243 on Mule deer too light?

[CraigC]

The math doesn't work. It takes 0.3 seconds for a bullet traveling at 2800 fps to go 300 yds. Literally in the blink of an eye. I watch deer on my property almost everyday and they just don't move that fast unless they sense danger. In that situation they're about to move or already moving. In the case of about to move they will be looking in the direction where they sense the danger, or looking at you.

Is that how head shots turn into jaw shots, because deer move slow? It is entirely possible for a deer to move between the time that your brain decides to press the trigger, your finger goes through the process of pressing it and the bullet flies to the target. Ever call a flyer? Same concept. It's not 'just' about flight time.

If you're counting on perfect conditions every single time. You either don't live on this planet, or you're lying to yourself and others.

I really do not understand this race to the bottom. As if using a lesser and lesser cartridge somehow proves something positive about the person using it. I don't abide stunts.

 

[dranrab]

A broadside shot that turned into a quartering away shot because the animal took a step to the side as you were pulling the trigger. Now you have to power through a foot or two of gut cavity before you reach the vitals

A non-factor for a cartridge like a .270 or 30-06
A bad scenario for that .243

Let's step aside from the scenario that just doesn't play out in real life, to real world experience. How many experiences have you had with the 270, 30-06 and 243 where you have to go through 2 feet of guts to get to the vitals and what results did it have on the vitals?

 

[CraigC]

Let's step aside from the scenario that just doesn't play out in real life, to real world experience. How many experiences have you had with the 270, 30-06 and 243 where you have to go through 2 feet of guts to get to the vitals and what results did it have on the vitals?

How many times have you taken a shot with the .243 that wasn't a perfect textbook broadside double lunger?

Would you continue to use a cartridge that you watched the bullet blow up on a rib?

 

[silicosys4]

Let's step aside from the scenario that just doesn't play out in real life, to real world experience. How many experiences have you had with the 270, 30-06 and 243 where you have to go through 2 feet of guts to get to the vitals and what results did it have on the vitals?

Doesn't play out in real life? This exact same scenario has happened to me multiple times.
I've taken quartering away shots on deer with 150gr out a 30-06. The last one was a medium size buck, shot quartering away at about 200 yards. I made it through the stomach, into the lungs, through the lungs, and exited the off side. That bullet went through 3 feet of deer and made a 2" exit wound right behind the shoulder. That buck hunched up, took two steps, and fell. That was the only harvest opportunity I had all season, and If I were an ETHICAL hunter with a .243 i'd have to had passed the shot up and left the freezer empty that year.

 

[dranrab]

I already did. 100gr bullets blowing up on the ribcage of an 80lb doe.

A ballistic tip is not an Accubond or Partition. It was originally a varmint bullet and I would NEVER depend on one to bust through a shoulder at anywhere near 3000fps. At 1800fps? Whatcha gonna do when that muley is 50yds away, turn around and run 400yds???



I was very clear what I meant. As I said, it's not about hitting or missing. In my opinion, the diehard .243 fans operate in a vacuum. They're in the habit of waiting for that perfect broadside shot or they don't shoot and they think it's the only way anyone hunts. As a handgun hunter, I'm quite accustomed to having the option of breaking a shoulder or taking quartering shots that would not be advisable with a pasture poodle cartridge. I want an exit wound. Bullets that fragment and don't exit give me the willies.



Yes, I did and if a bullet fails on whitetail doe, is it going to do better on bigger deer? I was unaware that we could not hunt outside our home state.

LOLOLOL. What a ballistic tip may or may not have been originally has nothing to do with what they are now. That you invoked those words illustrates that you are more emotionally driven than factually driven. The original 270 130 grain ballistic tip was overly explosive. Nosler redesigned it and several others. Far too many hunters base their opinion on what used to be and decades of lore. The modern 90 grain NBT, Accubond and Partition will smash through bone to reach the vitals on any shot from the muzzle out until they hit that 1800-1900 fps window. I base that on my own experiences and the experiences of others. Enough experiences to count as more than an anecdote. People who actually shoot deer with modern 243 or even 223 hunting bullets know full well that they aren't marginal within their velocity window. Bullets that fragment do far more damage to vital organs than those that stay together, especially monos. Those with enough game kills to rise above the anecdotal level will tell you that a fragmenting bullet that reaches the vitals will result in a deer that doesn't run as far as one that has been hit with a mono that passes through.

If we are going to dabble in anecdotes, I have had to help far more people track deer that were shot with heavier recoiling rounds than lighter recoiling rounds, and in reading over perhaps hundreds of posts on forums such as this, my experience is more common than the other way around.

