230 gr. Bullet Better For Home Defense than 185 gr. ?

[bannockburn]

*Kemosabe*

I use to run 185 gr. Match ammo through my Gold Cup as that load gave me the best accuracy with that particular gun. Likewise I have also had very good results with 185 gr. and 200 gr. ammo in my Commander and Officers Model guns. For my full size 1911s I typically shoot 230 gr. FMJ.

 

[*Kemosabe*]

@ bannockburn - Thanks for reminding me: Over 30 years ago a friend was evaluating Federal’s 185 gr., FMJ, .45acp match ammo to use in training for his DEA unit. He decided against it and gave me the remaining 2 boxes. I went to my ammo stash and found I had 1 full box left.

I think the stuff is mid range velocity ammo and for the kind of shooting I do, I don’t have a use for it. I’m going to dust it off and try to trade it for something that would be more useful to me.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

185 gr 45 cal slug will do the job just fine, but noise level as perceived by your attacker is irrelevant. If you have other people in your home and want to limit penetration, light and fast may help a bit but not much.

Personally I choose 230 gr +p Hornady ammo in an HK45 for HD. I want penetration. The bigger reason I choose 230 grain ammo is that all my 45's shoot that weight bullet to point of aim better than lighter bullets. I own 3 guns chambered in 45 and have shot 185 and 200 grain ammo out of all of them. Light for caliber bullets consistently hit a bit low out of all three of my guns as expected. Your 45 may be different, but for me penetration and hitting point of aim are really important for SD and HD.

Good luck. My advice is try some different weight bullets, and pick the one that hits where you like.

 

[Charley C]

There's only one thing missing from this conversation; I'm assuming that the OP and probably everyone responding to this thread has MUCH "younger" ears than I do, and almost certainly much better hearing; I'm a text book case of what happens to ones hearing over a life time, when you take a lacksadasical approach to protecting your hearing; trust me.....after it's gone, it's gone for good! Regardless of you age now, firing ANY large caliber handgun in a confined space, (such as inside of the average home ) without serious hearing protection is a sure-fire recipe for ruining your hearing and needing hearing aides much sooner than you probably would otherwise.

Obviously, if you thought there was much chance of a burglar or "home invader" breaking into your home wearing body armor, then I'd say probably have a S&W .500 magnum with 10 inch barrel handy; but being realistic, I'm guessing that the chances of that happening are very slight.

As far as the 9 mm round being a "small, light round".......yeah, compared to the many much bigger thing out there, I suppose it is; personally, I'm of the opinion that if you can't stop a home invader with a 17 round mag full off 9mm, you probably better forget pistols altogether and have a good 12 gauge shot gun handy.

Another thing to consider......where is YOUR house located, relative to other houses and people? There's a LOT of energy behind ANY 45 caliber round; (have you heard the horror stories about people shooting a burglar in their house and "taking out" the guy next door in his kitchen? ) Going to the other extreme........and please don't ask me how I know this, but I do; for many years, (and I'm guessing still today ), the Israeli Mossad had / have teams of people whose sole job was / is to "eliminate" certain individuals; and the standard weapon used was ALWAYS the same; MANY enemies of Israel have been found deceased in doorways with seven .22lr rounds in their brain and chest. (almost always fired from less than three feet away. ) I can tell you that all of these people are highly trained and VERY accurate as to "shot placement".

I'm also hearing lately that quite a few PD's are trading in their G 22's and 23's and going back to the G 17's and 19's using the 9mm round. (Lotta reasons behind this )

Finally.....if you think having to "shell out" 2k for a great custom 1911 is "painful"........wait til you're obliged to come up with 4k to have a tiny little digital, electronic "gadget" sitting on each of your ears so you can hear when your wife is yelling at you! (You'll become much more mindful of protecting yourself from loud noises. )

 

[481]

I prefer a 185 gr. 45 caliber bullet traveling at 1100 fps as my SD round. That velocity, depending on temperature, puts the bullet in the supersonic realm with the attendant sonic boom. The maximum velocity loading for the 230 gr. bullet is approximately 980 fps and will not go supersonic in almost all realistic conditions.

That sonic boom will have a greater felt effect in the confines of a small area like most of the rooms of the usual homes than outdoors.

I’m sure that the house burglar/robber would be more intimidated with a sonic boom than not, but is it worth it for what it can do to you i.e., temporary hearing impairment, etc.

Would you change your HS load to the 230 gr bullet or ???

I am not sure that the noise from a bullet's sonic boom can be counted on to have any discernable deterrent effect upon an intruder, especially in the way of "intimidation".

If the noises heard by a burglar/assailant/robber as he/she is being shot at were a significant factor in intimidating a violent offender, then we'd all just carry blanks.

