.260 remington VS. 6.5CM The Truth about all

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So a question I have asked multiple times to the OP, but have yet to receive an answer:

Why have ALL top shooters in long range competition given up on the 260 Remington? The 6.5 Creedmoor remains, but the 260 has completely fallen off of the map.

Noting here, a presumed favor for several of your preference for the .260rem:

• These are custom rifles with custom barrels, giving equal opportunity for any shooter to maximize performance by ordering custom twists and custom throats for their bullet choice.

• These are ALMOST exclusively reloaders, giving the shooters access to load their ammo to whatever pressure standard they see fit.

• These are long range competitors focused on gaining any advantage for ballistic coefficient and velocity they can find.

So why would these shooters, with access to both 6.5 creed and 260 Rem completely abandon the 260, but remain to use the 6.5 creed? Equally, why did they completely abandon the 243win, with the 6mm Creedmoor being the second most popular cartridge in the game?

Precision Rifle Blog publishes a series of “load out articles,” following the PRS Finale (and now NRL Finale too). They missed 2017, but the data is below for 2015, 2016, and 2018.

There were 6 shooters in the top 100 in 2015 using the 260, with 18 using 6.5 creed. Only one shooter using 243win, with 18 using 6 creed (a wildcat only option at that time, as it wasn’t SAAMI standardized until 2017).

View attachment 861147

The subsequent year, only ONE shooter remained shooting 260 Remington, and only ONE with 243win, while 9 used the 6.5 creed, and 6 used the 6 creed (again, still a non-SAAMI wildcat).

View attachment 861145

Two seasons later, the 260 is completely off of the map, 6 shooters still using the 6.5 creed, and 35 shooters using the 6 creedmoor.

View attachment 861144

So what magic sauce have you discovered which proves all of these top level competitive long range shooters haven’t been able to see? These top shooters which include professional shooter teams, professional manufacturers of bullets/ammo/powder, and some of the most talented and respected rifle builders (no teams or individual shooters sponsored by SAAMI, last I knew)... What do you know about the 308win case which has somehow escaped these professional competitors, such they made the “bad decision” to drop the 260 and 243 for the 6.5 and 6 creeds?
These guys happen to be sponsored?

Then does that sponsorship help people like you buy the hype?

The Magic sauce is coming.

I'm baffled by why you ignore several facts and references to load data/manufacturers incomplete or none matching data,border line dangerous in your own opinion as with the 357 mag data above, without coming down on them as you do me. What they say is God's word what I say is blasphemy? You have zero non-bias facts at all. All you site are references from the very people I am telling you manipulate it.
 
They dont load the 142Gr SMK in the 6.5cm because it sucks. cannot even get close to the velocity of the 260 rem. the bullet is to long to obtain that kind of B.C.

Another statement which doesn't hold water - there are plenty of longer bullets, even with higher BC's, being used in 6.5 Creedmoor. Every time you post something, it becomes more and more obvious how little experience you have with these cartridges, and equally, how unwilling you are to do YOUR OWN RESEARCH to learn something new.

The 142 SMK is 1.375" long with a G1 of 0.611 at the speeds we're considering - so you're saying it's "to[sic] long" for the 6.5 creed, and also implying the 6.5 Creed can't "obtain that kind of B.C."... So let's look what's out there...

Here are a few other bullets guys are having high successes with in the 6.5 Creed. Mind you, these are bullets popular with long range, competitive shooters, who care significantly about their ballistic performance, with investment in custom rifles which could be chambered in any cartridge they wanted....

The 140 Hornady ELDm is 1.374" with a BC of 0.646, the 143 ELDx is 1.440" with a BC of 0.625, and the ELDm 147 is also 1.440" with a BC 0.697. I personally shot the 140 in my RPR when I started with it, running about 2680fps in factory loads, claimed, and 2720 in hand loads seated a little longer over a max load. One of my good friend's Tikka's runs the 140 at 2770. Hornady states the 147grn ELD factory load should leave the station at 2695fps, which isn't too far from the actual MV I measured in a Bergara B14 HMR last month as I helped a new shooter at his first precision rifle match - his rifle spit the 147grn 6.5 creed factory load out there at 2657fps average, with an SD of 16fps. The 140 Berger Hybrid is 1.426" long with a .607 BC.

The new 153 Hornady A-tip is 1.504" long with a BC of 0.704. Hornady's issued data for the 153 puts it at 2600-2650fps top end from the 6.5 Creed case. I've seen some results from other shooters out there confirming low to mid 2600's with RL17 and H4350, which is incredible with a .704 BC.

