243 on Mule deer too light?

[dranrab]

Yea...you presented some outrageous assertions that are clearly ridiculous and then used emotion and condescension to try and bully your way through a disagreement.
Facts and logic will tell you that people who view the .243 as sub optimal for longer distances and marginal shots on deer size animals, people who prefer a larger cartridge with more margin are making a perfectly reasonable choice in passing by the .243 and have perfectly reasonable reasons for doing so.

You are clearly a koolaid drinking fanboi. To each their own.

Let's clear something up for the readers. What experience do you have with a 90 grain 243 Ballistic tips at 1800-1900 FPS impact velocities?

 

[silicosys4]

Let's clear something up for the readers. What experience do you have with a 90 grain 243 Ballistic tips at 1800-1900 FPS impact velocities?

Buddy, I don't need to get into a car with all drum brakes and drive it to know its not what I want to do.
I had a .243, I looked at its capabilities, looked at its limitations, and decided I didn't want to live with them if I didn't have to.

There is a saying. Smart people learn from others mistakes
the average person learns from their own mistakes
stupid people never learn.

 

[dranrab]

Let's clear something up for the readers. What experience do you have with a 90 grain 243 Ballistic tips at 1800-1900 FPS impact velocities?

None.

Just to make it easier for others to read. It fascinates me the lengths people will go though to avoid answering a simple question in a straightforward manner.

 

[silicosys4]

Buddy, I don't need to get into a car with no brakes and drive it to know its not what I want to do.

Just to make it easier for others to read. It fascinates me the lengths people will go though to avoid answering a simple question in a straightforward manner.

Yup, what experience do you have climbing into an operating trash compactor?
NONE?!?
How do you know climbing into operating trash compactors isn't for you? After all, the other guys at work have been getting away with it for years so it must be the optimum method of clearing jams. there is this one guy there who won't do it because he says there are better and safer ways of doing the job. He's an idiot.

This is literally your argument right now.

 

[dranrab]

Yup, what experience do you have climbing into an operating trash compactor?
NONE?!?
How do you know climbing into operating trash compactors isn't for you? After all, there is this one guy at work, he's been getting away with it for years so it must be the optimum method of clearing jams. there is this one guy there who won't do it because he says there are better and safer ways of doing the job. He's an idiot.

This is literally your argument right now.

No, no it isn't my argument. Not even close. I shoot deer with the 223, 6mm, and 257. At 1800-1900 FPS, using bullets such as the Nosler Ballistic tip, all of them will break shoulder and destroy deer heart.

There have been a lot of people that started reading this thread thinking the 223 was inadequate for deer, and changed their mind because of the evidence that was presented. https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/ But you won't read it. You'll summarily dismiss it, certain you are right in your bias. Some of the contributors have sample sizes that run into the 100s of animals.

 

[silicosys4]

No, no it isn't my argument. Not even close. I shoot deer with the 223, 6mm, and 257. At 1800-1900 FPS, using bullets such as the Nosler Ballistic tip, all of them will break shoulder and destroy deer heart.

There have been a lot of people that started reading this thread thinking the 223 was inadequate for deer, and changed their mind because of the evidence that was presented. https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/ But you won't read it. You'll summarily dismiss it, certain you are right in your bias. Some of the contributors have sample sizes that run into the 100s of animals.

I also don't think .223 is adequate for deer.
Buddy, i'm not buying what you are selling and I never will. Try someone else.

 

[mshootnit]

243 Winchester is not too light or small for Mule deer. It is not a race to the bottom. The cartridge has been popular for over 60 years on deer. So that is a mighty slow race. A person may have had a bullet blow up on a rib. I have seen 150 gr. SSTs fired from 21" barrel 308 also hit rib and kareem wildly. That does not mean the cartridge is inadequate.
243 is not free from asterisks however. In this chambering, there are many varmint bullets and these should not considered all around deer bullets. There are some 85 gr. hollowpoints that some have used a lot, and others have found wanting. There are some 87 gr. Spire points, likewise many have used on deer.
I stick to the 100 gr. offerings. I use the Sierra Pro Hunters. I have had pass throughs at 175 yds. Very clean kills.

 

[dranrab]

I also don't think .223 is adequate for deer.
Buddy, i'm not buying what you are selling and I never will. Try someone else.

I'd encourage you to read more closely. I have dealt with closed mined humans enough to know that I won't change their mind. My reason for contributing is for the benefit of those who are open minded.

 

[silicosys4]

I'd encourage you to read more closely. I have dealt with closed mined humans enough to know that I won't change their mind. My reason for contributing is for the benefit of those who are open minded.

Why do you assume I haven't read closely?
I'm not interested in limiting my harvest opportunities by using a cartridge that would force me to forego shots that I'd be able to confidently and ethically take with other cartridges.
You do You.