 

[Water-Man]

The only 185gr. .45 acp ammo that I find worth considering is the type using an all-copper bullet.

 

[mavracer]

the mere fact that the 185 gr jhp's exist is proof that the 230 gr jhp's dont expand reliably and adequately.

That may have been true 45 years ago when the 185gr JHPs first came about but it's not true today. Even out of short barrels the 230 gold dots, ranger and HST bullets will expand quite reliably.

 

[jmr40]

After all we know the .38 long colt may have killed a few Moro warriors , but their was a reason the US Army went back to the .45 colt for the time bieng, knowing it would dispatch enemies with certainty.

This story gets repeated a lot. No one ever tells the end of the story. The Army requested 45's in the hopes they would perform better. After they got there it made no difference. In fact the Moro warriors shot with rifles didn't seem very impressed. Being high on drugs has that effect on humans.

All of the test data I've seen indicates that a 185 +p is slightly better at stopping threats than the 230 gr bullet. A 230 will penetrate more, but the 185 goes far enough. The difference is small and each individual has to decide if the advantage is worth the added recoil and blast. I carry 185+p's in my 45's when using them, but prefer 9mm or 40 S&W to either 45 load.

 

[Barry the Bear]

This story gets repeated a lot. No one ever tells the end of the story. The Army requested 45's in the hopes they would perform better. After they got there it made no difference. In fact the Moro warriors shot with rifles didn't seem very impressed. Being high on drugs has that effect on humans.

All of the test data I've seen indicates that a 185 +p is slightly better at stopping threats than the 230 gr bullet. A 230 will penetrate more, but the 185 goes far enough. The difference is small and each individual has to decide if the advantage is worth the added recoil and blast. I carry 185+p's in my 45's when using them, but prefer 9mm or 40 S&W to either 45 load.

Its repeated because it is historically accurate that the .45 colt had a much higher succ ess rate than the anemic .38 colt. Also people keep qouting ballistics but it remains the truth that its all paper studies, when people reference the marshal and sanow files they think your lying to them . The fact is we (as humans) know what will kill us, but they keep referencing ballistic gels as if theyre the end all be all conclusion.

 

[kBob]

Shoot whatever your .45 ACP functions every time and don't worry a lot about anything else.

I am guilty. In my youth I used lighter bullets. rc and other old pharts like us likely remember Remington's 185 grain HP. Not sure one ever actually expanded in flesh.....but against steel drums (so much for the A-Team TV show) and car doors (Pre crash bar) they were hot stuff. I found they went bang everytime and had no issues getting into the chamber to do so, so I carried them. They actually penetrated steel drums better than my bud's then recommended 140 SJHP in a six inch .357 at all ranges from 3 meters to 100.

Then the Speer 200 grain "Flying Ash Tray" bug bit me. The horrors! They were not reliable in my unaltered .45s (well, except the Black Hawk) under the care and guidence of an actual gunsmith ( not a parts changer) friend I did some polishing here and there and paid more attention to my magazines and they became reliable and so carried. My Star PD never liked them, but I carried one up the spout to have one for a first shot anyway. Once shot a deer at close range ( standing over it, yes the car damage was significant) and recovered the bullet from the grass below the deer. Hit a rib going in and out. One arterial spurt and lights out. I kept the slug for years as it was an oval .75x.55 inches in size. Shoot I carried them when I went back to Europe as an Officer in my "Privately Owned Weapon", with the Colonel's approval..... since I gave him, the CSM and their drivers a few rounds so they could each have "one up." No General Dozier experiences for us!

But in more modern times I have gone back to 230 because there are a lot of good bullets out there. When I was using the lighter bullets about all that was out there in 230s other than hard cast lead and FMJ was the expensive Norma 230 HP which I never got to expand even in water and got occasional failures to feed with. Then came the Black Talons......and no turning back for carry ammo for me. I still stuff cases with lead 200 SWC for steel plates and score paper, but for HD/SD give me a 230 grain.

-kBob

 

[earplug]

Recoil

FRONT SIGHT the magazine for USPSA members had a article on bullet weight and recoil.
Heavier bullets had less recoil then lighter bullets when both are loaded to the same power factor.
They took into account the powder charge and I think they were able to measure the muzzle blast effect with there test rig.
This was using unported barrels.

 

[*Kemosabe*]

@ SteveC - You’re right about police depts. requiring authorized ammo. When we were carrying W-W .38 Spl 158gr RN Lubaloy bullets, a perp was hit 32 times and he was still shooting back. The rank and file voiced their displeasure and PD replaced it with W-W SuperX 158gr. LHP bullets that were supposed to be our salvation.

