styles for .22? Left hand under mag or Weaver, or something else? And for revolvers? I am a bit over-familiar with firearm concepts given my limited experience, true armchair style. But that's the way it is here, where you can't just get a .22 and start practising.

Oh, I'll ask here too: are there any speedloaders or moonclips available for .22 revolvers? If no, why?

 

[cavman]

La Pistoletta,

I compete with the M41, and have a couple. I have tried the Euro styled pistols. The way the hand fits and is held is quite different.

Make a fist. (You will probably find the straight edge is your pinky side of your hand with your wrist, with your thumb facing upwards.) That is more common with American holding.

If you bend your thumb downward/forward, so it is now straight (ish) with the wrist, this is generally how the Euro style is.

Also, if you notice on the model that you show, it has a platform that will keep your hand tighter with the gun. The intention here is to minimize hand movement.

On the line I shoot on, about half Master class and above, and half Expert and below, the two grips styles are about 50/50. (with about 60/40 Euro/American with the Masters+)


With that lower platform on the Benelli, you won't be shooting 2-handed. With the M41, you may if you choose.

As you have not decided on discipline, perhaps the M41 may be more suited for this reason: It will allow you to compete in precision shooting, as well as still having the option of learning the 2-handed combat stances now being taught; where as the Benelli is a little more specialized.

cavman

 

[MrBorland]

What about grip styles for .22? Left hand under mag or Weaver, or something else? And for revolvers?

Here are a few very general videos on pistol shooting and grip. They'll at least get you started.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQgLmQl1zDw&feature=related

And a link to some info on revolver shooting by The Man himself:
http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/JERRY_MICULEK/jerry_miculek.html

And, BTW, speaking of The Man, check out what's possible with a revolver:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giSaNiQ-Wb4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uisHfKj2JiI

Oh, I'll ask here too: are there any speedloaders or moonclips available for .22 revolvers? If no, why?

I recall seeing a speedloader for a 10-shot 617. You can probably find it by Googling. Personally, I wouldn't have much use for it for a number of reasons: 1) I don't need to reload my .22 revolver rapidly, 2) I don't see that lining up 10 rounds would be very "speedy" and 3) the chambers in a 617/K-22 are pretty tight, so unless the chambers were kept scrupulously clean, the rounds likely won't just drop in.

 

[La Pistoletta]

Those are some helpful links, thanks. I think my hands are a bit smaller than average, or at least the fingers are a bit shorter, for someone who is 6 foot 1. I don't know how that affects my choice of gun or grip but we'll see. Maybe I should scan some pics and put an American quarter next to 'em for comparison.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Asking "what kind of a gun should I buy?" is like asking "what kind of motor vehicle should I buy?"

If you want real economy, buy a motorcycles. If you want to haul hay, buy a ton and a half truck. The kind of motor vehicle you should buy is determined by how you intend to use it.

For handguns, there are several categories of use:

1. Recreational -- plinking, carry in the woods and so on.
2. Small game hunting
3. Competition.
4. Self-defense.

Since you're precluded from self-defense, and don't look toward high-lovel competion, I would recommend a gun with target sights, but not a radical design. That would handle the first two categories, and be suitable for certain kinds of competition.

 

[La Pistoletta]

Yep. A new S&W 617 is expensive but the thing is, being a Swede I'm not gonna be able to get a large collection of guns, so I figure I might as well get one or two very fine ones that I really like. I still have to afford it, of course, but if I can, that reasoning makes sense doesn't it?

So paying $1000-1200 or whatever for a new 617 plus shipping and tax could be worth it if I'm gonna be limited to say, 2 guns in total. The USD is pretty low as well and that doesn't hurt if I choose to import.

Of course, it's all still quite some time down the road since I probably won't get a membership for a number of months still, and after that it'll take a minimum of 6 months to get a license. But no harm in planning ahead.

 

[Confederate]

Shooting one-handed at paper targets appeals to some people, but not me. I don't know what the gun laws are in Sweden, and whether you have to keep it at a range or can take it home with you, but obviously, what you use it for determines what you get. I can say for my purposes, the Ruger pistols are hard to beat, but then, I like plinking and the ability to use for self defense—and there are lots of target pistols that punch paper just fine, but in other applications they're more delicate and tend not to hold up as well.

