28 gauge limitations?

[tactikel]

Lots of wisdom up there! Be sure to check if the 28 you are considering is built on a true 28 gauge receiver (many guns simply are a 20 ga receiver with 28 ga barrels mounted). The 20 ga has tons of more ammo choices, and can be handloaded to 28 ga specs. Recoil can be dealt with by: proper fit, high quality recoil pad, good shooting vest/coat, weight and action of gun. A gas operated 20 with light loads and a good recoil pad will kick less than a 28 SS with field loads.
The 28 is a sweet gun for quail, woodcock, grouse, and gun club pheasants. A 20 or 12 ga is needed for wild pheasants and up (turkey, rabbits, squirrles, and all waterfowl).
Caution! the 28 is addictive, and I predict you will own at least 3 shotguns within a couple of years

 

[jbkebert]

The wingmaster version of the 28 gauge is built on a small frame similar to that of a .410. Yes some of them are just 20 ga receivers with a smaller barrel on other makes.

 

[PJR]

The wingmaster version of the 28 gauge is built on a small frame similar to that of a .410.

Remington makes two actions sizes for the 870. One for 12, 16 gauge and at one time the 20 gauge. The smaller action is for the for the 20, 28 and .410.

Even though the action size is the same for the 20 through .410 the difference in handling between a 20 and 28 gauge Wingmaster is quite noticeable due to the shorter and lighter barrel. My small frame 20 gauge Wingmaster is one of my favourite guns but the 28 gauge I owned was a gun that I could never shoot well.

Any thoughts on the Beretta auto's vs. the 1100? From a maintenance/reliability standpoint?

I own both models. The Beretta is superior in reliabililty and durability. It is however a little more complicated to take down but needs to be taken down far less to keep it running.

I use a 28 gauge Remington 1100 to introduce new shooters to the sport. It's used a lot less than my regular guns including the 391 but I've had to replace the action bars, link and extractor. The only part I've replaced on the Beretta is a cocking handle.

Maybe one day Beretta will get off the dime and make the 391 in 28 gauge. I'll be first in line.

 

[Guvnor]

The Beretta is starting to sound like the better choice to me. I like the 1100, but I dont want to spend a thousand bucks on a gun that will need constant maintenance and have to worry about parts breaking.

I guess it comes down to the Beretta 3901 in 20 gauge or the 870 Wingmaster in 28 gauge. Both around $800. I assume recoil around the same general ballpark?

Thanks again to everyone in this thread. Its been a big help.

 

[Virginian]

I have had eight 1100s and/or 11-87s since 1963, and I have experienced one (1) small broken part. Those 1960 materials are every bit as good as anything you are likely to get today; according to ASTM they are the same. There are some sharp edges inside the receiver. Did you ride the short bus, and do they have to keep reminding you not to put your hand on the hot stove burner? If not, who cares?
An 1100 is not I-talian, which to me, in addition to the fact that they fit better, is a huge plus. The "filthy, dirty", gas action has never quit on me once, is not all that dirty - and I used to shoot lots of Blue Dot - and takes all of 5 minutes to clean. The Beretta will probably run longer because it was designed to, but it will also need cleaning, and when it does it is a bigger pain.
If the Beretta fits you a lot better, get it, but don't believe a lot of BS that the Remington is an inferior gun. You will look far and wide before you find anything that shoots softer.
Do you hear about more issues with 1100s? Absolutely; there's millions more out there, and if you do nothing but troll these boards you have to know there is a goodly percentage of folks out there who could screw up an anvil - without tools.

 

[DaleCooper51]

I don't have nearly the experience that some do with the 1100, but I've had a couple and probably put about 10k rounds through them. One was an old standard 20 and the other was a lt-20. I got them both used and was in each one under $300. They were both great guns, the cleaning wasn't all that bad. I replaced the O ring when I got them and never had any problems witht the guns.

The only thing that I didn't really like is the gas bleed off. It was out the top and I would catch a face of the gasses on occasion. It doesn't bother most people, but I didn't like it.

I have no experience with the Beretta guns. I don't think you would go wrong with either the Beretta or Remington semi autos. If I found a nice used one at the right price, I would pick one up again.

 

[ArmedBear]

there is a goodly percentage of folks out there who could screw up an anvil - without tools.