It's obvious that I won't change your mind, and that's not my goal. My goal is to provide information to those who may be open minded.

 

[dranrab]

How many times have you taken a shot with the .243 that wasn't a perfect textbook broadside double lunger?

Would you continue to use a cartridge that you watched the bullet blow up on a rib?

You didn't answer my question, but you expect me to answer yours? That doesn't lend itself to good conversation. I'll answer your question anyway. I haven't shot any deer with a 243 that weren't perfect broadsides. I have with a 6MM remington and an 85 grain partition and I have with a 257 Roberts and Ballistic Tips and partitions. I have with the 223 as well. I actually prefer to involve a "shoulder" as my experience tells me that doing so is more likely to drop them on the spot. I mostly hunt thick southern woods where a 40 yard death dash can spell one hell of an adventure finding the animal.

A "cartridge" didn't blow up on the rib cage, a bullet did. It's obvious that that bullet wasn't well designed or built for that task. I'd seek out a different bullet. Did you recover the deer that the bullet blew up on? What vital organ did it hit? What did the organ or organs look like?

 

[dranrab]

Doesn't play out in real life? This exact same scenario has happened to me multiple times.
I've taken quartering away shots on deer with 150gr out a 30-06. The last one was a medium size buck, shot quartering away at about 200 yards. I made it through the stomach, into the lungs, through the lungs, and exited the off side. That bullet went through 3 feet of deer and made a 2" exit wound right behind the shoulder. That buck hunched up, took two steps, and fell. That was the only harvest opportunity I had all season, and If I were an ETHICAL hunter with a .243 i'd have to had passed the shot up and left the freezer empty that year.

No experience with that shot and a 243? I wouldn't pass up on that shot with either my 223, my 243 or my 257 Roberts, and the deer would die quickly. I note that you did not describe the damage to the vitals.

 

[WisBorn]

The math doesn't work. It takes 0.3 seconds for a bullet traveling at 2800 fps to go 300 yds. Literally in the blink of an eye. I watch deer on my property almost everyday and they just don't move that fast unless they sense danger. In that situation they're about to move or already moving. In the case of about to move they will be looking in the direction where they sense the danger, or looking at you.

Sorry - bow hunters will testify the truth about string jump. A deer can drop a bodies width in 0.3 seconds. The speed of sound is 1087 fps so the bullet will be there before the sound. But yes they can move a lot before the bullet arrives for no apparent reason????

 

[silicosys4]

No experience with that shot and a 243? I wouldn't pass up on that shot with either my 223, my 243 or my 257 Roberts,

Good for you.

and the deer would die quickly.

Uh, Ok. Not sure how you can predict that, but sure

I note that you did not describe the damage to the vitals.

Catastrophic and unsurvivable.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Yes, I did and if a bullet fails on whitetail doe, is it going to do better on bigger deer? I was unaware that we could not hunt outside our home state.

I didn't have to travel outside of my home state to hunt mule deer. I shot my first one when I was 16. I hunted in AZ for about 10 years. Most of the folks I hunted with grew up hunting deer in WY or MT. They both hunted mule deer with a .243. If it didn't work I seriously doubt they would have have been using it. Again, I have no experience using a 243 on mule deer but I've seen a few killed with it.

My deer hunting experiences must be vastly different than yours and that's all I want to say about that.

 

[dranrab]

These threads, no matter the forum, always go the same. People with no, to very little, experience (which typically took place when bullets were of questionable quality) bemoan the 243 and other lighter deer chamberings as inadequate. When asked to share their experiences in detail, they balk or admit that they haven't had any. Those that do shoot deer with lighter chamberings and the right bullets will happily share pics and give details of damage to vitals.

This thread https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/17914841/1 and this thread https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/ show that play out.

It comes down to people arguing anecdotes and/or beliefs against real world relevant experiences. I am not completely dismissing anecdotes as not having value, it's just that I place much more stock in statistically significant samplings.

 

[dranrab]

No experience with that shot and a 243? I wouldn't pass up on that shot with either my 223, my 243 or my 257 Roberts, and the deer would die quickly. I note that you did not describe the damage to the vitals.

Good for you.



Uh, Ok. Not sure how you can predict that, but sure



Catastrophic and unsurvivable.

We made progress. You admitted that you didn't have experience with the 243. I do have experience with it, others that are similar in terms of diameter bullet weight and velocity, and even with the little 223. That's how I can be sure.

 

[silicosys4]

We made progress. You admitted that you didn't have experience with the 243. I do have experience with it, others that are similar in terms of diameter bullet weight and velocity, and even with the little 223. That's how I can be sure.

