230 gr. Bullet Better For Home Defense than 185 gr. ?

[*Kemosabe*]

I prefer a 185 gr. 45 caliber bullet traveling at 1100 fps as my SD round. That velocity, depending on temperature, puts the bullet in the supersonic realm with the attendant sonic boom. The maximum velocity loading for the 230 gr. bullet is approximately 980 fps and will not go supersonic in almost all realistic conditions.

That sonic boom will have a greater felt effect in the confines of a small area like most of the rooms of the usual homes than outdoors.

I’m sure that the house burglar/robber would be more intimidated with a sonic boom than not, but is it worth it for what it can do to you i.e., temporary hearing impairment, etc.

Would you change your HS load to the 230 gr bullet or ???

 

[moxie]

No. The 230 is likely even better.

A bad guy won't notice the difference between a subsonic very loud noise and a supersonic very loud noise. Neither will you. Absolutely doesn't matter.

For .45acp most guys will recommend you get the 230 gr. Gold Dot, HST, Golden Saber, etc.

 

[GBExpat]

That sonic boom will have a greater felt effect in the confines of a small area like most of the rooms of the usual homes than outdoors.

I’m sure that the house burglar/robber would be more intimidated with a sonic boom than not

So... a key part of your home defense plan is to intimidate the burglar/robber with the amount of noise your handgun produces? Really?

 

[Barry the Bear]

IMO If you want a round that uses a 180-185 gr bullet at fast speeds, than trade in the .45 auto and get yourself a .40 smith or a 10mm.


The .45 auto was designed in the 230 gr pill heading at about 850-900 fps, Let the round do what it was designed to do and that is to put a heavy slug into the assailant

As far as the shock and awe factor , Ive shot .44 magnums indoors with no hearing protection in self defense, trust me the noise level and muzzle flash made just about the whole room seem to shake.

 

[rcmodel]

That sonic boom will have a greater felt effect in the confines of a small area

Ever heard the sonic boom of a bullet passing close by you??

It isn't a boom at all.
Even from rifle bullets going 3 times faster.

More like someone snapping their fingers.

Bullets just aren't big enough to make a Boom like a jet fighter breaking the sound barrier or something.

Anyway, any noise the bullet makes will be completely overwhelmed by the muzzle blast inside a room.

Fuggedaboutit!

rc

 

[Cee Zee]

I’m sure that the house burglar/robber would be more intimidated with a sonic boom than not, but is it worth it for what it can do to you i.e., temporary hearing impairment, etc.

You might also lose your hearing either temporarily or permanently by firing any .45 inside a house. We're talking LOUD. Most people figure if you have to fire your weapon your hearing is just going to have to suffer the consequences if there are any. I wouldn't fire my gun inside unless it was life or death.

BTW I have kept almost exclusively 230 gr. bullets for my .45's for HD and SD. I guess my thinking goes back to the whole idea of hydrostatic shock where the conventional wisdom I heard was that bigger, heavier rounds were more conducive to creating hydrostatic shock damage to other areas of the body besides the wound channel. As long as the penetration and expansion was sufficient many have thought that it was best to use a bullet that would not go through a target but would impart all energy to that target instead. The knock on 9mm rounds (this is an old theory that no longer applies IMO) was that the extra speed and smaller size of the round made them go through a target like it was swiss cheese. I guess the comparison is the difference between sticking your fingers down into water tips first and slapping your hand against the water laid flat out. Your finger tips easily go into the water just like a really good dive. But like those belly busters we all feared as kids hitting flat was hard on you. The CW was that a bigger round was like smacking the water with an open hand. It imparted shock to areas away from the impact site.

There are some studies that seem to back up the whole idea of hydrostatic shock. Whether there is a difference between different bullets is a matter for speculation AFAIK since I haven't seen any studies on the issue. There are probably are some. I guess I should look for them. But I don't carry a .45 any more so it isn't real important to me. I carry a .40 which supposedly can achieve the best of both worlds. You get great penetration and hydrostatic shock. That's the theory anyway. Again I shouldn't just take someone's speculation as fact but that isn't why I carry the .40 anyway. I like the capacity and the bigger thump than the 9mm puts out.

But again almost all of the .45 SD ammo I have is 230 gr.. And I keep my hearing protection handy too. I have muffs that amplify everything except cartridge blasts. I get better hearing (a lot better in fact) and protection against really loud booms.