I also know there are guys out there running bullets going 150+ in the 6.5 creed.

Can't lie by cherry-picking data - as you've said, the information is all readily available out there for anyone interested to look.
 
These guys happen to be sponsored?

According to one of the pro's I know, only about 1/3 of the NRL finale shooters were sponsored, and less than half of the PRS. Can't confirm or reject any of it.

Assuredly, Hornady's bottomline would have been better served by NOT spending millions of dollars in development producing the 6.5 Creedmoor, submitting to SAAMI review for compliance, launching a marketing campaign, and asking manufacturers to produce open-source products, if they could have simply achieved the successes in competition with the 260. These pro shooters were shooting the old rounds, and asked for something better.

I also have never met a businessman who worked for "6.5 creedmoor." If your explication is "they shoot it because they're paid to," then tell me who pays the bills to convince a competitor to use a 6 Dasher? When nobody is making factory ammunition, nor factory rifles for it? 6 BRA, 6 BRX, 6x47Lapua, 6xc, 6GT, 6.5 Addiction... What major corporate sponsor is stacking the deck to drive rifle or ammunition sales by fronting a shooter with these wildcat only cartridges?

If your conspiracy theory were correct, and these shooters are only using the 6.5 or 6 creedmoor because of sponsorship support, why was the number one cartridge used last season a wildcat? Why were ~54 of the top 125 PRS shooters in the country using various 6mm BR variants, with nobody making factory ammo or rifles for any of them, and only 2 or 3 companies in the world making brass?

Answer a few simple questions without delving further and further into unsubstantiated conspiracy theories, or deflecting into some random BS about .357mag load data, and then maybe you MIGHT be able to support your claims. But so far, I haven't seen anything compelling except a lot of handwaving, cherry picking, and tinfoil...
 
Another statement which doesn't hold water - there are plenty of longer bullets, even with higher BC's, being used in 6.5 Creedmoor. Every time you post something, it becomes more and more obvious how little experience you have with these cartridges, and equally, how unwilling you are to do YOUR OWN RESEARCH to learn something new.

The 142 SMK is 1.375" long with a G1 of 0.611 at the speeds we're considering - so you're saying it's "to[sic] long" for the 6.5 creed, and also implying the 6.5 Creed can't "obtain that kind of B.C."... So let's look what's out there...

Here are a few other bullets guys are having high successes with in the 6.5 Creed. Mind you, these are bullets popular with long range, competitive shooters, who care significantly about their ballistic performance, with investment in custom rifles which could be chambered in any cartridge they wanted....

The 140 Hornady ELDm is 1.374" with a BC of 0.646, the 143 ELDx is 1.440" with a BC of 0.625, and the ELDm 147 is also 1.440" with a BC 0.697. I personally shot the 140 in my RPR when I started with it, running about 2680fps in factory loads, claimed, and 2720 in hand loads seated a little longer over a max load. One of my good friend's Tikka's runs the 140 at 2770. Hornady states the 147grn ELD factory load should leave the station at 2695fps, which isn't too far from the actual MV I measured in a Bergara B14 HMR last month as I helped a new shooter at his first precision rifle match - his rifle spit the 147grn 6.5 creed factory load out there at 2657fps average, with an SD of 16fps. The 140 Berger Hybrid is 1.426" long with a .607 BC.

The new 153 Hornady A-tip is 1.504" long with a BC of 0.704. Hornady's issued data for the 153 puts it at 2600-2650fps top end from the 6.5 Creed case. I've seen some results from other shooters out there confirming low to mid 2600's with RL17 and H4350, which is incredible with a .704 BC.

I also know there are guys out there running bullets going 150+ in the 6.5 creed.

Can't lie by cherry-picking data - as you've said, the information is all readily available out there for anyone interested to look.

your not providing any pressure data with these claims. it must be a lie. H4350 wouldn't be a good powder with that long of bullet. couldn't get enough in the case to even get close to peak pressure. maybe RL17..... regardless. you'll let the factory hot rod the 6.5CM cartridge for the sake of sales but i cannot hot rod the 260 for the sake of true performance over the 6.5. give me a break.
 
According to one of the pro's I know, only about 1/3 of the NRL finale shooters were sponsored, and less than half of the PRS. Can't confirm or reject any of it.

