2nd Amendment Form a Militia

[hso]

First off, you're going to get 0 traction on the idea of getting people to join some sort of unorganized (not state sanctioned) militia.

Second, there already are state militias in every state that are sanctioned by the state government. The bear the name ... Defense Force or ... Guard or something along those lines.

Third, "taking away our gun rights" is an oversimplification. Heller established that the 2nd is an individual right and not a state's right. Restrict, limit, that's possible, but it has already happened in states like NJ and California where they have AWBs in place and in states like NC, IL and others where you have to get permission to purchase firearms and/or ammunition. Where we are now is pushing state and local politicians to change their restrictive state laws and court challenges to force them to so that the limits of "reasonable restrictions" can be decided.

 

[paramedic70002]

Speaking of state militias, the VA Defense Force in particular...

I considered joining. I could work in their medical unit. I have always regretted not serving in some capacity.

They have recently been airing commercials in some sort of membership drive. They mention "less than lethal security" as one of their training areas.

Seems to me they don't trust their members with weapons.

 

[taprackbang]

..training is illegal in over half of the states...

First off, you're going to get 0 traction on the idea of getting people to join some sort of unorganized (not state sanctioned) militia.

The 2nd Amendment was written roughly 300 hundred years ago, but the State Guard was not formed until some 200 years later.
How was a 'well regulated militia' referring to something nearly 200 years later? Easy; the militia is the common people.

To the guy who started this thread:

The above quotes from the moderators should disturb you. The 2nd Amend NEVER referred to a State Guard, but merely to every able bodied man between ages of 18 - 60.
The moderators may be close to asserting that all Government is God, or the close equivalent. And I derive this from their quotes from above. Well, government is run by MAN and is fallible, as we've seen time and again. That is the reason for the 2nd.

 

[rbernie]

Taprackbang - I think that you misunderstand the mods' position. The point is not to argue the semantics of 'militia', because I think that most here would agree with the common understanding of 'all able-bodied men within a reasonable age range'.

The issue is whether there is legal standing to organize an informal militia in the absence of state or local authorization. The US Supreme Court says NYET to that notion, and that is the established legal precedent.

Regardless of how the mods or anyone else may feel on the topic, it is ill-advised to advocate behavior that may be illegal if conducted inproperly.

 

[taprackbang]

The issue is whether there is legal standing to organize an informal militia in the absence of state or local authorization. The US Supreme Court says NYET to that notion, and that is the established legal precedent.

The entire point was for our servant government to fear the people; not the other way around. When people fear the government, you have tyranny.

 

[MaterDei]

No offense toward those that might be members of state guards but if you want to be in the military then join the military. I witnessed some of these groups during my 11 year Army career and I can't tell you how silly they appeared. I could be totally off base but from a military perspective they were no more capable than the Salvation Army. On the other hand, if their mission is not military in nature then ditch the uniforms and ranks.

Just my uninformed $.02 worth.

 

[BullpupBen]

I personally think this is a great idea, but I believe that the best way to go about creating militias is to focus on local, small groups,(i.e. you and your shooting friends) instead of a massive MILITIA, that has a chain of command and actual funding,which is illegal, and sounds more like the National Guard.

I guess the easiest and by far safest way to go about creating a 'militia' would be as follows:
1. get together your good shooting buddies,
2. gather once a month or so at the local shooting range and safely practice small team drills and shooting drills,
3. come up with a simple set of standard operating procedures,
4. know the geography of the area you live in,
5. promote firearms safety and RKBA awareness in your community.

Just imagine what would happen if RKBA advocates did this in every county of every state, (where permitted by law.). We would end up with a "militia" composed of hundreds upon thousands of tiny, completely unconnected cells. This way, an official citizen military organization, with a chain of command and funding, would not and could not exist, so it wouldn't violate the Supreme Court's decision in Presser vs. Illinois.

I think that is the practical answer to this thread, not to mention the easiest and best for the RKBA in the long term.

To the ops original question:
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for few public officials." (George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426)

 

[marsofold]

Anyone joining any private militia group known to the government will have a big surprise waiting for them the next time they travel by plane. They will find that their name has been added to the list of people the government considers "suspicious", and that they are now delayed and practically strip-searched when they fly. And that it is IMPOSSIBLE to ever get their name removed from the list. All of the significant "militias" have been infiltrated by big brother Homeland Security.

 

[Jeff White]

the right to a militia was made to protect the people from a tyranicle government. the second amendment will never be needed til it is taken away thomas jefferson said that.....i think

The entire point was for our servant government to fear the people; not the other way around. When people fear the government, you have tyranny.

No, the militia was created to provide a force defend the country (including the government) without the dangers to freedom posed by a large standing army. The militia has always been part of the government, not a check on the government. The militia has always been a force that is called out by the chief executive of a duly elected government.

During Shay's Rebellion, the government called out the militia to put down the insurrection. The militia is a force that would be used to keep the duly elected government in power. It never has been a check of any kind on the government.