 

[mavracer]

185gr 45 caliber bullets have a terrible sectional density, which leads to poor penetration, I'd rather rely on penetration than intimidation.
My 45s are loaded with 230s

 

[*Kemosabe*]

@ moxie - I have a huge amount of experience with the 185 gr. and 200 gr. bullets. The last time I shot 230 gr. bullets (ball) was in Laos in 1971 and I’ve forgotten what it was like to shoot them.

I guess I’ll have to scrounge up some 230 grainers to refresh my memory and skill level with them.

GBExpat - “So... a key part of your home defense plan is to intimidate the burglar/robber with the amount of noise your handgun produces? Really? “

Where do you get that from??? I NEVER said that the sonic boom was part of my “key plan”. I stated what I know as fact that a sonic boom in a small confined area is intimidating and I might add it is also disconcerting having shot people clearing a a hooch with NVA regulars in it. And your experience is? Really?

@ Barry the Bear - Agree, but I have some limited experience with the 185 grainers moving fast into human tissue and I was impressed.

@ mavracer - I appreciate your input and perspective… some more for me to think about.

 

[Barry the Bear]

@ moxie - I have a huge amount of experience with the 185 gr. and 200 gr. bullets. The last time I shot 230 gr. bullets (ball) was in Laos in 1971 and I’ve forgotten what it was like to shoot them.

I guess I’ll have to scrounge up some 230 grainers to refresh my memory and skill level with them.



Where do you get that from??? I NEVER said that the sonic boom was part of my “key plan”. I stated what I know as fact that a sonic boom in a small confined area is intimidating and I might add it is also disconcerting having shot people clearing a a hooch with NVA regulars in it. And your experience is? Really?

@ Barry the Bear - Agree, but I have some limited experience with the 185 grainers moving fast into human tissue and I was impressed.

Im not saying dont use it , its still a freaking bullet coming at you !!!!

But i myself use and carry big bore revolvers, to me using light for caliber rounds isnt worthwile when we know from history that the large rounds worked best with bullet weights that are compatible with their respective calibers.

 

[Barry the Bear]

Another observation is , I do not know to which the extent youve seen the 185 gr ammo but remember, we have had freak accidents before...


After all we know the .38 long colt may have killed a few Moro warriors , but their was a reason the US Army went back to the .45 colt for the time bieng, knowing it would dispatch enemies with certainty.

 

[*Kemosabe*]

Cee Zee -@ I appreciate the time you took to give your thoughts to this. NOW DON”T SHOOT THE MESSENGER, but the only clinical experience I had with hydrostatic shock on humans was observing an autopsy of a perp that was shot with a 30-06 ball ammo at close range when I was a homicide investigator.

The medical examiner showed me the remnants of the perp’s liver that was small amounts of parenchyma (the functional tissue) hanging off the stroma (the tendonous-like strands that the parenchyma was attached to). He said it was the hydrostatic shock that decimated the liver AND to get that effect the bullet would have to be traveling over 2200 fps. I can’t attest to that statement, but with his experience in his jurisdiction of close to 3 million people I assumed he knew what he was talking about. He might have been wrong, so if someone here can chime in with their expertise maybe we can all learn something.

 

[nathan]

.230 gr JHP is well proven .

 

[*Kemosabe*]

@ Barry the Bear - As I already said, I had only limited experience with the 185 gr. bullet on human tissue and as such I am fully aware that my experience is anecdotal.

I get it that any bullet can kill. Considering the number of deaths caused by the .25 acp that I and my comrades handled, it is a no brainer that any bullet “freaking coming at you” can kill.

 

[nathan]

From many they said the .230 gr shoot s tighter groups most of the time. Test the 185 gr vs the 230 gr and see which one groups best.

 

[Barry the Bear]

Kemosabe, Im assuming ( correct me if Im wrong), that your experience has been with either badly injured people or with corpses.

All of those are after the fact shootings , I would much rather see live footage of an attack with the rounds being used to stop the assailant, however that seems very unlikely as not everyone seems to get shot around cameras


Maybe I just simply dont trust the light caliber bullets.

 

[*Kemosabe*]

@ rcmodel - Yes, I’ve had bullets passing from the front, back and sides of me simultaneously and if a C-5A galaxy could break the sound barrier that’s what I thought it would sound like. I’m sure that the heightened emotional awareness in deadly confrontations might have a lot to do with it.