LOL

Next time you see an anvil made of stamped steel parts with sharp edges on them, some held in place by having sections of other steel parts smashed over them, you let me know.

Remingtons are like laws and sausages. Joke among long-time shotgunners: "hand me that Remington Loading Tool" means "pass me a hammer."

That doesn't mean they don't work. Mine does, as long as it's not too dirty.

It just means that the 1100 is another case of Remington's resting on its laurels and charging 2009 prices for 1959 industrial engineering. If you want one, buy an old one for a few hundred bucks. It's every bit as good as a new one, maybe better.

A new one for the current prices is nothing short of laughable IMO, and as I said, I own one.

Furthermore, the 3901 isn't I-talian. It's American. It's just a much newer design, that takes advantage of the slight improvements in engineering and manufacturing that have taken place since my 75-year-old Dad was a kid.

Both are mass-produced guns. We're not looking at "older guns are better because they were hand-machined." The 1100 never was. It was pumped out by machines, but in an era when those machines were pretty crude. It's to Remington's credit that the things do work so well. The world has moved on, though.

Remington's great success, with the 870 and 1100 especially, was that they made guns that were durable, well-balanced, even pretty, and relatively cheap. The Wingmaster smoked the Model 12 in the marketplace because the Model 12 was twice as expensive, not because the Model 12 wasn't a really nice gun.

The main problem, as I see it, is that Remington no longer offers that kind of price advantage over other good guns -- and they haven't exploited modern industrial technology as others have, to improve quality and features at a better price.

 

[joedapro]

i recommend loading down a 12 gauge to 3/4 oz load over buying a 28 gauge. a mec press will cost you $150 new and used ones for less than 1/2 that. shells or components are much cheaper and if you want you can shoot full power factory 12 gauge shells. also the guns and components are cheaper than 28 gauge.

 

[MCgunner]

i recommend loading down a 12 gauge to 3/4 oz load over buying a 28 gauge. a mec press will cost you $150 new and used ones for less than 1/2 that. shells or components are much cheaper and if you want you can shoot full power factory 12 gauge shells. also the guns and components are cheaper than 28 gauge.

And then, you have a big, porky shotgun with a light charge of shot. Seems to me the 20 gauge is the best option for a light handling gun in a smaller than 12 gauge receiver.

My little Spartan SxS with 20" barrels and interchangeable choke tubes, is a very fast handling shotgun. I will match most 28s with it, frankly, and yet it can shoot 3" on bigger birds. If you want lighter charges, there's no need to reload to get them in 20 gauge.

I mean, I have 3 12s, but they're not substitutes for the 20 when it comes to a fast pointing and handling light weight shotgun. They all get the job done, though. It's just all in what ya want. If most of your game and hunting is upland, though, the little 20 might be a better choice than a 12 IMHO. A 3" 20 will reach out to the toughest of wild pheasants. I don't really think they're any tougher to bring down than teal, and it's deadly on teal even with the limitations of steel shot!

I used to hunt big ducks with a 20 gauge 870 wingmaster using 2 3/4" high brass loads in Number 5 shot and it patterned well and really nailed the birds. This was before steel shot was mandated.

 

[Guvnor]

Well to complicate things even more...

Ive discovered another 28 gauge auto in the same price range...the Franchi 48 AL.

Its listed at a very light 5.4 pounds, and works on something called a long-recoil action which I haven't seen before. Does this type of action have the same recoil reducing properties as a gas operated gun?

 

[Two Cold Soakers]

My sxs 12 actually pulls itself away from my shoulder with 3/4 oz over 16 gr Red Dot.
The few times I've shot a round with it, I never went less than 22/25.
Don't try that in an 1100.

 

[PJR]

Does this type of action have the same recoil reducing properties as a gas operated gun?

No. A recoil action will have more felt recoil. Also the Franchi is very light compared to the Remington 1100 and will hit harder.

 

[ArmedBear]

The Franchi 48AL is arguably the best all-day field gun that doesn't have two barrels.

I've been scouring the used racks for a good deal on a 20 Gauge 48AL. It's for a specialized purpose: hunting quail and grouse on foot in mountainous terrain. Wonderful little gun (I also like the older ones with PoW grips).