Buddy, you do whatever you are going to do. At this point from what you've said I don't really consider your arguments to be those of an ethical hunter, so you do you and I'll be over here not paying you any further attention.

 

[CraigC]

You didn't answer my question, but you expect me to answer yours? That doesn't lend itself to good conversation. I'll answer your question anyway. I haven't shot any deer with a 243 that weren't perfect broadsides. I have with a 6MM remington and an 85 grain partition and I have with a 257 Roberts and Ballistic Tips and partitions. I have with the 223 as well. I actually prefer to involve a "shoulder" as my experience tells me that doing so is more likely to drop them on the spot. I mostly hunt thick southern woods where a 40 yard death dash can spell one hell of an adventure finding the animal.

A "cartridge" didn't blow up on the rib cage, a bullet did. It's obvious that that bullet wasn't well designed or built for that task. I'd seek out a different bullet. Did you recover the deer that the bullet blew up on? What vital organ did it hit? What did the organ or organs look like?

You didn't ask me that question.

So a 100gr .243 is not deer load? I don't give a rat's ass that the deer was recovered, that's not the point. The point is that the bullet failed and did so in spectacular fashion. A deer bullet should not perform like a varmint bullet, ever.

I ask again, if you had a catastrophic failure with a cartridge using a supposed appropriate load for the job, how many more chances would you give it? Had the same story play out with 100gr loads in the .250Savage. Which is why I switched to Barnes TSX's. I'd rather have the rifle rebarreled to something more useful.

I'll say it again, ballistic tips are not Accubonds. Sorry but no, they're not designed to smash through bone. I chuckle at the thought. Generally, no cup & core bullet is going to perform like a bonded bullet, unless you're way under its rated velocity range.

My experience was very negative. Yours was positive. Maybe I was unlucky. Maybe you are lucky. Maybe our expectations are just different. Either way, I would NOT hunt mule deer with any 6mm.

I didn't have to travel outside of my home state to hunt mule deer. I shot my first one when I was 16. I hunted in AZ for about 10 years. Most of the folks I hunted with grew up hunting deer in WY or MT. They both hunted mule deer with a .243. If it didn't work I seriously doubt they would have have been using it. Again, I have no experience using a 243 on mule deer but I've seen a few killed with it.

My deer hunting experiences must be vastly different than yours and that's all I want to say about that.

Good for you but I don't see how that's relevant.

Obviously lots of folks are .243 fans. I am not. Based on failure not he-said, she-said conjecture or gun shop myth & legend. Why would I continue to use something that failed? Why would I use something that failed on 80lb does on something three or four times the size?

Why would people use substantially larger cartridges for deer sized game if the .243 is all one ever needs? Maybe it isn't?

 

[CraigC]

Buddy, you do whatever you are going to do. At this point from what you've said I don't really consider your arguments to be those of an ethical hunter, so you do you and I'll be over here not paying you any further attention.

IMHO, there are probably failures that are not being reported.

 

[dranrab]

So a 100gr .243 is not deer load? I don't give a rat's ass that the deer was recovered, that's not the point. The point is that the bullet failed and did so in spectacular fashion. A deer bullet should not perform like a varmint bullet, ever.

I ask again, if you had a catastrophic failure with a cartridge using a supposed appropriate load for the job, how many more chances would you give it? Had the same story play out with 100gr loads in the .250Savage. Which is why I switched to Barnes TSX's. I'd rather have the rifle rebarreled to something more useful.

I'll say it again, ballistic tips are not Accubonds. Sorry but no, they're not designed to smash through bone. I chuckle at the thought. Generally, no cup & core bullet is going to perform like a bonded bullet, unless you're way under its rated velocity range.

I don't know when you used that 100 grain bullet or which one it was. Today's cup and core bullets are not the same as those from 2 decades ago. I mentioned the 130 grain original ballistic tip as being one that gave the rest of them a bad rap. There were others that were not well designed. There have been batches of other bullets that were not well executed. I suspect if you asked Nosler about whether or not their Hunting Ballistic Tips were designed to be tough enough to break bone and reach the vitals, they'd tell you that they were designed to be able to do that. Whether or not they are, they do. Just like Sierra Tipped Game Kings. Even the Tipped Match Kings are known to be bone breaking tough, even the 69 and 77 grain 223 TMKs.

I have had catastrophic failures with bullets out of both the 223 and the 243, but those failures have nothing to do with modern hunting bullets in either caliber. With the growing body of experience with good bullets in the 223, most states now allow its use. Companies are now selling 22 caliber deer ammo.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Sorry - bow hunters will testify the truth about string jump. A deer can drop a bodies width in 0.3 seconds. The speed of sound is 1087 fps so the bullet will be there before the sound. But yes they can move a lot before the bullet arrives for no apparent reason????