Assuredly, Hornady's bottomline would have been better served by NOT spending millions of dollars in development producing the 6.5 Creedmoor, submitting to SAAMI review for compliance, launching a marketing campaign, and asking manufacturers to produce open-source products, if they could have simply achieved the successes in competition with the 260. These pro shooters were shooting the old rounds, and asked for something better.

I also have never met a businessman who worked for "6.5 creedmoor." If your explication is "they shoot it because they're paid to," then tell me who pays the bills to convince a competitor to use a 6 Dasher? When nobody is making factory ammunition, nor factory rifles for it? 6 BRA, 6 BRX, 6x47Lapua, 6xc, 6GT, 6.5 Addiction... What major corporate sponsor is stacking the deck to drive rifle or ammunition sales by fronting a shooter with these wildcat only cartridges?

If your conspiracy theory were correct, and these shooters are only using the 6.5 or 6 creedmoor because of sponsorship support, why was the number one cartridge used last season a wildcat? Why were ~54 of the top 125 PRS shooters in the country using various 6mm BR variants, with nobody making factory ammo or rifles for any of them, and only 2 or 3 companies in the world making brass?

Answer a few simple questions without delving further and further into unsubstantiated conspiracy theories, or deflecting into some random BS about .357mag load data, and then maybe you MIGHT be able to support your claims. But so far, I haven't seen anything compelling except a lot of handwaving, cherry picking, and tinfoil...

Cherry picking? im pretty sure your aware that there are NUMEROUS examples of reloading data from major company's that does not match or even come close to one another or make sense with the same powders with different names being completely different. as a FACT it would be less common for it to match.

Seems the only one i can think of off the top of my head that is getting wild numbers is the 6.5cm compared to my pressure tests vs claimed factory loads. RL 17 being one of them. claiming the velocity at 60k and really at 67k to reach claimed velocity. which is fine anything under 68500 does not flow brass. but the claim is invalid regardless.

ill put in the work and show everyone. making a video that is short yet shows everything with an explanation is very time consuming. more so than i previously estimated.
 
your not providing any pressure data with these claims. it must be a lie. H4350 wouldn't be a good powder with that long of bullet. couldn't get enough in the case to even get close to peak pressure. maybe RL17..... regardless. you'll let the factory hot rod the 6.5CM cartridge for the sake of sales but i cannot hot rod the 260 for the sake of true performance over the 6.5. give me a break.

You’re delusional.

I offered no data regarding 260, nor any comparison. I corrected your incorrect statement that bullets longer or higher BC than the 142 SMK can’t be used in 6.5 creed. They can, and regularly are.

I also cited the ability of competitive shooters to load to any pressure standard they want - directly offering that both can be loaded to the same playing field, yet shooters remain to choose the 6.5 over the 260 - to which, you didn’t have an answer.

What it seems you fail to understand: raw speed is not the only measure for success. Nobody cares if the 260rem has larger case capacity and can be pushed faster than the 6.5 creed. I’ve made the same statement multiple times - same rifle, same boltface, same pressure tolerance, and “there’s no replacement for displacement. I’ve also said the 260rem will, indeed, outrun the 6.5creed with the same bullet.

But you refuse to accept that MV isn’t the only metric for “better.” The .260 and 243 have been found lacking in many ways for long range shooting, and it’s unfortunate that you insist on standing on a soapbox to announce your ignorance to them. Many of the same reasons PO Ackley blew them to 260 AI and 243 AI, and same reason guys were pushing shoulders back into 6SLR’s, or blowing 243’s out to 6 Comp Matches.

Shooters have been asking the 260 and 243win to be “better” for decades before the 6.5 creed or 6 creed ever hit the market.
 
I no longer have a copy of QL, so may i ask how much projected difference 1 gr of water capacity is likely to make in peek velocity when the same bullets are loaded to the same 2.9" in both cases, using QLs recommended powders for both, and the same pressures?
 
@BigBore45 - here’s my challenge to you to redeem yourself and your argument in any way:

Given: we have established 260 has larger case capacity and can achieve greater muzzle velocities with the same bullets, when using a custom twist barrel and throat.

Given: We’ve established handloaders are not bound by any pressure limitations, such both cartridges can be loaded to equivalent pressure at will.

The only question I have for you: Share ANY objective reason (other than muzzle velocity) in which the 260 is superior to the 6.5 for long range shooting?
 
@BigBore45 - here’s my challenge to you to redeem yourself and your argument in any way:

Given: we have established 260 has larger case capacity and can achieve greater muzzle velocities with the same bullets, when using a custom twist barrel and throat.

