At last check about 15 years ago .284 was the king in ballistic coefficient for the best bullets. I think that is the selling point of the 280. Same parent case as the '06 your grandpa shot, but with sleeker, faster bullets that might not kick so hard.
280 fans
- Thread starter VoodooMountain
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1stmarine
Member
Can we really trust the usual suspects that make commercial chambers to make it the best it can be?
The latest chambers might be a different story I am not sure but we need to consider this:
- Rate of twist and length needed.
- Quality of the chamber and bore/barrel itself with tight tolerances.
- Freebore for the best bullets available.
These things apply to any other calibers including the most popular ones right now.
So I suggest start with the bullets you want to shoot and work backwards form there otherwise
you might find yourself limited by the choices of the rifle manufacturer.
I am not saying the commercial chambers will not work for most people but we also know they can be restrictive and not the most accurate anyway.
Look what they are doing to the 7mm/08. IT is being marketed as a light deer round in stupid light rifles when in fact is an amazing long range round coupled with a precision heavy rifle.
The latest chambers might be a different story I am not sure but we need to consider this:
- Rate of twist and length needed.
- Quality of the chamber and bore/barrel itself with tight tolerances.
- Freebore for the best bullets available.
These things apply to any other calibers including the most popular ones right now.
So I suggest start with the bullets you want to shoot and work backwards form there otherwise
you might find yourself limited by the choices of the rifle manufacturer.
I am not saying the commercial chambers will not work for most people but we also know they can be restrictive and not the most accurate anyway.
Look what they are doing to the 7mm/08. IT is being marketed as a light deer round in stupid light rifles when in fact is an amazing long range round coupled with a precision heavy rifle.
Lloyd Smale
Member
I love the 280. I have a win featherweight and a rem mountain rifle chambered in it. It along with the 06 are my favorite guns
I can think of a good argument in favor of the Ruger 77 in .280 and that is the price tag on it. I own a .25-06 and .308 but have always wanted a .270. Never had the want for a .280 but for the price I'd go with it. The .308 was one of the cartridges I didn't really want but after owning it I have a high regard for it. I suspect the same thing would happen with the .280.
Dog Soldier
member
Over the years I have noticed a phenomenon. I do not wish to offend, but many choose the "In Calibers". What ever is new and popular is in. I notice so many of the new short high pressure rounds gathering dust at our Outfitter's supply.
During my days as a young Rocky Mtn. guide I formed some opinions. Now those opinions may be questionable? But, clients with worn old rifles chambered in a cartridge with a proven record were just better hunters.
During my days as a young Rocky Mtn. guide I formed some opinions. Now those opinions may be questionable? But, clients with worn old rifles chambered in a cartridge with a proven record were just better hunters.
Jim Watson
Member
A friend has a Ruger 77 .280 but he got it by rebarreling a Way Kewl 7x57 that was not very accurate.
He reports that, contrary to the worries of some of his buds, it will NOT bounce off the hide of an elk.
Col Townsend Whelen concluded that there wasn't much reason to trade your .270 or .30-06 for a .280, but if you were buying new, it would be "Just a Little Bit Better". At least that was what he titled the article.
He reports that, contrary to the worries of some of his buds, it will NOT bounce off the hide of an elk.
Col Townsend Whelen concluded that there wasn't much reason to trade your .270 or .30-06 for a .280, but if you were buying new, it would be "Just a Little Bit Better". At least that was what he titled the article.
Dog Soldier
member
"Townie" Whelen born in 1877 lived in another time. When Spain introduced the 7X57 in 1898 Whelen was an adult. The bullets in .284 for hunting and targets would not be developed until after his demise in 1961. The .277 bullets back in the day had reliable expansion problems due to jacket thickness. These issues were acceptable 70 years ago. Things have changed a lot since the 1800s.
I have to agree. Many choose the "In Calibers" and look down their nose at the older cartridges. Shame because there are a lot of great cartridges out there. The .280 is one that seems to get passed by, why I don't know.Over the years I have noticed a phenomenon. I do not wish to offend, but many choose the "In Calibers". What ever is new and popular is in. I notice so many of the new short high pressure rounds gathering dust at our Outfitter's supply.
During my days as a young Rocky Mtn. guide I formed some opinions. Now those opinions may be questionable? But, clients with worn old rifles chambered in a cartridge with a proven record were just better hunters.