However, as others have said, it's probably not what you have said you're looking for.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Guys, I'm very surprised that no one has yet mentioned the alleged superior shot load "shape" of the 28 gauge over the 20 gauge. In my understanding, that would be the MAIN reason to choose it, with the lighter scaled guns coming in 2nd place.

Supposedly, the 12 and 20 guage patterns are not as "deep" - they're wide, but not as deep, like flying discs, so the game can "slip by" the pattern easier in front or in back of it, if your lead is too much or too little; whereas in my understanding, the 28 ga has more of a squarish, or "ball" shaped pattern in the air, which is both wide and deep, giving the game little chance of squeaking through if your timing/lead amount is a little off.

This alleged advantage is the main reason *I* bought one for upland birds, over a 20 gauge or light-loaded 12 ga. Second reason being a 5.4 lb lively light gun. Distant third being recoil. Recoil for all intents and purposes will be the same between a 3/4 oz 28 ga and 3/4 oz 20 ga, or 7/8 oz 28 ga and 7/8 oz 20 ga.

Is this not true? I haven't shot my 28 yet.

Oh, and thanks a heck of a lot guys - now I want a Franchi 48 AL.

 

[oneounceload]

Recoil for all intents and purposes will be the same between a 3/4 oz 28 ga and 3/4 oz 20 ga, or 7/8 oz 28 ga and 7/8 oz 20 ga.

Is this not true? I haven't shot my 28 yet.

If all things are the same, yes that would be true. That being said, I have found the weight of the guns is generally different. If a 28 is built on a 20 frame, it is usually a little havier due to trying to make the barrels fit the 20 gauge action. If it is built on a true 28 frame, then it tends to be somewhat lighter. There are some 28 doubles, built on 28 frames that can be real close to a 20 however - usually due to wood density.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Is this not true? I haven't shot my 28 yet.

I meant, is the part about the shot shape true? But thanks for the clarification.

Hey - OUCH!!! The 28 ga Franchi 48 would seem to run roughly $300 MORE than the 20 ga model 48!

 

[ArmedBear]

Supposedly, the 12 and 20 guage patterns are not as "deep" - they're wide, but not as deep, like flying discs, so the game can "slip by" the pattern easier in front or in back of it, if your lead is too much or too little; whereas in my understanding, the 28 ga has more of a squarish, or "ball" shaped pattern in the air, which is both wide and deep, giving the game little chance of squeaking through if your timing/lead amount is a little off.

I don't think it works that way. It's probably the other way around: if your lead is perfect, a long shot string will just mean that fewer pellets hit your target. Note also that Sporting Clays shotguns these days tend to be overbore. If your hypothesis were true, they'd be made underbore.

There is a "square load" for every gauge. This is a load where the shot column in the shell is about as wide as it is tall. That's considered to be the ideal load by many, with good reason.

There's no free lunch; if you spread the pattern width (open choke) or length (smaller gauge for a given amount of shot) you get less pattern density, in 3 dimensions.

So, if you want to shoot an ounce, you're better off doing it in a 12 Gauge, or a 20, than a 28.

Hollinger mentions an English shotgun writer who took chronograph readings of heavy field loads and light field loads. “At 30 yards, the shot string from the heavy loads was 25-30 feet long!” he exclaims. “There’s a lot of room for a pheasant to fly through a 30-foot shot string and only take a couple of pellets.”

Interesting article: http://www.sidebysideshotgun.com/articles/balance_loads_article.html

 

[Virginian]

The "square charge" is more efficient. But 60% of 1 ounce is still more pellets on target than 75% of 3/4 ounce. This mentality started with the Brits and their love of light field 12 gauge side by sides with light charges. A good Brit 12 is a joy to shoot, but the shape of the shot charge has squat to do with much.
1 28 cannot equal a 20 at the upper end of both gauges spectrum, and a 20 cannot equal a 12, but if you are willing to work within the optimum envelope of the gauge you are shooting it can be effective, and much less wearing to shoot than 3" 1-7/8 ounce 12 gauge loads.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

There is a "square load" for every gauge. This is a load where the shot column in the shell is about as wide as it is tall. That's considered to be the ideal load by many, with good reason.