I'll tell you one thing. I've never had to pass up a shot, I've never lost a deer and i've never had a deer run even 25 yards out of eyesight, let alone far enough to need tracking. I've put a lot of meat in the freezer that wouldn't have been there if I'd been limited to what a .243 can ethically do.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I like my 243 as well as the next man, but I've also got sense enough to use it "correctly". I've yet to see any 6mm bullet "smash bone" like an '06 or 30-30, and so I make shots accordingly. Behind the shoulder works well, and neck shots are very effective. Heck, I've neck shot deer with my 222, and put them down where they stood. But, I knew the range, and know my rifle well enough to know how to hold to make a good shot. Under other circumstances I'd have passed on the shot. The 243 is a marksmans rifle, any way you slice it and no cartridge on earth makes up for poor shooting. If you're good enough, a 22 short will kill an elk; doesn't mean everyone should use it, though.

Mac

Exactly.

6mm Creedmoor (.243 enhanced) is becoming a very popular precision rifle cartridge and lately hunters are discovering it's use as a hunting cartridge. It may never replace the .243 because old timers are usually just going to shoot what they know works and what they already own.

Here is a good discussion of the differences between the .243 Win. and 6mm Creedmoor. For hunting applications inside of 300 yds, I'm not seeing a lot of difference. For longer ranges the advantage should be clear enough.

https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/6mm-creedmoor/

I might add here that the people I know that used a .243 for mule deer had one rifle for medium sized game. That was in the 70's. They also hunted antelope. Ranges are typically longer in that application because antelope have better eyesight than deer and live in open country. So they either couldn't afford another rifle or didn't feel they needed one.

My point is that 6mm whatever has made some very big advances since then with bullet and case improvements. One doesn't need a 7mm or 30 cal crackenboomer to shoot a deer, even a mule deer. One of the reasons magnums are falling by the wayside. Cartridges evolve, even the .243.

 

[Sniper66]

Many 1,000s of mule deer have died from well placed .243 rounds. it is absolutely fine for mule deer

 

[someguy2800]

Texas heart shot. When I was about 15, my cousin came to get me to help him get a dead deer back to the house. He was walking to his deer stand and flushed a 6 point buck from cover and it was running away from him. I would not have taken such a shot, but he did. He said it dropped as soon as he hit it. There was no bullet entry hole. Bullet went straight up the tailpipe. You could take that shot a million times and never duplicate it. I helped him hang it and gut it. Guts were a mess, and diaphragm punctured by numerous fragments that carried on in to lungs. That was with a 243. Worked that time......but not recommended.

I did it once with a 7.62x39 on a buck. I broke his shoulder on the first shot and I was afraid it didn’t make it through so I gave him the texas heart shot as he turned to go into the slough. It dumped him right there. I thought I was going to have a real mess to clean up but it went perfectly between the hams and I didn’t loose any meat at all.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Buddy, I don't need to get into a car with all drum brakes and drive it to know its not what I want to do.
I had a .243, I looked at its capabilities, looked at its limitations, and decided I didn't want to live with them if I didn't have to.

The rifle is just part of the equation.

 

[someguy2800]

How many times have you taken a shot with the .243 that wasn't a perfect textbook broadside double lunger?

Would you continue to use a cartridge that you watched the bullet blow up on a rib?

I’m in general agreement with you, but what you describe here is a bullet failure, not a failure of the cartridge pushing it or the particular bore size.

 

[silicosys4]

The rifle is just part of the equation.

It's the part we are talking about.

 

[silicosys4]

I’m in general agreement with you, but what you describe here is a bullet failure, not a failure of the cartridge pushing it or the particular bore size.

Yup, bullets do all kinds of unpredictible things inside an animal and often behave in ways contrary to manufacturers claims or anecdotal experience.

That is why people including myself are arguing that using a more capable cartridge that leaves a margin for those kinds of failures is wise.

I consider it a failure of the cartridge if it i cannot be trusted to perform as needed except under optimal circumstances. A 30-06 C&C bullet for example could fail in exactly the same way yet still retain enough bullet mass to penetrate.

Fanboi status does not override physics. Mass matters.

 

[someguy2800]

LOLOLOL. What a ballistic tip may or may not have been originally has nothing to do with what they are now. That you invoked those words illustrates that you are more emotionally driven than factually driven. The original 270 130 grain ballistic tip was overly explosive. Nosler redesigned it and several others. Far too many hunters base their opinion on what used to be and decades of lore. The modern 90 grain NBT, Accubond and Partition will smash through bone to reach the vitals on any shot from the muzzle out until they hit that 1800-1900 fps window. I base that on my own experiences and the experiences of others. Enough experiences to count as more than an anecdote. People who actually shoot deer with modern 243 or even 223 hunting bullets know full well that they aren't marginal within their velocity window. Bullets that fragment do far more damage to vital organs than those that stay together, especially monos. Those with enough game kills to rise above the anecdotal level will tell you that a fragmenting bullet that reaches the vitals will result in a deer that doesn't run as far as one that has been hit with a mono that passes through.