Factory chambers aren't all that bad most times, a reloader can make the most of them. I used to have a M700 Mountain in .280. I got it to shoot around a half inch. I picked up a Tikka that shoots a bit less than half inch (when I have good days). I still have that Tikka.
I have a M70, recently re barreled with an 1:8 twist. It's getting to be cold enough for me to seriously start load development for it. All I've done so far is some barrel break in and scope zeroing.
Part of the issue with the .280, is that factory ammo is a bit pricey; and, it is not always (most always) what the caliber wants to shoot well.
1stmarine
Member
Hi @DRYHUMOR ..
Of course one can get good chambers and great rifles out of the box.
But the thing is the caliber and assortment of offerings, along with the ammo as you pointed out, is not providing the best choices in order to do the things
this caliber can do. Same thing with the 7mm-08 that is an amazing long range round too. There should be a SPS tactial and Savage LRP with long heavy barrels in these
casings too and then the ammo to go with them.
I suspect perhaps they have other things that are worse that need more promotion in order to survive and leave these jewels uncut and unattended.
Marketing has a huge impact in the success of a caliber, even bad ones.
But at the same time this has been a way to provide opportunities for smaller leaner and smarter businesses to cash in where the big manufactures fail to follow though.
Of course one can get good chambers and great rifles out of the box.
But the thing is the caliber and assortment of offerings, along with the ammo as you pointed out, is not providing the best choices in order to do the things
this caliber can do. Same thing with the 7mm-08 that is an amazing long range round too. There should be a SPS tactial and Savage LRP with long heavy barrels in these
casings too and then the ammo to go with them.
I suspect perhaps they have other things that are worse that need more promotion in order to survive and leave these jewels uncut and unattended.
Marketing has a huge impact in the success of a caliber, even bad ones.
But at the same time this has been a way to provide opportunities for smaller leaner and smarter businesses to cash in where the big manufactures fail to follow though.
1stmarine,
Yep. They aren't the flavor of the month, suffer from poor marketing, don't add much to the bottom line. It falls to the guy that likes the caliber to help it survive. I'd say, even if folks who didn't reload for the round bought a few new cases from time to time, the case mfrs would continue to offers at least that/those.
Out of curiosity, I just looked on GB for .280s. Many AI versions, many with higher prices, and a couple of sleepers in the bunch. If I wasn't rifle poor, I'd have bought one of them outright....
Yep. They aren't the flavor of the month, suffer from poor marketing, don't add much to the bottom line. It falls to the guy that likes the caliber to help it survive. I'd say, even if folks who didn't reload for the round bought a few new cases from time to time, the case mfrs would continue to offers at least that/those.
Out of curiosity, I just looked on GB for .280s. Many AI versions, many with higher prices, and a couple of sleepers in the bunch. If I wasn't rifle poor, I'd have bought one of them outright....
Jim Watson
Member
There was a time when .280 Rem was a popular choice in custom Mauser sporters.
It takes a standard (8mm etc) bolt face and it doesn't require much if any magazine work. This left the custom gunsmith more of his time and your money to make it pretty versus conversion to 7mm Magnum.
Then there was the frequent gunzine assertion that the .280 would "do anything the Magnum would with bullets 154 gr or less." Not TOO badly overloaded, of course.
It takes a standard (8mm etc) bolt face and it doesn't require much if any magazine work. This left the custom gunsmith more of his time and your money to make it pretty versus conversion to 7mm Magnum.
Then there was the frequent gunzine assertion that the .280 would "do anything the Magnum would with bullets 154 gr or less." Not TOO badly overloaded, of course.
Dog Soldier
member
Jim, I do recall the .280 over loading issue. But I also recall the inflated ballistics that Remington published back in the day. The Old 700 7MM Mag. original twist rates was fast. The original load was the 175 grs. bullet for long range elk.
Dog Soldier
member
eastbank, Spain introduced America to the smokeless FMJ round in 1898. That was during the very short Spanish American War. Our Military went home dumped their old BP Spfld Trap Doors. They adopted the Spfld Krag Mdl. of 1898. The Krag was enlisted from 1898-1903.
280 seems to make a resurgence once every 20-25 years or so. I remember a late 90's resurgence of the round and writers were writing that it was bound to take off this time. A local dentist bought one and shot it quite a bit. Seems like folks at that time were really liking the 7mm bullets. 280 is a good round, no reason it should ever go away totally.