Given: We’ve established handloaders are not bound by any pressure limitations, such both cartridges can be loaded to equivalent pressure at will.

The only question I have for you: Share ANY objective reason (other than muzzle velocity) in which the 260 is superior to the 6.5 for long range shooting?


You know what.

Here. The only caveat in this article is when they compare loads the didn't bump the 260 to 65k psi.

But for those that dont want to read it the points.

Mostly identical

advantage velocity 260 rem. And at equal psi huge difference. In testing depending on bullet, powder elevation and COAL 200-300 fps with same projectiles

Cheaper to load 260 rem

Longer case life 260 rem

Better hunting cartridge 260 rem

I see no advantage to the 6.5cm except ( this is not a big one to me ) it may accommodate high b.c. bullets (long ogive radius) better. Although I've never heard or experienced any trouble with the 260 in this department. So it's a moot one to me.

Any factory gun put out in 260 now has had any rifle twist or short leade resolved. A bit late for market yes. But using that as a point against it differs from my claims above.

http://americanshootingjournal.com/260-remington-vs-6-5-creedmoor/amp/

Not in the article but in my experience. 260 inherently more accurate as bullets came out for long range. Also the shoulder angle and case length aid in minimizing throat erosion and bullet shear angular yaw are held to smaller margins compared to 6.5cm.
 
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Another interesting design happening along with another look at lefthand rifle twist now that shooting over a mile is becoming popular.

Maybe @Varminterror could lend some of his ballistic testing expertise to help in the continuing development....
 

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Cheaper to load 260 rem

False - same bullet, same brass cost, same primers, but less powder used in the 6.5 creed = lower cost in 6.5 creed. In this case, that larger capacity and faster speed is working against you.

Longer case life 260 rem

False - if loaded to the same pressure, as you keep preaching, case head expansion will be identical. However, even when NOT loaded to the same pressure, necks get thinner, faster in the tapered body, slope shouldered 260. Nobody ever talks about Improving a 6.5 creed to eliminate case stretch and reduce trimming. Frankly, most of my cases die to case head expansion, and considering 260rem, by design, runs large primers, while the 6.5 predominantly runs small primers, meaning a stronger case head, and less expansion per shot, such we get MORE loadings before the 6.5 stops holding onto primers.

Better hunting cartridge 260 rem

False/subjective bias -There’s no data to support the 260 is superior here, just your subjective bias. At huntable ranges, there’s no substantial difference between the two. Here are a few opposing angles for which the 6.5 is superior for hunting:

1) Hunters don't need to reload, so they use factory ammo. Factory ammo selection on local shelves is typically greater for 6.5 creedmoor than 260 in the modern era, such a 6.5 creed hunter has more options.

2) Hunters tend to use factory ammo, and heavier bullets penetrate better - there are more heavy bullet loads on the shelf for 6.5 creed than for 260 rem, so the 6.5 hunter has the advantage.

3) Hunters don't need custom rifles, such the factory 260 rifles on the market with short mag boxes can't utilize the heavier bullets which offer better penetration.

4) The 260 uses more powder than the 6.5 creed, so the reloading hunter has to spend more on ammo, just to hunt

Any factory gun put out in 260 now has had any rifle twist or short leade resolved.

The twists have been changed, but you're speculating at best here to say the leades have been modified away from SAAMI spec reamers. I know the freebore was no different in the last 260 I worked on, and it faced the same limitations for bullet weight the models before it had faced. Short mag boxes. Why? Because the mag boxes are as long as they can be, which is why the shoulder was moved back and the case shortened for the 6.5 and 6 creed. When I custom reamed my 260, 260AI, 243, and 243AI for long, high BC bullets, the results was a single shot, port fed rifle.

260 inherently more accurate as bullets came out for long range.

False - Please provide objective data to prove this advantage in"inherent accuracy," because every other cartridge designer has acknowledged the steep shoulder, short, fat powder column case design as superior to produce "inherent accuracy" than the older taper body, slope shoulder cases. My personal experience has been the same - in blowing out the shoulders and bodies of 260's, my life became easier at the development bench. Same with 243win --> 243AI --> 6 creed, the more I blew out the body and shoulder, following the footsteps of experienced cartridge developers like Ackley, the easier it was to coax the round to produce on target at long range.

Also the shoulder angle and case length aid in minimizing throat erosion and bullet shear angular yaw are held to smaller margins compared to 6.5cm.

