.30-30 Improved + Leverevolution bullets= .308Win Performance?

[JohnKSa]

.30-30 Ackley Improved+Leverevolution bullets=.308Win Performance?

Just musing about the performance increase provided by the new Hornady ammo with the soft pointed tip and what it might mean.

The .30-.30 Leverevolution ammo gives about an 8-10% bump up in performance, about the same as the difference between .30-.30 and .30-.30 Ackley Improved.

Together they turn the .30-30 into a very different cartridge. Instead of 150grains @ 2400fps, now you have 160 grains @ 2600fps. AND with a bullet that has the aerodynamics to hold velocity much better than the old flat or round nose lever gun bullets...

That's nipping at the heels of .308Win performance--but out of a levergun with a tubular magazine.

 

[jerkface11]

I've seen some tests on the leverution ammo and it isn't really in improvement over standard 30-30 at all. Why not look around for a .307 winchester if you want .308 performance out of a levergun.

 

[9mmdude]

Looks like good stuff to me:

http://hornady.com/story.php?s=198

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I've seen some tests on the leverution ammo and it isn't really in improvement over standard 30-30 at all. Why not look around for a .307 winchester if you want .308 performance out of a levergun.

It is a big improvement, and the point is that you don't have to buy a new rifle to get the improvment. Additionally, with the Leverevolution ammo in .30-30 you are getting performance better than the standard .307 out of a tubular mag, because .307 has to use flat pointed bullets too, at least until they come out with the new bullet loaded for it.

 

[Jeff Timm]

Better to stick with a .30-30 and not try tricks. The .30-30 is what it is, appreciate that and if you need more power, get a .308 lever action with a box or rotary magazine.

Geoff
Who doesn't try to streach performance.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Better to stick with a .30-30 and not try tricks. The .30-30 is what it is, appreciate that and if you need more power, get a .308 lever action with a box or rotary magazine.

Geoff
Who doesn't try to streach performance.

I'm sorry, but this is just an absurd point of view. Improvements in bullet design to improve retained energy have been happening since the introduction of gun powder. No one is talking about hot loading the .30-30. The improvement is in aerodynamics of the bullet shape in a way which overcomes the problems associated with tubular magazines, which has always held the .30-30 back. Now, a lot of people who haven't chosen their old Winny 94 for their hunts might actually dust them off and give them a new look. Naturally, if your thing is hunting boar over dogs or bait, you will not need the extra range provided with this new bullet design, so you can just keep using the flat pointed bullets and do just fine, but some people would actually like to be able to extend the effective range of their old lever guns. No reason to be a curmudgeon about it.

Now, let me say something in favor of the flat pointed .30-30: at close range, it might just be superior to the pointed round, in that it tends to smack hard from the point of impact, and keeps hitting hard until it stops, because flat soft points transfer energy fast. Unfortunately, flat points also get smacked by the air in travel, which means that they transfer a lot of their energy into the air before they reach their targets. That's wasted energy, so for longer shots than 100 yards, you are much better off using a bullet with a point on it.

 

[jerkface11]

But there isn't really an improvement buy some and run it over a chronograph. Hornady isn't being honest about the velocity.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

But there isn't really an improvement buy some and run it over a chronograph. Hornady isn't being honest about the velocity.

You will not see any improvement by running them over a chronny because they do not start out significantly faster. The increased retained velocity will not be noticeable until the bullet has already travelled more than 100 yards.

 

[Ad Astra]

Ammo innovations that expand the performance envelope of any firearm is a great thing.

Also, think about how many .30-30's are out there, and it's a good place to do it.

You always could have handloaded a pointy performance round, with just one in the tube mag. for a followup shot.... and more rounds in your pocket.

Hopefully nobody is rapid firing a whole tube mag. while hunting....

 

[only1asterisk]

Marketing pure and simple.

Lots of people already have a 30-30, 35 Rem., 45/70, etc.. Many of these people aren't rifle nuts. They aren't going to run out and buy a new rifle fo a new cartridge we develope. They will buy one box of ammo a year and if we promise something extra and make it look cool it will be our box.