I agree that the muzzle blast can be fierce in many circumstances. In the situation where I shot a commie from inside the hooch, one of his cohorts was outside and moving past a small window. I didn’t have time to get the muzzle out the window and the muzzle blast was so awesome that it startled me badly. It is firmly implanted in my memory and I’ll think twice before doing that again in less than a life threatening situation.

@ Nathan - No argument there and the 185 gr, JHP has a very effective history as well. You pays yer money an’ you takes yer cherce. (I remember a Damon Runyon character saying that!)

Good idea about comparing the two for group tightness… this would help remove personal preference from the equation.

@ Barry the Bear - Yes, all my experiences were with badly injured people or corpses.. in my line of work it was just about the only kind that were involved.

The efficacy of either round was not in question in my inquiry. As far as your personal prejudices against lighter bullets goes, all I can say is, to each his own.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Noise, muzzle blast....

I own a Glock 21 .45acp gen 04 & used MagSafe SWAT .45acp for home defense. I recently shot it up & purchased a new box of USM4 Liberty Ultra Defense 78gr .45acp ammunition.
The MagSafe SWAT loads had no real recoil but it was loud.
Id think even if I missed, a felon or crook would flee when they heard that SWAT round.
As for the 230gr +P, I like it more than the lighter 185gr. I never heard of any noise levels being a reason to buy a .45acp round. My normal carry round is a Winchester Ranger T/T Series 230 gr JHP +P. It's potent and in use by several US law enforcement agencies. I'm unaware of any PDs that use 185gr +P JHPs.
I think the sheriff's office near me still issues the Gold Dot 230gr +P JHP for their Glock 21/30 gen 04 duty pistols.

 

[PowerG]

230 grain, all other factors being equal, will likely give better penetration. Hydrostatic shock in handgun calibers is mostly a myth IMO, there have been any number of documented cases of bad guys soaking up multiple rounds of large caliber handgun rounds and continuing the fight...penetration+good shot placement is your best chance to put a stop to a home invasion type event. Depending on loud noises and big flashes to have deterrent effect on a serious attacker would not seem to be a good plan.

 

[wtr100]

both meet my #1 criteria - have a gun , both would hurt like a SOB to get hit with and will cause significant leakage

Some big time instructor once said, 'Nobody likes to leak.'

 

[HankB]

While I'm skeptical about some of the "trick" bullet loads out there, I think any modern, premium .45 ACP JHP load from a major manufacturer that functions 100% in a particular gun will do very well for self defense. I prefer a 230 +P JHP - if it expands as premium modern designs ought to, well and good; if for some reason it DOESN'T expand, it won't do any worse than standard hardball . . . and that's not bad.

I don't believe that the sonic boom of a lighter .45 bullet traveling - at best - barely over the speed of sound will be nearly as loud as the muzzle blast itself.

 

[sauer1911]

umm, my ears are gonna be in that room when the weapon goes off.

I think I choose the sub sonic 230gr round over the 185gr supersonic.

Hopefully I will never have to, but just in case I have to do it twice, I want to keep as much of my hearing as possible.

No one likes to leak, I like that.

be safe.

 

[Panzerschwein]

I sort of agree with the OP.

I use a .357 magnum that fires a 158 grain SJHP bullet at 1475 FPS for a little over 800 ft lbs muzzle energy. I'd imagine that load would have plenty of shock and awe.

 

[Steve C]

It doesn't matter what bullet weight you use as long as it feeds and fires reliably in your handgun. Best to use a good tested HP with proven street performance but any factory equivalent load can work.

Any non suppressed firearm you shoot without hearing protection will cause your ears to ring and temporary (hours to days) of hearing interference but that will go away.

Selection of defense firearm, ammo, caliber is in a large part based on individual imagination and paradigm as most will never be faced with having to defend ourselves from intruders. Those who have "seen the elephant" where usually in the military or law enforcement and their firearm and ammo choice was made for them. I have friends and associates who survived harrowing life and death situations in war and law enforcement and can't think of one who obsesses over the ammo they carry in their personal weapons. The former LEO's usually carry what they did on duty.

 

[notaglockfanboy]

So I am gathering you want to intimidate the intruder with a loud noise?? Not a very good self defense plan IMO, but to each their own. As far as the 185g vs 230g, either will kill the intruder just as dead, if he don't run from the warning shots fired to scare him.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I keep waiting for something having to do with strategy, tactics or training to emerge on this thread, but I keep seeing discussion about bullets and muzzle blast and sonic booms.

Moved to Handguns...