Minimizing throat erosion = False - Half of the advantage PO Ackley proved with his case designs was the advantage of steeper shoulder angle in improving throat life. Your statement is either a lie, or a lack of knowledge.

"Shear angular yaw...." = False at best. This is jargon-gibberish which might fool some, but certainly doesn't me. Throat dimensions are what they are, and are not inherent to any case design. I'd argue, dimensionally, it's easy to prove a taper case with a steep shoulder is far more sensitive to inherent yaw due to the way the cases can lay in the chambers. The 6.5 Creed has a longer case neck, for greater/longer bullet support during primary ignition, .285" vs. .259", so again, demonstrably, there's LESS opportunity for induced yaw as bullets enter the leade in the 6.5 creed.

So a pack of lies and misinformation... Any real objective data to support superiority? Or are lies and muzzle velocity all you are bringing to the table?
 
False - same bullet, same brass cost, same primers, but less powder used in the 6.5 creed = lower cost in 6.5 creed. In this case, that larger capacity and faster speed is working against you.



False - if loaded to the same pressure, as you keep preaching, case head expansion will be identical. However, even when NOT loaded to the same pressure, necks get thinner, faster in the tapered body, slope shouldered 260. Nobody ever talks about Improving a 6.5 creed to eliminate case stretch and reduce trimming. Frankly, most of my cases die to case head expansion, and considering 260rem, by design, runs large primers, while the 6.5 predominantly runs small primers, meaning a stronger case head, and less expansion per shot, such we get MORE loadings before the 6.5 stops holding onto primers.



False/subjective bias -There’s no data to support the 260 is superior here, just your subjective bias. At huntable ranges, there’s no substantial difference between the two. Here are a few opposing angles for which the 6.5 is superior for hunting:

1) Hunters don't need to reload, so they use factory ammo. Factory ammo selection on local shelves is typically greater for 6.5 creedmoor than 260 in the modern era, such a 6.5 creed hunter has more options.

2) Hunters tend to use factory ammo, and heavier bullets penetrate better - there are more heavy bullet loads on the shelf for 6.5 creed than for 260 rem, so the 6.5 hunter has the advantage.

3) Hunters don't need custom rifles, such the factory 260 rifles on the market with short mag boxes can't utilize the heavier bullets which offer better penetration.

4) The 260 uses more powder than the 6.5 creed, so the reloading hunter has to spend more on ammo, just to hunt



The twists have been changed, but you're speculating at best here to say the leades have been modified away from SAAMI spec reamers. I know the freebore was no different in the last 260 I worked on, and it faced the same limitations for bullet weight the models before it had faced. Short mag boxes. Why? Because the mag boxes are as long as they can be, which is why the shoulder was moved back and the case shortened for the 6.5 and 6 creed. When I custom reamed my 260, 260AI, 243, and 243AI for long, high BC bullets, the results was a single shot, port fed rifle.



False - Please provide objective data to prove this advantage in"inherent accuracy," because every other cartridge designer has acknowledged the steep shoulder, short, fat powder column case design as superior to produce "inherent accuracy" than the older taper body, slope shoulder cases. My personal experience has been the same - in blowing out the shoulders and bodies of 260's, my life became easier at the development bench. Same with 243win --> 243AI --> 6 creed, the more I blew out the body and shoulder, following the footsteps of experienced cartridge developers like Ackley, the easier it was to coax the round to produce on target at long range.



Minimizing throat erosion = False - Half of the advantage PO Ackley proved with his case designs was the advantage of steeper shoulder angle in improving throat life. Your statement is either a lie, or a lack of knowledge.

"Shear angular yaw...." = False at best. This is jargon-gibberish which might fool some, but certainly doesn't me. Throat dimensions are what they are, and are not inherent to any case design. I'd argue, dimensionally, it's easy to prove a taper case with a steep shoulder is far more sensitive to inherent yaw due to the way the cases can lay in the chambers. The 6.5 Creed has a longer case neck, for greater/longer bullet support during primary ignition, .285" vs. .259", so again, demonstrably, there's LESS opportunity for induced yaw as bullets enter the leade in the 6.5 creed.

So a pack of lies and misinformation... Any real objective data to support superiority? Or are lies and muzzle velocity all you are bringing to the table?
Didn't read the article....

So here is the deal, you use loading against me. Yet 308 or 243 brass is super cheap and can be used for 260 so maybe use it in my favor.... hints cheaper brass.