The sound of a bow string will reach a deer before an arrow given the deer is 150' or less from the archer, the arrow travels at 255 fps and sound travels at 1078 fps. The sound reaches the deer in 0.14 seconds. The arrow reaches the deer in 0.56 seconds. I wish my reflexes were that good.

I've never seen a deer move because of the muzzle blast from a rifle. I've seen them move because of bullets though. Generally, if one shoots within a reasonable distance (300 yds) and the deer is not disturbed or alerted they will be exactly where they were when you took the shot. Trick is to know your trigger, keep your shots within a reasonable range and not shoot at a moving deer. The first two you can control, the last one you can't. I'm still not seeing that as a reason not to use a .243 however, or a muzzle loader, or even a bow.

 

[dranrab]

Buddy, you do whatever you are going to do. At this point from what you've said I don't really consider your arguments to be those of an ethical hunter, so you do you and I'll be over here not paying you any further attention.

Be sure to send Winchester a tersely worded letter about their eithics.

https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Rifle/Deer-Season-XP/X223DS

And Federal, Remington, etc.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/story/guns/the-best-223-loads-for-deer/

 

[silicosys4]

Be sure to send Winchester a tersely worded letter about their eithics.

https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Rifle/Deer-Season-XP/X223DS

And Federal, Remington, etc.

https://www.fieldandstream.com/story/guns/the-best-223-loads-for-deer/

I don't see them recommending the use of 90 gr. varmint bullets for 500 yard shots at deer, making misleading claims about those bullets "smashing bone" at 500 yards, or recommending quartering away shots on deer with cartridges that are marginal for the job.

 

[dranrab]

I don't see them making any claims about 90 gr. varmint bullets "smashing bone" at 500 yards, or recommending quartering away shots on deer with cartridges that are marginal for the job.

To be clear, I have not advocated for the use of any 90 grain varmint bullet. Nosler's 90 grain Ballistic Tip is designed as a Hunting bullet. Nosler's hunting Ballistic Tips have "hunting" labeling and their varmint Ballistic Tips have "varmint" labeling.

You don't see your ammo maker of choice making any claims about their bullets "smashing bone" at 500 yards, or recommending quartering away shots on deer either. Does that mean they are marginal for such uses?

 

[MacAR]

I like my 243 as well as the next man, but I've also got sense enough to use it "correctly". I've yet to see any 6mm bullet "smash bone" like an '06 or 30-30, and so I make shots accordingly. Behind the shoulder works well, and neck shots are very effective. Heck, I've neck shot deer with my 222, and put them down where they stood. But, I knew the range, and know my rifle well enough to know how to hold to make a good shot. Under other circumstances I'd have passed on the shot. The 243 is a marksmans rifle, any way you slice it and no cartridge on earth makes up for poor shooting. If you're good enough, a 22 short will kill an elk; doesn't mean everyone should use it, though.

Mac

 

[silicosys4]

To be clear, I have not advocated for the use of any 90 grain varmint bullet. Nosler's 90 grain Ballistic Tip is designed as a Hunting bullet. Nosler's hunting Ballistic Tips have "hunting" labeling and their varmint Ballistic Tips have "varmint" labeling.

You don't see your ammo maker of choice making any claims about their bullets "smashing bone" at 500 yards, or recommending quartering away shots on deer either. Does that mean they are marginal for such uses?

You do you. I am not interested in what you are selling.

 

[dranrab]

You do you. I am not interested in what you are selling.

A lot of people are emotionally driven and closed minded to fact and logic. I point to the White House as evidence. Those who are open minded, willing to listen to logic and willing to challenge their bias through research will appreciate the information and the links that I have presented.

 

[dranrab]

I like my 243 I've yet to see any 6mm bullet "smash bone" like an '06 or 30-30,

The 243 is a marksmans rifle


Mac

Have you ever driven a 6mm bullet through bone?

What chambering do you have to get to before it is no longer a marksman's rifle and why?

 

[silicosys4]

A lot of people are emotionally driven and closed minded to fact and logic. I point to the White House as evidence. Those who are open minded, willing to listen to logic and willing to challenge their bias through research will appreciate the information and the links that I have presented.

Yea...you presented some outrageous assertions that are clearly ridiculous and then used emotion and condescension to try and bully your way through a disagreement.
Facts and logic will tell you that people who view the .243 as sub optimal for longer distances and marginal shots on deer size animals, people who prefer a larger cartridge with more margin are making a perfectly reasonable choice in passing by the .243 and have perfectly reasonable reasons for doing so.

You are clearly a koolaid drinking fanboi. To each their own.