The Smith 41 certainly does very well as a target pistol, but I've never considered it much of a "fun" gun at all. If you enjoy standing down range and pointing a pistol at a paper target with one hand and staring at that target until small beads of blood begin appearing on your forehead, the 41 might be for you. If you like shooting outdoors with a two-hand hold and like shooting empty cans, the Ruger, any Ruger, is a far better way to go.



Some folks like to shoot revolvers and some like to shoot autos. Some like
rapid fire and others like to take their time. And still others buy certain guns
because they like the way the guns look and feel.

 

[belus]

Two things which may make your decision harder

10rd Speedloader - http://www.msnusers.com/speedloader
Herrett target grips - http://www.herrett-stocks.com/tgtrevlr.htm
( also fit S&W 41 and Rugers http://www.herrett-stocks.com/tgtauto.htm )

 

[La Pistoletta]

That's interesting. Do you think those speedloaders have any problems like MrBorland described?

Confederate: handguns can be owned and stored at home with a proper license and gunsafe.

Another thing: is dryfiring harmful to either .22 pistols or revolvers?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Yep. A new S&W 617 is expensive but the thing is, being a Swede I'm not gonna be able to get a large collection of guns, so I figure I might as well get one or two very fine ones that I really like. I still have to afford it, of course, but if I can, that reasoning makes sense doesn't it?

That makes perfect sense. Get what you want -- when you add in taxes and shipping, a cheap, unsatisfactory revolover will cost almost as much as the best you can buy.

Another thing: is dryfiring harmful to either .22 pistols or revolvers?

It can be. Read the owner's manual for your gun, and it will tell you.

I have a 1938 Colt Woodsman, with a tiny nick in the chamber edge from dryfiring. It doesn't hurt anything, but I always close the chamber on a fired case, and let the rim of that case cushion the firing pin when I drop the hammer and store the gun away.

 

[bannockburn]

La Pistoletta

It's generally accepted that dry firing is not a good idea with a rimfire pistol or revolver because the firing pin stikes very close to where the rim of the cartridge would be in the chamber. This can cause damage to the area around the chamber mouth, and can lead to firing pin breakage as well. Best to get a snap cap to take the force of the firing pin striking there.
As to your choices, I would opt for one of the Ruger MK. III target models. It gives you the best of both worlds in that they are for the most part, inherently accurate, but still fun to shoot if your also interested in just casual plinking. Plus there are a lot of different ways you can customize it with grips, optics, trigger kits, etc. that can personalize the gun to your own shooting style.

 

[cavman]

In addition to that, Ruger .22s (Mark II and Mark III) do allow dry firing.

There may be others, but Ruger is one of the few who allow it in their design.

 

[Mark K. C.]

First of all, welcome to the wonderful world of pistol shooting. You will never regret this choice. Second of all, why don't you go to the closest shooting range and just talk to a few of the folks there. A dime-agin-a-dollar says someone will let you shoot their pistols and you can gain first hand knowledge of what suits you best. You might even wind up with a pretty cool shooting partner.

 

[absolute0]

A model 41 is no good for plinking?

The Hell You Say!~

 

[La Pistoletta]

I'll see if I can try out a couple of different guns. If I'm lucky, maybe someone has a DA revolver too.

Are wadcutters available for .22? If yes, only used in revolvers I guess? Are they popular?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

So far as I know, there are no wadcutters for .22s. There are some companies (the Hanned Line comes to mind) that offer a hardened die that can be used with a file to cut off the nose of the bullet, to produce something like a wadcutter. The intended use is small game hunting.

 

[MrBorland]

If you're interested in wadcutters for accuracy reasons, be aware that each .22 has a preferred ammo, so the trick is to find a bunch of different ammo and systematically trying them all. With its preferred ammo, a 617, Ruger, or M41 will be plenty accurate (so long as you the shooter are).

You don't have to limit yourself to match-grade ammo, either. You'll probably be able to find some standard ammo that shoot really well in your particular gun. For example, my 617 really likes Federal 714. Not too expensive, and I can buy plenty of it locally. Yes, it'll shoot match-grade Fiocchi and Eley tiny bit better, but it's twice the price (+shipping), and since I don't compete, that small preference isn't that important to me given the cost difference.

 

[La Pistoletta]

I'll get the cheaper kind, since not only do I think it'll take quite some time before I can extract any usefulness out of the match grade stuff, it also allows me to practise more which should equal more skill and more fun.