In short order there were reports of the bullets bouncing off windshields and such. That included my returning fire at a perp with the bullet striking the supraorbital ridge of his eye then deflecting behind the zygomatic arch, out of his cheek entering the top of the shoulder into the apex of his lung… and the bastard was still resisting arrest! I won’t be carrying that ammo in my S&W revolvers. This was a large department with over 3000 sworn personnel and after spending some time in firearms training it became very apparent that choices of firearms, ammo and training was mostly budget dependent.

@ Fred Fuller - Mia culpa, my bad, my error. I meant to put this thread in General Discussion at the beginning and didn’t notice that until you pointed it out. My thread was NEVER meant to be about strategy or tactics. Just a simple question I had about the difference in the disconcerting effect of one bullet over another. It’s interesting how folks read or misread into it and I don’t mind because it makes for a more lively discussion and brings other things into play that could be beneficial to all. I picked up on a couple of things myself. I just don't want to be held accountable for something I didn’t say.

@ notaglockfanboy & 481 - Since you either misread, misunderstood or didn’t take the time to read the posts that already answered your redundant remarks, let me reiterate the following:

Post #8 - I NEVER said that the sonic boom was part of my “key plan”. I stated what I know as fact that a sonic boom in a small confined area is intimidating and I might add it is also disconcerting having shot people clearing a a hooch with NVA regulars in it.”

Post #16 - “…the muzzle blast can be fierce in many circumstances. In the situation where I shot a commie from inside the hooch, one of his cohorts was outside and moving past a small window. I didn’t have time to get the muzzle out the window and the muzzle blast was so awesome that it startled me badly. It is firmly implanted in my memory and I’ll think twice before doing that again in less than a life threatening situation.”

Your remarks tell me, from my experience and the experiences of several posters in this thread, that you don’t have the similar experience to make any comment about it if you don’t think the sound of a high powered handgun in the confines of a small area can rattle you.

I might add that some of the posters disagreed with me stating their opinions in a constructive fashion. That is EXACTLY the discourse that I was looking for. You might want to review those remarks rather than take such a denigrating posture.

 

[Dr.Rob]

I tried a lot of bullet weights when I first started loading 45ACP.

I never found a 185 gr load I liked, because I couldn't find an equivalent 185gr FMJ for practice.

I did work up a hot 200gr FPJ, but I couldn't find a 200gr hollow point I liked.

I stick with 230's and practice with ball ammo.

 

[481]

@ notaglockfanboy & 481 - Since you either misread, misunderstood or didn’t take the time to read the posts that already answered your redundant remarks, let me reiterate the following:

Post #8 - I NEVER said that the sonic boom was part of my “key plan”. I stated what I know as fact that a sonic boom in a small confined area is intimidating and I might add it is also disconcerting having shot people clearing a a hooch with NVA regulars in it.”

Post #16 - “…the muzzle blast can be fierce in many circumstances. In the situation where I shot a commie from inside the hooch, one of his cohorts was outside and moving past a small window. I didn’t have time to get the muzzle out the window and the muzzle blast was so awesome that it startled me badly. It is firmly implanted in my memory and I’ll think twice before doing that again in less than a life threatening situation.”

Your remarks tell me, from my experience and the experiences of several posters in this thread, that you don’t have the similar experience to make any comment about it if you don’t think the sound of a high powered handgun in the confines of a small area can rattle you.

I might add that some of the posters disagreed with me stating their opinions in a constructive fashion. That is EXACTLY the discourse that I was looking for. You might want to review those remarks rather than take such a denigrating posture.

K,

I've denigrated no one. I simply commented after reading your assertion here-

I’m sure that the house burglar/robber would be more intimidated with a sonic boom than not, but is it worth it for what it can do to you i.e., temporary hearing impairment, etc.

I most certainly never said that sonic boom was part of your "key plan". Another member said that. I didn't say that and don't appreciate being accused of saying that. I never intended offense and after reviewing the content of my post can see nowhere that I did.

An opinion that runs contrary to yours is not denigrating, but rather open discourse and nothing more. Your baseless accusation -that my remarks were intended to be denigrating to you- is insulting and quite uncalled for.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

there's no reason to settle for the 230 gr jhp's, giving up the advantage of an expanding bullet, by having too little velocity

Modern technology and bullet design have largely eliminated a lack of expansion from .45 ammo.

Speer and a number of reputable ammo manufacturers have designed 45 acp ammo that will expand reliable, even with shorter barrels. There is always the option of carrying 230 gr +p ammo as well. That's what I do 230 gr moving a little over 1000 ft/sec should expand just fine.

That being said, if you like the 185 gr loads, have at it. And also, a concern about a lack of expansion is the reason I carry a 45 to begin with, and not a 9mm.

 

[grter]

While studies may or may not yeild loads of information my common sense tells me it is well known what that round typically does or does not do when it hits.