DDDWho
Member
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My 1st deer hunts was with my Dad. In those days he usually barrowed a rifle until he finally bought an Argentine Mauser 7.65X53 from a guy in a bar. I don't know what he paid for it but he complained that the ammo cost as much as the rifle.
Although not as bad I see a similar situation with the .280. While .270 and 06 ammo is about $17 for 20 rounds the .280 is over $30 in stores where I've checked.
In the small convenience store down the road they have mostly 30-30 and some .243, .270 and 06. I'd have to drive 50 miles to Academy to find .280 ammo.
This is all hypothetical because I have a lot of .280 rounds in my safe. I'm just throwing it out for the sake of this thread.
Although not as bad I see a similar situation with the .280. While .270 and 06 ammo is about $17 for 20 rounds the .280 is over $30 in stores where I've checked.
In the small convenience store down the road they have mostly 30-30 and some .243, .270 and 06. I'd have to drive 50 miles to Academy to find .280 ammo.
This is all hypothetical because I have a lot of .280 rounds in my safe. I'm just throwing it out for the sake of this thread.
Jim Watson
Member
I think the Krag was officially adopted in 1892 as soon as the US Army could take official notice of what the French and Germans were doing with smokeless. Small War Department budgets and slow procurement left a lot of our troops armed with Trapdoors and black powder even though there was a smokeless .45-70 developed as a transition round.
The big lesson of the Spanish American War was not smokeless powder, everybody was going that way anyhow, it was the rapid clip loading of the Mauser rifle (also Mannlicher, etc.)
Frankly, I think we would have been better off to just buy Mauser all the way and shoot .30 x 2 1/4" (7.62x57, get it?) from about 1889 until the assault rifle era.
The big lesson of the Spanish American War was not smokeless powder, everybody was going that way anyhow, it was the rapid clip loading of the Mauser rifle (also Mannlicher, etc.)
Frankly, I think we would have been better off to just buy Mauser all the way and shoot .30 x 2 1/4" (7.62x57, get it?) from about 1889 until the assault rifle era.
Because the more speed, the more splat. Speer makes 110gr TNT's and the mess they'd make of a rock chuck would be nothing short of spectacular. My personal experience with that bullet is when loading it to top end 280 velocities (was shooting them at 3,400 fps through my 280ai) it doesn't exit coyotes on broadside shots out to 200 yards. I never thought a 110gr bullet would come apart that fast but it anchors varmints in a hurry.
1stmarine
Member
I understand that. It can be used for varmint too. If the bullet stays together w/o jacket separation then send them a lighting bolt.
Dog Soldier
member
Black Powder smoke was an issue. When the Krag rifle was adapted the magazine was to be on cut off. The rifle was to be used as a single shot?
http://www.spanamwar.com/trapdoor.htm
http://www.spanamwar.com/trapdoor.htm
1stmarine
Member
Another 7mm cartrige that is often misunderstood and underestimated is the 284 Winchester.
It is a bit limited in mamy short action magazines but still impressive performance and it is perfect for the mid size Mauser 98 type action.
I never understood why the 280 and 284 didn't get more attention. Ballistically they are superior and more versatile than the 6.5, 270 and 30 cal in
comparable cases at any distance.
Again, with the exception of the heavy 180-200gr+ premium bullets for heavy and dangerous animals at moderate range where the 308w and 30/06 deliver more
momentum and frontal section in the shorter ranges.
But then for horse power you also have the amazing 358 Winchester and 35 whelen derived from those two as well.
It is a bit limited in mamy short action magazines but still impressive performance and it is perfect for the mid size Mauser 98 type action.
I never understood why the 280 and 284 didn't get more attention. Ballistically they are superior and more versatile than the 6.5, 270 and 30 cal in
comparable cases at any distance.
Again, with the exception of the heavy 180-200gr+ premium bullets for heavy and dangerous animals at moderate range where the 308w and 30/06 deliver more
momentum and frontal section in the shorter ranges.
But then for horse power you also have the amazing 358 Winchester and 35 whelen derived from those two as well.
Dog Soldier
member
I owned 2 rifles chambered for the .284 WCF. One was a very early Ruger #1 it had accuracy issues. But so did all calibers in the early #1 rifles. I also owned a Winchester Mdl 88 .284. That was an accurate dependable rifle. What ever happened to that Mdl. 88? I forgot?
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