30-06 vs 270...not a question...just some facts

[wow6599]

I am also a fan of the .30-'06, but I am biased because my Grandfather (WWII) still acts like it's the only rifle cartridge ever invented! And my Dad was a fan before his passing, and I too have been teaching my son that the '06 will do anything you need from a rifle in N. America.

I have nothing against the .270, I just think the '06 does everything it can do and then some. I also find that in my circle of friends and hunting acquaintances, the folks who "preach-up" the .270 also seem to not be very fond of recoil - not that there is anything wrong with that.

Here is an article by Craig Boddington from a few years back that I think describes the '06 well.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/the-30-06-still-americas-best/

 

[DM~]

In equil weight rifles that fit the shooter the same, using the same weight bullets, i can't feel any difference in recoil between the 270 and 30-06.

When it comes to what happens when a bullet enters an animal, everyone is worried about bullet "weights", when it's REALLY about bullet "construction"! If you aren't going to worry about bullet construction, then the SD really does matter.

I use to design/swage/sell bullets, i learned a LOT about bullet construction durning those years. Through my own testing, i've come up with what "experence" has shown me to work best on big game.

Personally, for deer, i wouldn't use (std. cup/core) 125's in my 06, as i don't want to be confined to rib shots...

DM

 

[Ridgerunner665]

The Nosler 125 also comes in the Accubond flavor...

 

[roklok]

I like both cartridges, and use both. I do think there is a practical difference in trajectory between the two with loads (bullet weights) normally used in the two cartridges. I have not tried extensively, but I never had a 30-06 load of less than 150 grain bullet weight that satisfied me as far as accuracy goes. Maybe the reason I never tried more load development is the fact that I use a .270 for longer range, thin skinned game scenarios.

I load the 130 grain Hornady SST to 3160 FPS (chronographed) out of my Rem 700 Mountain Rifle. I have killed big game with this load to just shy of 600 yards (dall sheep @584 yards). The Hornady 130 Gr SST penetrated both shoulders at that range, complete pass through. A 125 gr out of a 30-06 might have done the same, I don't know. Your last charts showing the .270WSM and the 30-06 with light bullets reveal almost 10 inches more drop at 600 yards with the 30-06. My .270 loads are pretty darn close to the velocity you used for the .270WSM

Do you (Ridgerunner) use a 30-06 with 125 grain bullets for deer? Or are you just using that bullet weight to show that the 30-06 could in theory match the .270 ? If you do use that weight, what bullet are you using, and are you getting good accuracy ?

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Roklok,
That's a good, well presented post...and I'm gonna answer it...but not tonight, long day at the office and I'm just too dang tired....

Probably tomorrow around 8 or 9pm.

One thing though...the max range being discussed here is 400 yards...I'm not saying its your max range, and it isn't mine either...but for most people its well past max.

 

[xcalibor67]

This topic is sorta like the ole 25-06 versus 270. When comparing 2 similar cals. so many people bring the "But you can get a bigger bulletin this one" aspect.
This is true....But we all know that each rifle is a law within its self. After loading for more cals. than most have heard of, i'll tell ya that most have a preference for certain weight bullets. 25-06, overall best bullet weight i have found is the 100/105 weights..Now im speaking of acurracy..The 270 shines with 130gr weights more times than not. And the 30-06 does best with 150/155 weights.
With FACTORY twist rates, you cant expect 1 rifle to shoot sub MOA with all bullet weights. So when you decide "Which" cal. you want, take into consideration what your hunting, and what weight bullets you intend on using..As i said, just because one cal. offers a huge variety of projectiles, dont hold your breath expecting it to shoot them all up to your expectations..There are a few exceptions, but stick with the Norm, and you wont go wrong. Once you get up to a 270cal. rifle, its not a question of "Is it enough" Its more of a "What do I want".

 

[Ridgerunner665]

roklok,

I myself do not use the 125...I use only Nosler 168 Ballistic Tips for hunting, I do play around with many other bullets just to see what happens on the range though.