OK, right, I can see that, but there IS indeed supposed to be SOME advantage in this general area of the 28 gauge. Perhaps it is the case that it's EASIER to find a "box" or "ball" load (preferred for obvious reasons as you said - no matter which way the game jukes & jives within the 6 different choices - 3 dimensions x 2 directions in each dimension - no matter what it's toast with a pretty decent shot) with 28 ga - i.e. perhaps more standard loads are squarish than other gauges, as opposed to "too deep / not wide & tall enough" or "too wide & tall / not deep enough". Not as much patterning / practice time needed to find the sweet spot load, perhaps?

I don't know what it is, but there's supposed to be *something*. So is this something just so much bunk / wive's tale, or is there indeed something special about 28 gauge's patterns? If there's not, then there's very VERY little reason to choose a 28 ga over a 20 ga (perhaps none).

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Here we go:

http://www.billhanusbirdguns.com/archive04.html

The many virtues of today's 28 gauge shell -- hard (high antmony content) shot found in skeet target loads, super-efficient wads with shorter shot stings in open-choked guns have made for legendary performance

And more reading:

http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTech/TechnoidArchive/5-Apr-05.html


What about a gas-operated semi-auto single barrel 5.0 lb 28 gauge with a 20" bbl, as the ultimate soft-recoiling, easy-carrying, lightning-quick swinging, 3-shot capacity, quail, dove, woodcock, & squirrel gun?

 

[ArmedBear]

I'd rather have 2 chokes than 3 shots.

The only reason I am interested in a semi is that I've been hunting in a state with no plug requirement for resident upland birds.

 

[ArmedBear]

there's very VERY little reason to choose a 28 ga over a 20 ga (perhaps none).

Unless you think that a 20 Gauge makes a better steel shot duck gun than a 12, the laws of physics would have to be suspended for 28 Gauge to be a better pheasant bore than 20 (if "pheasant" means #5 or #4 lead shot).

The 28 Gauge is "magical" because it can make for a light, quick, really neat-feeling gun, with minimal recoil, that works "better than people expect." The reason they don't expect it to work is that they don't "get" that #8 shot is #8 shot, no matter what gun it's in. If you hit a dove with a few pellets of #8, it'll go down. 12 Gauge doesn't necessarily mean "more effective" and a scaled 28 is easier to hit small, fast, jinking birds with, than the lunker 12 Gauges I often see people use for doves.

However, in a shotgun with a 20 Gauge frame, except for recoil, there's no reason I can see to get 28 Gauge barrels apart from clay games requiring 28.

That's why I have a 20, and the guy I know with the same gun and two barrel sets puts the 20s on for everything but 28-specific range use.

Now, there are some guns that are so different in 28, it makes a huge difference. The Red Label straight grip 28 is about the only Red Label that really turns me on. It's scaled, and it feels wonderful (the 20 feels like a 12). But that's the gun, not the bore. Of course, I think that one should BUY the gun, not the bore, most of the time. So it can be a complex issue...

 

[JohnBT]

"28 gauge limitations?"

Everybody wants to shoot it, even though it's not a real-man-sized 12 gauge and they think you're nothing but a show-off for even owning such a little pop gun. And it's not like they just happen to have some 28 ga. shells in their bag. Oh well, it's nice to be popular.

Guerini Woodlander - 6#2oz. with 28 inch barrels.



Next to a 12 ga. 870 Express, also with a 28 inch barrel.



John

Disclaimer: I didn't buy it, my father did. On one of our regular gun shopping trips I showed him all the 28 ga. guns they had from all the major makers, including Franchi. He sort of liked them, but he always shot a 20 ga. Model 12. That trip was on a Saturday and on Monday he went back and bought it. <insert pic of me on the phone in shock> He was 83 then and gave it to me for my birthday 6 months later after we'd broken it in some. How big a shock was it? That was a $2400 gun 4 years ago. Now they list for $2895.

 

[ArmedBear]

A Guerini is a good reason to get a 28. It's different from their 20, which is different from their 12.

Of course, that's a good reason to collect them all...

 

[JohnBT]

"...collect them all..."

You know, that could be the answer. I'd like a target model with longer barrels and a pad, but I'm torn between another 28 and a 12 ga. Summit Limited, or maybe a 20. Or a 28/20 combo. Or maybe one of the fancier ones.

Collect them all - I like the sound of that. I'm not getting any younger and time's a wasting.

John