Where in the constitution does it say that Captain Billy Bob of the Macon County Dragoons is empowered to call up his unit and march on the county courthouse, the state capitol or Washington DC if he sees the duly elected government doing things he deems unconstitutional? It doesn't. The constitution only empowers the government to call up the Macon County Dragoons (or any other militia unit).

We the people are the final arbiters of what's constitutional and what's not. But, the founding fathers have given us a framework and procedures in which we do that.

The United States Supreme Court has stated that the court has the final say as to what's constitutional and what's not. See Marbury v. Madison. So how is it that we the people are the final arbiters of what's constitutional? Quite simple, we the people elect the president who appoints justices to the court, and we the people elect the senators who confirm those appointments and put the justices on the bench.

We the people elect the congressmen and senators who write the laws. We have all kinds of input. We just don't choose to use it. And then people get on gun forums and talk big about forming militias when things don't go their way. I suppose that it makes some people feel better to think that themselves with their trusty SKS and a few close friends are a check on the government, but in reality private militias are so insignificant the government seldom bothers to enforce the laws against them in the states that have them. Believe me, it's not because they fear they'll start the next revolution by enforcing those laws. It's because private militias aren't a threat to anyone but themselves. When they do get to the point they become a threat they are crushed and the survivors jailed. Google CSA, Covenant Sword and Arm of the Lord for an overview of what happens when the government has enough of a private military organization.

States with Both Anti-Militia and Anti-Paramilitary Training Laws (7)

-Florida. FLA. STAT. ANN. ch. 870.06, 790.29.
-Georgia. GA. CODE ANN. ss 38-2-277, 16-11-150 to -152.
-Idaho. IDAHO CODE ss 46-802, 18-8101 to -8105.
-Illinois. ILL. REV. STAT. ch. 1805, para. 94-95.
-New York. N.Y. MIL. LAW s 240.
-North Carolina. N.C. GEN. STAT. ss 127A-151, 14-288.20.
-Rhode Island. R.I. GEN. LAWS ss 30-12-7, 11-55-1 to -3.


States with Anti-Militia Laws Only (17)

-Alabama. ALA. CODE s 31-2-125.
-Arizona. ARIZ. REV. STAT. ANN. s 26-123.
-Iowa. IOWA CODE s 29A.31.
-Kansas. KAN. STAT. ANN. s 48-203.
-Kentucky. KY. REV. STAT. ANN. s 38.440.
-Maine. ME. REV. STAT. ANN. tit. 37-B, s 342.2.
-Maryland. MD. CODE ANN. art. 65, s 35.
-Massachusetts. MASS. GEN. L. ch. 33, s 129-132.
-Minnesota. MINN. STAT. s 624.61.
-Mississippi. MISS. CODE ANN. $ 33-1-31.
-Nevada. NEV. REV. STAT. s 203-080.
-New Hampshire. N.H. REV. STAT. ANN. s 111:15.
-North Dakota. N.D. CENT. CODE s 37-01-21.
-Texas. TEX. GOV'T CODE ANN. s 431.010.
-Washington. WASH. REV. CODE s 38.40.120.
-West Virginia. W. VA. CODE s 15-1F-7.
-Wyoming. WYO. STAT. s 19-1-106.


States with Anti-Paramilitary Training Laws Only (17)

-Arkansas. ARK. CODE s 5-71-301 to -303.
-California. CAL. PENAL CODE s 11460.
-Colorado. COLO. REV. STAT. s 18-9-120.
-Connecticut. CONN. GEN. STAT. s 53-206b.
-Louisiana. LA. REV. STAT. ANN. s 117.1.
-Michigan. MICH. COMP. LAWS s 750.528a.
-Missouri. MO. REV. STAT. s 574.070.
-Montana. MONT. CODE ANN. s 45-8-109.
-Nebraska. NEB. REV. STAT. s 28-1480 to -1482.
-New Jersey. N.J. REV. STAT. s 2C:39-14.
-New Mexico. N.M. STAT. ANN. s 30-20A-1 to -4.
-Oklahoma. OKLA. STAT. ANN. tit. 21, s 1321.10.
-Oregon. OR. REV. STAT. s 166.660.
-Pennsylvania. 18 PA. CONS. STAT. s 5515.
-South Carolina. S.C. CODE ANN. s 16-8-10 to -30.
-Tennessee. TENN. CODE ANN. s 39-17-314.
-Virginia. VA. CODE ANN. s 18.2-433.1 to -433.3.

Forming or participating in a militia in any of the states listed makes you a criminal there. Once you do that your freedom is totally at the discretion of the government because you have broken the law.

The feds have usually gone after militia members for weapons violations as treason is a hard case to make. There is no federal law against private militias, but Presser v. Illinois certainly opened the door for one. This law was introduced in May of "Domestic Insurgency Act of 1995:

Amends the Federal criminal code to impose a fine and up to ten years imprisonment on whoever knowingly participates in a paramilitary organization. Defines a "paramilitary organization" as two or more individuals acting together, organized in a military or paramilitary structure, who knowingly: (1) possess firearms, explosives, incendiary devices, or other weapons or techniques capable of causing injury or death; or (2) provide or participate in training in the use of any such weapons or techniques with the intention that they be used unlawfully to oppose U.S. or State authority or for any other unlawful purpose."