If we are going to dabble in anecdotes, I have had to help far more people track deer that were shot with heavier recoiling rounds than lighter recoiling rounds, and in reading over perhaps hundreds of posts on forums such as this, my experience is more common than the other way around.

It's obvious that I won't change your mind, and that's not my goal. My goal is to provide information to those who may be open minded.

The nosler Ballistic tips I’ve tested all fragmented and lost their cores even at very low impact velocities. I’ve tested the 125 grain 308 at 1900 fps in a 30 Herrett and 2500 fps in a 7.62x39, and 165 and 180 grain 308 at about 2300 fps from a 30-40 krag and they all fragmented. The only deer I’ve shot with one was a 120 grain .257 from a 25-06 and it blew up internally and failed to exit. Based on these experiences I would never ever use a NBT. I was shocked to see the 125 from the 30 Herrett explode at only 1900 fps when shot into water jugs. I was thinking it was going to be too slow to expand at all and I got 2 jugs full of bits with nothing exiting the 2nd jug. Even revolver bullets don’t blow up that bad at that speed. The accubonds however are pretty good bullets. The jacket below was from a 180 NBT shot into a snowbank and found the next spring. I’ve tested those in jugs also with the same results.

 

[dranrab]

The nosler Ballistic tips I’ve tested all fragmented and lost their cores even at very low impact velocities. I’ve tested the 125 grain 308 at 2000 and 2500 fps, and 165 and 180 grain 308 at about 2300 fps and they all fragmented. The only deer I’ve shot with one was a 120 grain .257 from a 25-06 and it blew up internally and failed to exit. Based on these experiences I would never ever use a NBT. The accubonds however are pretty good bullets.

View attachment 1121681

When was this, how old were the bullets and what did you shoot them into? What did the one you shot into a deer do to the vital organs?

 

[silicosys4]

When was this, how old were the bullets and what did you shoot them into? What did the one you shot into a deer do to the vital organs?

Where do you get this idea that fragmentation is desirable to everyone in a hunting bullet for anything bigger than varmints? Personally, I'd rather that my bullet stays together and travels along the path to and through the vitals that I choose for it, penetrating as deeply as possible instead of blowing into smaller, less dense, poorly penetrating bits that unpredictably go everywhere, end up in my sausage, my steaks, my roasts, and maybe if I'm lucky some might also end up into the vital organs that I originally aimed them at.

I would rather spend time gutting my deer than looking for it, I'd rather spend my time eating my steaks, not picking lead out of them , and I'd rather eat my deer than throw bloodshot meat in the garbage.

 

[dranrab]

Where do you get this idea that fragmentation is desirable to everyone in a hunting bullet for anything bigger than varmints? Personally, I'd rather that my bullet stays together and travels along the path to and through the vitals that I choose for it, penetrating as deeply as possible instead of blowing into smaller, less dense, poorly penetrating bits that unpredictably go everywhere, end up in my sausage, my steaks, my roasts, and maybe if I'm lucky some might also end up into the vital organs that I originally aimed them at.

I would rather spend time gutting my deer than looking for it, I'd rather spend my time eating my steaks, not picking lead out of them , and I'd rather eat my deer than throw bloodshot meat in the garbage.

I am confused as to why you are still asking me questions when you have said that you are "not buying what I am selling, and never will."

 

[mshootnit]

Exactly.

6mm Creedmoor (.243 enhanced) is becoming a very popular precision rifle cartridge and lately hunters are discovering it's use as a hunting cartridge. It may never replace the .243 because old timers are usually just going to shoot what they know works and what they already own.

Here is a good discussion of the differences between the .243 Win. and 6mm Creedmoor. For hunting applications inside of 300 yds, I'm not seeing a lot of difference. For longer ranges the advantage should be clear enough.

https://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/6mm-creedmoor/

I might add here that the people I know that used a .243 for mule deer had one rifle for medium sized game. That was in the 70's. They also hunted antelope. Ranges are typically longer in that application because antelope have better eyesight than deer and live in open country. So they either couldn't afford another rifle or didn't feel they needed one.

My point is that 6mm whatever has made some very big advances since then with bullet and case improvements. One doesn't need a 7mm or 30 cal crackenboomer to shoot a deer, even a mule deer. One of the reasons magnums are falling by the wayside. Cartridges evolve, even the .243.

Well, the 6 creed allows you to use bullets that are 10 gr. heavier. Ballistics to 400 yds between these two do not offer any real advantage for hunting. The 10 gr. heavier bullet is nice if presented as a well designed hunting bullet, which of course most are not. For example a 110 Partition, Scirocco, A Frame or Accubond would be nice. The non bonded and explosive eld x are no improvement for hunting over traditional 100 gr. SP bullets. They are better target bullets, which most shooters now prefer.

 

[Mal H]

It's obvious that this thread is done. The OP has gotten more than sufficient answers to his original question. The seeming on-going argument between two members isn't helping at all.
Closed.