I have 3 friends who do use the 125...I load the ammo for them, they all shoot pretty much MOA, plenty good enough for hunting...2 are shooting 30-06's, the other shoots a 300WSM (talk about a laser!)

Between those friends and their wives/girlfriends I have seen 11 deer shot with the 125 in just the last month...its not a theory, with that bullet the 06 shoots just as flat out to 400 yards as any 270 out there...I've seen it with my own 2 eyes.

Yes, the 125 can get messy if the shots are close (especially with the 300WSM, but thats off topic)...and no, I don't recommend shoulder shots unless you're using the Accubond version...I have not seen the AB used as of yet, but I expect in the 06 it would survive a shoulder hit enough to make it to the other side of the deer.

And yes, the charts I posted go to 600 yards...but for this thread, and the discussion therein, 400 yards is the limit...as that is probably farther than the vast majority of hunters shoot anyway.


And....most importantly...not a single load posted, for any round, is anywhere near max...I did that on purpose...every load posted can be heated up a good bit, but it doesn't change anything...

Everything below comes from Nosler load data Volume 7 and uses Litz verified G7 BC numbers...you can see this online...I know these loads cannot be duplicated in every barrel out there, but I have shot many of them in mine (30-06).
http://www.nosler.com/270-winchester
http://www.nosler.com/30-06-springfield

The 130 can get up to 3,160 fps...the 125 can go 3,418 fps...its flatter than the 270 at 400 yards.

The 140 can get up to 3,020...the 168 can get up to 3,002 fps...here they are the same, exactly the same.

The 150 can get up to 2,913 fps...the 180 can go 2,825 fps...the 270 is flatter by only 1 inch at 400 yards.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Either round is a great hunting round as you and your wife have proven. Now if you really want to see internet heads explode tell people that you carry a 375H&H for elk hunting in Colorado...

Robert,

What kind of low rent redneck would carry a .375H&H for elk in Colorado? I've never heard of such a thing!

.270, .30-06, .280, .280 AI, 6.5-06, 7 RM, 7x57, 7mm-08,.260 .300 WM, .308 ETC all do about the same thing on game up to and including elk and moose. They all have about the same ballistics from a field shooters standpoint. None of them give you any magic kill pill on deer sized or even elk or moose sized animals. Put any of these rounds through the heart and lung area with a decent bullet of good construction and any thin skinned animal on the planet is going to die. They all have a MPBR (Max Point Blank Range) within about 50 to 85 yards (from about 225 to about 300 yards) of each other.

In other words Col Cooper said it perfectly when he mentioned that arguing the merits of one of these rounds over the other is simply a matter of preoccupation of inconsequential increments.

IMO, the ability of a round to efficiently kill a tiny little thin delicate white tailed deer is no measure of it's effectiveness on game. That's kind of like bragging on your car because it can go 0 to 60 in under 20 seconds. It proves nothing and it tells very little as to the capability of the round. Deer is one of the easiest to kill softest big game animals that there are. Hit them wrong and they run off, lots of calibers and bullet failures are blamed on poorly hit deer ever year. Hit them in the vitals and they die just like every other animal that lives or breathes. Other than a frigging Crocodile, those dinosaurs don't seem to mind a bullet through the heart at least not for a day or two.....

 

[john_bud]

Interesting data on the performance of 270 and '06. For me (and I assume many folks), the choice of the '06 was based on the fact it was the caliber my dad shot. In fact, my first deer rifle was THE rifle he used to shoot. Never found much that it couldn't do.

Guys I hunt with use anything from .223 out of M4's on up to man canons. A good hit in the right spot always puts them down, but a bad hit in the wrong spot... doesn't. It's just that simple.

 

[jrdolall]

^^^^+1

I have had the good fortune to hunt for over 40 years in my home state with some of the most liberal limits on whitetail deer simply because we have so many deer per hunter. In those years I have probably killed more deer than most hunters in the USA. That's not bragging or talking about my prowess as a deer slayer. It is because I can LEGALLY harvest over 200 deer each year and my profession before retirement allowed me to hunt virtually every day throughout the season. Since I retired I don't get to hunt as much.

