.30-06 primer issue

[K3]

Let me preface by saying I will post exact load data this evening. I wanted to post while this was fresh on my mind.

I'm doing load development for .30-06 in a bolt gun. I looked at some of my once fired brass, and the spent primers are not flush. They protrude slightly past the case head. When I seated the primers, they were slightly deeper than flush like I always do them. I use the Lee hand prime tool, and I've had great results on every cartridge I've loaded for with it.

I am using Rem brass (new), Win LR primers, and 180 gr Sierra Gamekings. I will verify powder type and charge tonight, but velocities tell me I am not having pressure issues. I'm still working up, and the fastest lot of these, I have only driven to 2550 fps, well under max for '06.

Any ideas what is causing this? The primer pockets did not feel loose when I seated the primers, and I've developed a good feel for the hand priming tool. I've had some loose primers in the past, and I've always caught it right away and segregated that case from the lot and didn't load it.

Ideas? Am I missing something?

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Sounds to me like either a headspace problem or the powder you are using is too fast burning to get the speed you want.

Need more info to be sure.

 

[gunboat57]

I'm by no means an expert in reloading but aren't protruding primers a sign of LOW pressure? On firing the case is shoved forward by the firing pin, taking up whatever headspace allows, then the case sticks to the chamber as pressure builds but the unsupported primer moves back until it contacts the bolt face.

How far are the primers protruding? On some of my old milsurps with generous headspace the primers can protrude several thousandths when I use mild loads. When I use heavier loads the case fireforms to the chamber and I only neck size after that.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

You're right gunboat....sometimes protruding primers are caused by low pressure...but judging pressure by reading primers is far from a science...they can and will lie to you.

Thats why we need to know what powder and how much.

 

[rcmodel]

Low pressure is the only thing that can cause protruding primers.

With a normal pressure load, no matter how much excess headspace there might be, the primer will be re-seated when the case stretches and slams back into the breachface.

I would be more concerned about why there is so much excess room for the primer to back out that far?

rcmodel

 

[K3]

I'll get the exact powder specs posted this evening as well as a measurement of how far they have backed out.

 

[USSR]

Low pressure is the only thing that can cause protruding primers.

+1. And, if you look at the necks you will probably find them to be "sooty".

Don

 

[K3]

+1. And, if you look at the necks you will probably find them to be "sooty".

Don

Yeah, a bit.

 

[mkl]

If you haven't cleaned the gun, look down the barrel. If it looks like a sewer pipe, that can be another low pressure sign. Incomplete powder combustion.

 

[K3]

If you haven't cleaned the gun, look down the barrel. If it looks like a sewer pipe, that can be another low pressure sign. Incomplete powder combustion.

I shot these loads weeks ago and cleaned the gun a few hours after shooting. Shiny 'n clean.

 

[snuffy]

I am using Rem brass (new), Win LR primers, and 180 gr Sierra Gamekings. I will verify powder type and charge tonight, but velocities tell me I am not having pressure issues.

Given that you are using new brass, I would say that the load is under pressure AND you have a slight excess headspace problem. The new brass should be at minimum headspace unless you full length resized before loading it.

If you load with the FL die backed off from full contact with the shell holder, you should be okay from now on. The absolute best solution is to get a RCBS precision mic so you can measure in thousandths of an inch exactly how much you're sizing that brass. You can then match the brass to the chamber in your rifle. It tells you exactly how much you are moving the shoulder back while full length sizing.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=622021

Without this tool, you are simply guessing about the fit of a sized case. Guessing can lead to case head separations, IF you are sizing too short.

 

[K3]

Given that you are using new brass, I would say that the load is under pressure AND you have a slight excess headspace problem. The new brass should be at minimum headspace unless you full length resized before loading it.

If you load with the FL die backed off from full contact with the shell holder, you should be okay from now on. The absolute best solution is to get a RCBS precision mic so you can measure in thousandths of an inch exactly how much you're sizing that brass. You can then match the brass to the chamber in your rifle. It tells you exactly how much you are moving the shoulder back while full length sizing.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=622021

Without this tool, you are simply guessing about the fit of a sized case. Guessing can lead to case head separations, IF you are sizing too short.

Guilty as charged. I FL resized with the old manufacturer's guess/instructions. I'm going to order some mics for my bolt rifles. I've got one for .308. May as well have them for all the others. Can't hurt even if this is not the issue for my current dilemma.

Whenever I've neck sized fired brass in my bolt guns, I've had excellent results all around. Naturally. I just didn't have a supply of once fireds for .06 to feed from.

I can't imagine the rifle having a problem w.r.t headspace, but anything is possible. It's only 6 or 7 years old and has seen less than 300 rounds through it. But, nothing is outside the realm of possibility.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Or the shoulder is set too far back causing the head space problem in the first place. Might have to fireform them and reset up your resizing die to compensate and move the shoulder up a bit...

 

[K3]

Or the shoulder is set too far back causing the head space problem in the first place. Might have to fireform them and reset up your resizing die to compensate and move the shoulder up a bit...

I'll be neck-sizing this batch of fired brass next time around.

I still need to FL size 100 pieces of new brass though.