2400fps transates into 2250 from a 20" Model 94 or 336.
Hornady list a BC of .330 of the 160 grain bullet. Speer's 170 list at .304.

I'd like to see how the Hornady bullet performs on game.


David

 

[Old Dog]

But there isn't really an improvement buy some and run it over a chronograph. Hornady isn't being honest about the velocity.

In Dan Johnson's article on the LEVERevolution ammo in the Jan. Guns & Ammo, he notes that he chrono'ed the 160-grain .30-30 load and got 140 fps more out of it than the Federal Premium (w/Nosler Partition) 170-grainers ... You telling me this isn't an improvement?

Now, I take magazine reviews with a grain of salt, but the accuracy report and the pics of the bullet expansion looked pretty positive to me as well.

I'm excited about this new stuff, and may go out this weekend and pick up a new lever-action rifle (been kinda looking at the stainless 336) when I buy some ...

 

[iamkris]

It seems to be a significant improvement for the ol' thutty-thutty. Adds maybe 100 yards of real-world range to a grand old cartridge. I think it's a bit generous to talk about it as a way to get 308 performance, however. You will never get the same BC's our of those pyramid "Lever-ution" bullets for ranges over 300 yards.

 

[_N4Z_]

P.S. For a really relevant fictional parallel of what's happening in America regarding our transformation into a police state, and the proper reaction of the people thereto, read Chapter VIII The Scouring of the Shire, in J.R.R. Tolkien's Return of the King, which is book III of The Lord of the Rings. Very meaningful for our times.

P.P.S. It's not in the movie version. Wonder why.

There is in fact a vision of the scouring, but your right it does get left out along with several parts I would have like to have seen. I also doubt Peter Jackson did this for any reason other than time constraints on an already epic length movie. Remember that this film was initiated a good 7 or 8 years ago, long before things became the way they are today. I like your analogy though.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

There is in fact a vision of the scouring, but your right it does get left out along with several parts I would have like to have seen. I also doubt Peter Jackson did this for any reason other than time constraints on an already epic length movie. Remember that this film was initiated a good 7 or 8 years ago, long before things became the way they are today. I like your analogy though.

After the return to the Shire, Jackson wasted a lot of time with lots of boring material. That time would have been better spent on telling the story of how they dealt with the tyranny they found on their return. Also, he wasted a lot of time on the love affair between Strider and the elf, which I do not recall reading about in the book, although it's been a long time since I read it.

 

[pcf]

I've tried 150gr and 165gr spitzers in a Marlin 30-30 before out to 200 yards there is no noticable difference in performance when compared to 150gr and 170gr round nose bullets, respectively. At 300yds there was a noticable difference. The 150gr bullets were loaded over 34.5gr W748 and the 165/170gr bullets were loaded over 32 grs Varget.

Bullet 100yds 200yds 300yds
150gr Winchester PP/RN 0 -6" -27"
150gr Nosler BT 0 -5.5" -21"
170gr Winchester PP/RN 0 -7.5" -30"
165gr Nosler BT 0 -7" -25"

With the 30-30 bullet type doesn't make that much of difference inside of 200yds. All of the above loads have a field zero (+/- 3") at about 160-175 yards, with max range at 190-200yds. Beyond that the hunters ability to judge distance, holdover and windage is the deciding factor, not bullet type. I think the Hornady bullets are neat, but IMO they're not going to turn the 30-30 into a 300 yard cartridge in the hands of someone that couldn't make the shots already.

 

[carebear]

After the return to the Shire, Jackson wasted a lot of time with lots of boring material. That time would have been better spent on telling the story of how they dealt with the tyranny they found on their return. Also, he wasted a lot of time on the love affair between Strider and the elf, which I do not recall reading about in the book, although it's been a long time since I read it.

If you don't punch up the implicit (in the book) tragic love between Aragon and Arwen (which parallels a similar tragic elf/human pairing (Elrond's mom / Arwen's g-mom IIRC) in the Silmarillon) you lose some of the sadness in Eowyn's self-sacrifice at Pellanor due to not being able to have Aragorn.

Plus, the dames need a love story (not just sexy elf and ranger eye candy) to make up for all the cool fighting.