I have killed most of those deer with a 30-06 but have also used most of the calibers discussed at one time or another from a 243 up to a Rem ultra mag. I can't think of a single instance where a deer shot in the heart/lung area ran for more than 200 yards using any of these calibers. It simply doesn't take a deer long to run 100 yards after being shot. I have also NEVER seen a case where a bullet deflected off a bone and missed the vitals after a good shot placement though I'm sure it could happen. I have seen deflection but not enough to make the bullet miss the vitals.

I have tracked a lot of animals over the years that were gut shot and ran over a mile. I killed an 8 pointer several years ago that had been shot through the neck with a 243 two weeks earlier. He had a disgusting wound on his neck and may have died from infection but I watched him work a scrape before I saw the wound.

I have never shot a deer with a rifle that I failed to locate within 24 hours. That's not true of a shotgun as I have lost a few. The worst I did was a nice 8 pointer where I stretched out beyond 300 yards and gut shot him and had to back off until the next day. Not a drop of blood and shot right at dusk. He ran maybe 150 yards and bedded down in a pine thicket.

Decent shot placement is the key of course. To the OPs point there is virtually NO noticeable difference in the killing ability of any of these calibers within the effective range of the hunter. To a bench shooter that extra 1" of drop at 450 yards is huge but not to someone shooting whitetail deer. As someone else already said, anyone shooting out to those distances is probably well aware of the capabilities of their gun and cartridge so even an extra 3" of drop really won't matter. I certainly hope that most people don't just guess when they prepare to shoot an elk at 500 yards and say "It's 4 or 500 yards".
"Preoccupation of inconsequential increments". I like that!

 

[jimmyraythomason]

In other words Col Cooper said it perfectly when he mentioned that arguing the merits of one of these rounds over the other is simply a matter of preoccupation of inconsequential increments.

This sums it up pretty well, I think. I shoot the 30.06 (I have 4) because I like it. I don't have and don't shoot the .270 because I don't like it. At my house the matter has been concluded for those reasons.

 

[tdoyka]

shucks, what happens when you own both?

 

[mavracer]

Your last charts showing the .270WSM and the 30-06 with light bullets reveal almost 10 inches more drop at 600 yards with the 30-06.

@600 yards everything is dropping like a rock, so weather it drops 4'9" or 5'6" is of little concequence if you don't know whithin a few yards of the distance to target and the amount of drop at that distance.
Heck as long as I have a good accurate range estimation 500-600 yard shots ain't all that hard even with the rainbow trajectory of my 45-70.

 

[RubenZ]

I have a .270 Remin 700 with Leupold Vair XII. Won it in a Raffle at a gun show and it is my GO TO hunting gun here in South Texas. I have no reason for anything more. I do have a .308 varmint but thats too heavy to lug around for general whitetail hunting. If I feel like just sitting and popping off hogs I'll use the .308 on a bipod. I guess like others have said, it depends on the user and what they just feel comfortable shooting.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Yeah...I had not heard that Cooper quote either...I like that, and agree with it completely.

It sums up the whole point of this thread perfectly in those few words...only Cooper could do that so eloquently.

 

[CarJunkieLS1]

Here is my non expert take on this .270 and .30-06 discussion.

At 400 yards I agree that both calibers are so close in performance that it doesn't matter which one you choose given everything else being the same. I have both calibers my 22" barrel .270 shoots a 130gr bullet at 3019fps. With my .270 I choose "speed kills" as my mantra.

Now onto the .30-06 I haven't shot a deer with it yet but my hand loads are under factory fps ratings. I'm launching a 150gr bullet at 2650fps. It will not be nearly as "flat" as my .270 but out to 250yards it will kill just as well. My .30-06 is "slow and heavy" and its recoil is very mild. Could I push my .30-06 faster of course I could but the accuracy I wanted wasn't there. Either way both calibers will kill out to my personal max range of 250yards.

IMO if I wanted a screaming fast .30 caliber bullet that shot flat out to 400 yards I'd choose a 300 Win Mag. I'm strictly talking thin skinned medium game here like deer, pronghorn, etc.