 

[rcmodel]

No you don't.
There is no reason to full-length size new brass if it will fit in your rifle without sizing it.

Back off the sizing die just enough to neck-size, which makes sure the new brass is round on the end and the bullets will go in without bending a neck.

rcmodel

 

[K3]

No you don't.
There is no reason to full-length size new brass if it will fit in your rifle without sizing it.

Back off the sizing die just enough to neck-size, which makes sure the new brass is round on the end and the bullets will go in without bending a neck.

rcmodel

Really? I was under the impression that new brass needed to be FL resized. I can see your point b/c it's not formed to my chamber either way until after I fire it. It's just that I've heard it was good to FL resize new brass to get it to 'spec'. So, I 've always done it. Would it be a safe assumption to say I am unnecessarily overworking my brass (and myself)?

So, it shouldn't affect accuracy provided it fits in the rifle?

What about autoloaders?

I've only been reloading for a year now, so forgive a rookie's ignorance.

 

[rcmodel]

Assuming the new brass is made right to start with, and will fit in your rifle, FL sizing before loading the first time is just working the brass for no reason.

All I ever do is neck-size to iron out the dings from loose pack and transportation which new brass seems to alway have.

rcmodel

 

[K3]

As promised:

New Brass (R P)
WLRP
180gr Sierra SBT
OAL = 3.30
RL22

56.5gr - ave mv = 2430fps
57.0gr - ave mv = 2450fps
57.5gr - ave mv = 2520fps

My Sierra manual lists the powder range from 53.7gr to 58.3gr with an OAL of 3.30. This corresponds to mv of 2600 to 2800 fps. Obviously, I'm nowhere near max velocity even though I'm pushing max on charge weight. Lee lists RL22 with an OAL of 3.25 and has a range of charges from 54.0gr to 60.0gr, corresponding to mv of 2463 to 2710 fps. Lee only lists data for '180gr jacketed'. Lyman says 55.5gr/2536fps to 60.8gr/2780fps with OAL of 3.28 for your jacketed 180 gr bullet.

My results look to me like a lot of powder for not much velocity. Strange b/c many sources say RL22 is a good '06 powder for heavier bullets. Maybe I ought to give the orange labelled IMR bottle a try. 4831 works well in many of my other calibers with heavier bullets.

The primer looks to be protruding .006 or .007 according to my vernier calipers. About the thickness of a sheet of paper.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

This is easy...I was wrong...the powder you are using is too slow for 180 grain bullets.

But if you want to use the Reloder 22...The recommended start load is 58 grains...62 grains is max.
That should help.

Reloder 22 is a good '06 powder...with bullets 200 grains and over...
Reloder 19 would work better with the 180 grain bullets....or H4350.

 

[USSR]

New Brass (R P)
WLRP
180gr Sierra SBT
OAL = 3.30
RL22

56.5gr - ave mv = 2430fps
57.0gr - ave mv = 2450fps
57.5gr - ave mv = 2520fps

My Sierra manual lists the powder range from 53.7gr to 58.3gr with an OAL of 3.30. This corresponds to mv of 2600 to 2800 fps. Obviously, I'm nowhere near max velocity even though I'm pushing max on charge weight.

K3,

Sierra's manual has been thoroughly vetted by their lawyers, and you will not find any max load on their pages, despite what they say. I have been using the following load for years:

Lapua or LC Match brass
Fed 210M primer
60.7gr RL 22 powder
190SMK bullet
2900+ fps

If you are going to use RL22 with your 180gr bullets, you will need to use about 60 grains to get a normal pressure load. Hope that helps.

Don

 

[K3]

Thanks Don (and others).

I'll start some new loads as follows:

60gr
60.5gr
61gr

Best 5 round groups I was getting with my now admittedly light loads was at the hottest of the loads and that was 1.4". The guy I bought it from was shooting right at 1" at 100 with factory 180gr Win Super X ammo, so I know the rifle has the potential. I *think* I do as I get slightly less than 1" with my .270. Just have to find the right load for my rifle.

If I don't like the results, I'll give IMR 4831 a try. I've had success in 300Win with 180gr pills as well as .270 with 140gr.

 

[Slamfire]

Don't lose any sleep on it

150 gr SMK 47.5 grs IMR 4895 CCI#34's fired in a 30-06 match bolt gun gave me protruding primers.

The chronograph said the bullets were going 2722 fps.

On ignition the primer backs out. Then the case expands back, stuffing the primer back in the pocket. In this incident, the case did not expand back. It is nothing to be worried about.

 

[USSR]

SlamFire1,

That is indeed a light load (and nice photos showing it, BTW). My Garand load uses 49.5gr of IMR4895 for 144gr FMJBT's.

Don

 

[Slamfire]

The load is probably on the high end of 40,000 psia. But it still shoots good and is easy on a Garand.

I will bet there are not a lot of people still using 1943 brass.

 

[The Bushmaster]

I have a .30 WCF mod 94 that used to back primers out with factory and standard reloads using W-748 near maximum powder charge (32 grains under a 170 grain bullet). Found that if I set my resizing/decapping die .030" off the shell holder that I had no more backed out primers as the shoulder was moved forward by .030". Don't count on .30-30 completely headspacing on the case rim. They do use the shoulder too.