This round is not the latest greatest newly produced subject of the most recent advertising campain. It's been around quite a while and has been used way more than enough for the average person with common sense to get a good idea about what it does provided he/she knows how to read.

The same can be said about civil war muzzle loaders.

Without question to me they are all quite lethal even without a sonic boom.

Unless of course you like shooting paper with big guns that make loud noises

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm a fan of using the bullet most closely associated with a cartridge. There is usually a very good reason why that bullet weight is commonly used or was the bullet used to develop the cartridge.

I like a 158gr bullet in the .38 Special, a 124gr bullet in the 9mm, a 250gr bullet in the 45 Colt and a 230gr bullet in the 45 ACP. There is something to be said about a big hunk of lead hitting the bad guy, it usually keeps going and does a lot of damage.

IMO if you're going to use a 185gr bullet in the 45 ACP you might as well shoot a 40 S&W.

 

[mnhntr]

IMHO the noise from your gun is not even a fraction of what will intimidate a perp. Ever heard of auditory exclusion? It happens under stress and can actually mitigate what your talking about. I think you are way over thinking this thing. The only factor that should be thought of when it comes to bullet selection is which one stops a perp better.

 

[481]

IMHO the noise from your gun is not even a fraction of what will intimidate a perp. Ever heard of auditory exclusion? It happens under stress and can actually mitigate what your talking about. I think you are way over thinking this thing. The only factor that should be thought of when it comes to bullet selection is which one stops a perp better.

Auditory exclusion is a well-documented phenomena in OISs and one that could remove the factor from consideration in a gunfight or shooting. Hadn't even thought of that in relation to this topic. Good point.

 

[*Kemosabe*]

@ 481 - I stand by what I said. You apparently don’t have any experience with extremely loud noises and muzzle blasts in the confines of a small room and you don’t know what you are talking about. If the “auditory exclusion” effect were universal we wouldn’t have used flash-bang devices and we DID use flash-bang.

Several posters have disagreed with my premise and they were adult and constructive about it, so it’s not that you disagree with me, it’s the trite manner in which you do so, i.e., "If the noises heard by a burglar/assailant/robber as he/she is being shot at were a significant factor in intimidating a violent offender, then we'd all just carry blanks.” Not what I would call polite, but rather condescending instead.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Thick skin is helpful on THR. This thread looks all used up.

Bummer

 

[mnhntr]

Big difference between flash bangs and gunshots

 

[481]

@ 481 - I stand by what I said. You apparently don’t have any experience with extremely loud noises and muzzle blasts in the confines of a small room and you don’t know what you are talking about. If the “auditory exclusion” effect were universal we wouldn’t have used flash-bang devices and we DID use flash-bang.

Several posters have disagreed with my premise and they were adult and constructive about it, so it’s not that you disagree with me, it’s the trite manner in which you do so, i.e., "If the noises heard by a burglar/assailant/robber as he/she is being shot at were a significant factor in intimidating a violent offender, then we'd all just carry blanks.” Not what I would call polite, but rather condescending instead.

Auditory exclusion is a proven neuro-physiological effect. If you don't want to accept a proven neuro-physiological effect as fact, then that is fine with me. I really don't care.

If you think that my initial response was trite or condescending, then you are in error not only in that accusation, but in your attribution to me that I stated that, ''sonic boom was part of your 'key plan' ". That statement was made by another member, not me. Re-read my initial post. I never said that.

Clearly you are looking for a fight and I am not about to supply it. Through with you now.

 

[Thermactor]

IMO If you want a round that uses a 180-185 gr bullet at fast speeds, than trade in the .45 auto and get yourself a .40 smith or a 10mm.


The .45 auto was designed in the 230 gr pill heading at about 850-900 fps, Let the round do what it was designed to do and that is to put a heavy slug into the assailant

As far as the shock and awe factor , Ive shot .44 magnums indoors with no hearing protection in self defense, trust me the noise level and muzzle flash made just about the whole room seem to shake.

Try that with a 308 AR. My ears rang cartoonishly for a few days. Things to never do again..

 

[ku4hx]

Auditory exclusion is a proven neuro-physiological effect.

A single point in a data set proves exactly nothing, but I have fired a full house 40 S&W round in a small room. The simple fact is I didn't even think about my hearing until later. And that was after talking with my wife and the deputy that got to us pretty quickly. I'd say about an hour had passed before I noticed my left ear was ringing a bit and actual conversation was unaffected.

And, I barely remembered the actual report from the shot.

As with pretty much everything else related to the human experience, we all perceive the world differently. But to dismiss a known human response is a mistake. By the same token, it's generally a mistake to count on some of them every time.

As to bullet weight, I favor 230 grain. I load thousands of other weights every year (180, 200, 225 cast) but the 230 is my goto weight for "business".