If you read the article 260 stamped brass tends to last longer, it's just a fact.... now I know you have limited 260 experience. You forgot primer pocket/web area. Also shoulder angle that work hardened.

Gibberish? Again. You say it doesn't support long range shooting an more hunting designed but you use any advantage that has against it?

Just too keep count. That is 2 articles. Several cases of non-matching load data proving miss information from manufacturers. Quick load simulations and experience from me. Wonder what kind of jargon-gibberish your gonna come up with after my video evidence?
 
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You forgot primer pocket/web area.

Nah, really, I didn’t - I specifically called out the STRONGER AND THICKER case heads of 6.5 creedmoor brass. Reading is tough though, so I’ll quote myself below, same as it is typed above, and same as it is quoted in your own post.

Frankly, most of my cases die to case head expansion, and considering 260rem, by design, runs large primers, while the 6.5 predominantly runs small primers, meaning a stronger case head, and less expansion per shot, such we get MORE loadings before the 6.5 stops holding onto primers.

It’s a fact which doesn’t escape me for loading 260 Rem either - as I have stated on this forum many times, I use Lapua Palma brass for my 260 and 243win loading, to gain access to stronger case heads. Been doing so for at least 20 years for all of my 308win based rounds.
 
You say it doesn't support long range shooting an more hunting designed but you use any advantage that has against it?

I never said the 260 was more hunting designed. Ever. I never said it was superior for hunting - in fact provided argument against that sentiment above.

Your further gibberish here about hunting or long range shooting as defense of your gibberish about is not supporting your claims of shoulder angle and case length reducing bullet yaw... I offered data which refuted your claim of case length advantage, and referenced the work of a well known case designer which refuted your claim of shoulder angle as an advantage. So your only move is to deflect into BS about .357mag load data, and try to put words into my mouth about hunting vs. long range shooting...

You’re lost, man, absolutely lost.
 
Well this one is about to be locked

It’s been nothing but one dude trying to prove to everyone why his favorite round is better than a new popular round anyways. Which I don’t understand the reasoning for. If the 260 was such a hidden gem of perfection, I’d be glad every hairy leg at the range didn’t have one. It’s nothing more than a search for personal validation.
 
For the peanut gallery - the article, not any personal experience, states:

ridiculous article with no data or objective support said:
“Another thing to note is that the 6.5 Creedmoor has a “softer” brass which means that it doesn’t last as long or have as high of performance.”

I would welcome @BigBore45 to provide evidence to support this claim in the article. I think thousands of shooters around the world would be interested to hear, straight from the mouth of Hornady, Starline, Peterson, or Lapua that they were using a softer alloy, intentionally, for their 6.5 creed brass than that which they use for 260 brass.

Now, what I expect the inexperienced author of that article, and his inexperienced patron here, are confusing, is a reality which existed for about three years after the launch of the 6.5 Creedmoor. Hornady brass, as a whole, has a reputation for soft brass and short life because of it. Hornady was the only manufacturer making 6.5 creed brass in the early days - such, for a while, it was very true, you could buy a 6.5 creed and be stuck with soft Hornady brass, or buy a 6.5x47L or 260 rem and get twice the life from cases. Fortunately, that hasn’t been true for several years, with all major manufacturers picking up the 6.5 creed, and drawing it out of the same alloy as any of their other cartridges.
 
Well this one is about to be locked

It was doomed to be locked from the jump. The only good news, at least he had the courtesy to create this thread, instead of continuing the nonsense and causing lockdown for other threads of actual value.

This has gone farther than it should have been allowed - I expect the mods might have enacted a trick I used to use when I moonlit as a bouncer in engineering school: if a fool’s acting a fool, and calls someone outside, let ‘em go.

There’s been no real provenance provided here by @BigBore45. I’ve asked simple questions, which he’s brought back no objective data. I’ve refuted his claims with data and with referenced cartridge design truths we’ve seen for decades. He’s falsely building “experience” by referencing blog articles without their own objective data, and stating others should do research, and deflecting with random BS about SAAMI specs for a revolver round, and has called out ammunition, powder, and bullet manufacturers, as well as SAAMI as corrupt agencies in collusion to lie about pressure standards and performance data. He’s yet to have provided any objective support for his claims, or objective retorts to my counters.

It reminds me of a certain type - that wormy kid who just got whooped behind the bar, and keeps screaming through his own bloody teeth, to nobody listening, about how much ass he just kicked...
 
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