Nothing stands in the way of congress passing similar legislation. However, they have enough tools in the Patriot Act to move on private militias any time they'd like.

You all can go ahead and talk militias and insurrection all you want. But now that I've explained how illegal it is, you can't do it here on THR, because we don't condone any criminal acts.

Ultimately the choice is yours.

 

[X9ballX]

our founding fathers always said we are ther militia. there will be an uprising if this becomes an anti gun contry

 

[Kevin108]

Please elaborate, I'm not quite getting it?

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
- George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on Ratification of the Constitution

 

[The Bushmaster]

Jeff White...Then when and how do we orginize and stand against a tyrantical government not of our choosing? That is the main reason we have the 2nd Amendment is it not?

By The Way...I don't mean to say we have a tyrantical govenment yet.

 

[Jeff White]

Then when and how do we orginize and stand against a tyrantical government not of our choosing? That is the main reason we have the 2nd Amendment is it not?

When you are ready to take the same risks the founding fathers did. They knew good and well what they were getting into when they organized the American Revolution. They knew in advance that they would be considered traitors and would lose their freedom, their families' freedom, they personal fortunes and quite possibly their lives. Many of them were wealthy men with substantial estates and businesses to lose.

They took these actions only after years of negotiation and attempts to resolve their differences with the Crown through normal channels of redress failed. Many of them had prices put on their heads. Many lost everything they had, watched family members languish and die on prison ships, some served long sentences themselves.

So it will be time after you are ready to become a criminal, abandon your family, your fortune and forfeit your life.

Considering the advancements we've made in the last 20 years, shall issue concealed carry, more and more gun ownership, expiration of the Clinton AWB , Heller.....I don't think any rational person can say we've reached the point where we can't work within the system, because obviously we can.

 

[ZombieHunter]

+1 to Jeff's post

When you are ready to take the same risks the founding fathers did. They knew good and well what they were getting into when they organized the American Revolution. They knew in advance that they would be considered traitors and would lose their freedom, their families' freedom, they personal fortunes and quite possibly their lives. Many of them were wealthy men with substantial estates and businesses to lose.

They took these actions only after years of negotiation and attempts to resolve their differences with the Crown through normal channels of redress failed. Many of them had prices put on their heads. Many lost everything they had, watched family members languish and die on prison ships, some served long sentences themselves.

So it will be time after you are ready to become a criminal, abandon your family, your fortune and forfeit your life.

Considering the advancements we've made in the last 20 years, shall issue concealed carry, more and more gun ownership, expiration of the Clinton AWB , Heller.....I don't think any rational person can say we've reached the point where we can't work within the system, because obviously we can.

 

[The Bushmaster]

And I will agree with Jeff also. Wasn't trying to start a war here. Just getting what I already knew clarified...

Hopefully we can continue to enrich our firearms history in the next 4 years...

 

[tpaw]

"The only "legal" militia is provided for in both state and federal law."

Agreed. It was never suggested to form anything illegal or by any means counter productive to our present laws. I am a law abiding citizen and will always remain to be just that. I guess I was looking for an answer as to how we, as firearms enthusiast, can keep what rights we have left and not loose any more. I tend to agree with this post from a fellow enthusiast.
"Historically, the Bill of Rights is simply a document that recognizes inherent rights that every person is born with and therefore doesn't need to have them granted to them by a governing body. Some of the founding fathers found these so important that they basically made the document so that the government would stay out of these affairs relating to these ten rights."

 

[X-Rap]

My question is what would constitute paramilitary training? Is it legally defined?

 

[ilbob]

My question is what would constitute paramilitary training? Is it legally defined?

Of course not. It is like most other feel good laws. Make it as broad as possible and let the courts figure out what it means.

I don't know that a whole lot of people have ever been prosecuted under these laws. As vague as most of them are, it would be hard to get a conviction that sticks.

OTOH, most of the so called militias almost invariably commit other crimes like selling drugs and weapons violations, so there is maybe no reason to charge them with violations of penny ante anti-militia laws.

 

[Geno]

Per MikePGS' post:

"Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia, by the Captain or Commanding Officer of the company, within whose bounds such citizen shall reside, and that within twelve months after the passing of this Act."

Crap, I was discharged 3 years back and didn't even know it?! Where do I turn in my Red Ryder? <<Smirk>>

 

[X-Rap]

Then my question would focus on some of the intensive tactical and defensive training that is available. It would seem a little paramilitary wouldn't it?

 

[catfish101]

I wouldn't think anybody could say anything for people getting together to train. Self defence training is available just about anywhere. I would think that there are millions of veterans that didn't forget their training or that could remember very fast if they needed or wanted too. If several of those guys got together to practice back up I don't see how that could be a problem.

I agree with some others on the fact that some of the militias that are around today are involved on other things.