Not disagreeing, just pointing out.

Apparently pointing out I'm a total geek.

 

[Jaywalker]

pcf:

Beyond that the hunters ability to judge distance, holdover and windage is the deciding factor, not bullet type. I think the Hornady bullets are neat, but IMO they're not going to turn the 30-30 into a 300 yard cartridge in the hands of someone that couldn't make the shots already.

True, but so what? The velocity at any given point will be greater with the new bullets. Assuming they're constructed properly, that leads to improved terminal performance on game - without having to buy a new rifle.

The 30-30 has worked for over 100 years, essentially as it is. Unfortunately, the performance at longer ranges has historically led to its nickname as "leg-breaker," a reference to its excessive drop at over 175 yards or so. Folks stretch the shot, and clearly have it lined up okay, but the drop causes a miss or a marginal hit. The ammo might or might not help folks get a cleaner hit, but those that are marginal will have just a wee bit more authority.

Jaywalker

 

[Atticus]

Have two threads merged here ...or what?

Unless it's really expensive, I don't see a downside to the new Hornady ammo. I have a Marlin in .35 Rem. Granted, this ammo would not be of great benefit at ranges under 200 yards, but what is wrong with adding greater potential? Speed and energy increases are fairly significant at all ranges. It's kind of ironic that hand loaders will spend a great amount of time and effort to squeeze a little more out of a load, and then turn around tell people that this is no big deal.

 

[rockstar.esq]

+1 Atticus!

Personally I hope that those bullets will come out for handloaders so I can try the .444 marlin bullet in my .44 mag!

 

[Oldnamvet]

Following was copied from the handloading forum of Dec 10th. Looks like Hornady will only be offering loaded ammo.*sigh*
_____________________________________________________________


Senior Member



Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Plain Ol', Texas
Posts: 1,835 Hornady LeveRevolution Bullets

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I ask:

Quote:
From: rbernie
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 7:08 PM
To: Webmaster
Subject: LeveRevolution

When do you anticipate having the bullets from this loading available to
reloaders?

and the reply is:


Quote:
From: Kathy McArthur [[email protected]]
Sent: Wed 12/7/2005 12:13 PM
To: rbernie
Subject: RE: LeveRevolution

Probably not in 2006, if ever.


Guess that's that.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

I don't really see the point in the new ammo. Everyone who hunts in territory where hunting distance exceeds 100 meters will pretty much already have a different rifle than the 30/30.
Here in the Appalachians (Western NC) the 30/30 has probably killed more game than any other caliber. The deer I've shot have been at less than 50 yards.
When I need something that will do more distance than 100 meters, I have a .308 Reminton woodmaster semi auto and an 8mm mauser.
In fact, I killed my first deer (an 8 pointer) with a borrowed 7mm mauser which is popularly known as an anemic caliber.

I just don't see the point in trying to make the 30/30 into a 100 meter + weapon.

Though, innovation does create new and exciting ideas, which in turn give life to other new and exciting ideas. *shrug*

 

[Atticus]

Bottom line (in my opinion) is- what is wrong with having something a little more capable than what you currently have? I'm sure there are more than a few places where heavy woods open up to clearings where you might get a 250-300 yard shot. Why not have something that performs better under varying conditions, and just might give you that extra edge when you need it? And most importantly, you can buy it off the shelf.

 

[Oldnamvet]

Why not improve the 30/30?

I am sure that years ago some people didn't want to have smokeless powder either. I read once a biography where the person thought percussion caps were a nuisance and just another thing to lose. Flint lock rifles were good enough. Etc, etc. Progress is good just for the sake of chance. Helps keep us from getting too grumpy and turning into curmudgeons.

 

[Atticus]

Helps keep us from getting too grumpy and turning into curmudgeons.

Lol... or at least from getting bored!!

 

[_N4Z_]

***

If you don't like the new ammo, or what it can do for you, or don't need the extra range for your lever, don't buy it. I don't understand the arguments against something improved though... It's not like the tried and true rounds aren't still gonna be available.

For me, I'll take a little of everything to cover all the bases. My 336 will have variety on the menu. Variety is the spice of life after all yes?