300 Blackout for Deer

[243winxb]

It is generally recommended that a small bore (.24-.32 caliber) rifle bullet suitable for medium size (CXP2 class) game be carrying about 800 ft. lbs. of kinetic energy when it hits.

www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_bullet_killing_power.htm

 

[pdsmith505]

I've taken plenty of white tail with my 10.5" AR in .300 Blk. The sbr is handy in small stands, and for shots up to 125 yds or so it's perfect.

Granted, I did my research and pay for good bullets, sacrificing a box of Barnes Tac-tx's to load development to make sure my shots are on the money.

I would not use subs for hunting since there are only one or two bullets designed to expand at those speeds in .30 cal, and they cost $1 or more per bullet.

 

[35 Whelen]

In recent years I have taken to the idea of filling my buck deer tag with the traditional Remington 700 in 25.06 that has been my go-to rifle for more than 30 years, then utilizing something less traditional or more exotic for subsequent doe tags.

This year I pulled out my AR15 300 Blackout 10" SBR with silencer & cheap 1x red dot for day 2 of the hunt, expecting to use it for close quarters work in the brush & swamps because I had my doubts about the little cartridge's effectiveness at anything outside of 100 yards. I use Barnes TAC TX 110 grain bullets.

It turns out that I did not get a shot off in the brush, but sitting in my stand had a chance to take a shot at a trotting deer at an extended range. Almost without thinking I fired on the deer and dropped it. Paced it off and was shocked to count 286 yards. Probably a very lucky shot, but it gives me a new respect and confidence in the 300BLK as a viable deer cartridge.

Other than the inevitable flaming that will come my way for not using something like a 300 WinMag or 338 Lapua to effectively & humanely harvest deer, does anyone out there in THR land have a good or bad experience report for the 300BLK for deer this year?

No probably about it, you made an extremely lucky shot and even at that, you must've hit the deer's central nervous system for it to drop as you describe. Last I read, TSX bullets require a minimum of 1700 fps to expand. Generously assuming a velocity of 2200 fps from a 10" barrel, at the range you describe, your bullet would've been moving at about 1400 fps and would not have even begun to expand. Further, assuming a 100 yd. zero, your bullet would've dropped around 2' at 286 yds.

I completely understand the desire to hunt with something "different" as I've carried a 130 year old 1873 Winchester all season. But when we carry short range cartridges into the deer woods, we have the responsibility to take keep our shots within the effective range of the cartridge and rifle (Mine is 75+/- yds. with the Winchester).

Your AR15 300 SBR's ballistics are roughly the equivalent of an M1 Carbine, which is universally known to be at best a marginal, short range tool for deer hunting.

35W

 

[Gordon]

In my recent testing of 10" .300 Blackout pistol and 8.5" of my son's I think 200 yards is maximum I would consider as a shot on smaller deer . We use 1-6x scopes and bipods and can get 2" groups at that range but the ballistic impact of the 110 grain projectiles reminds me of my M-1 Carbine testing with Remington 110 grain softpont. Only in a survival situation would I do it at over 100 yards.

 

[Gtscotty]

Wasn't there a thread in THR hunting section last year where a Texas deer outfitter said no more .300 Blackout for his customer/hunters due to poor results and lost deer? Correct me if I'm wrong.

As I remember it, the outfitter specifically banned subsonic 300 BLK due to the poor wounding characteristics of the heavy target bullets at subsonic velocities most commonly used. Operators attempting to operate stealthily on his hunts were wounding lots of game, so he closed the books on their operations.

Edit: Whups, somehow missed ClickClickD'ho's earlier post.

 

[plodder]

As the OP to this thread, I can tell you that:

1. The Barnes TX 110 clocks at 2275 fps out of my 10.5" barrel at 10' (measured on my old Chrony)
2. 19.5 g. of H110 is the propellant
3. I had worked through a "solution", at least using the Federal ballistics calculator prior to setting up in my stand with the .300BLK. It showed:
   1. 20.3" drop at 275 yds (my known marker from my stand)
   2. 1555 fps @ 275 yds
4. My 1x red dot (Lucid) did not obscure a significant portion of the deer at that range
5. My shot did sever the spine, no projectile recovered (Lucky, as I admit to)
6. If I only ever took shots at standing deer, I can only think of 1 deer in the last 20 I have killed that I would have ever been able to take a shot at.

 

[plodder]

As the OP, I can tell you that:

1. The Barnes TX 110 projectiles clock at 2275 fps 10' from the muzzle.
2. I had, in fact, come up with a "solution" prior to setting up in my stand:
   
   1. One of my known markers was at 275 yds, at which the Federal ballistics calculator shows 20.3" drop, 1555 fps velocity remaining and 590 ft./lbs. energy.
3. Barnes advertizes expansion at 1300fps with the TX 110.
4. The projectile severed the deer's spine but I did not recover it for photos. (Indeed, a lucky shot as I admit)
5. Of the last 20 deer I have killed, I remember only 1 that was not moving or running full tilt. If I never shot at a moving deer I would not kill any deer.
6. I never leave a wounded animals in the field. I do not give up whether I shoot, hunting partners shoot, or strangers I come across who are tracking their own.
7. As expected, I do feel duly chastised and flamed for even bringing the subject up.
8. I think next year I will revert back to the Garand for rifle number 2. The old 30.06 aught to satisfy most.

 

[1stmarine]

Solid Barnes work best with high striking speeds like any other solids in the market.

If one likes small cartridges, a much better yet easy way to go is the 6.8spcII with 95gr TTSX and a few other bullets that while
modest grain they have higher sectional density than a light for caliber 110gr 30 carbine bullet and strike at a much higher speeds.
A 18" barrel propels these to 2,850fps with much higher energy and speed on the target.

I have not tried the 6.5mm 100gr ttsx on the LBC(grendel) but it should also put some serious speed on them.

Also the 7.62x39 offers premium 125gr, 130gr and 152gr premium hunting ammo and while it suffers some of the same shortcomings
of the light for caliber .30 bore, at least it has the case capacity to pump some more serious grain. It can also work really well in subsonic
should that be needed.

If one wants to use the same magazines and bolt and is going to be reloading anyway the 6x45 or 6TCU will lauch a 85gr speer SPBT or
equivalent to 2,800+ fps. Lesbaer sells the uppers that will put dime size groups on paper all day. I think they sell some 6x45 ammo too or
at least they used to.

So it is not due to the lack of better choices that are easy and cost effective. I would choose a rifle round over a light pistol round for deer.
The options are readily available so not sure why anyone would ant to limit him/herself to a cartridge that was designed for pistol
bullets and subsonic work. I love the whisper and have fun shooting subsonic loads but it is what it is no matter how much we want
it to be what it is not.

 

[Varminterror]

But he wasn't AT 275yrds. He was at an unknown distance. At least that's how you cited it in your original post. Even with a little extra MV over what I load mine, you're still talking about a lot of drop between 275 and 286 which wasn't appropriately solved prior to the shot.

Must have trouble getting close to game if all of them you shoot are running.

 

[kudu]

Given a bit more notice I would of set up my daughter with one of my .300BO's. As it was she shot a .357 Mag out of a Savage 24V combo gun. It did the job, but I think the .300BO would of been better. Indiana just opened up gun season for rifles in 6mm and .30 caliber only for a 2 year test. The BO is legal and better performing than a legal .357, but won't travel 4 or 5 miles like a .300RUM if a novice hunter takes a bad shot.

There is a give and take for every caliber combination and hunting situation. Each hunter has to weigh the plus' and minus' in their area and range. What one hunter is capable of and comfortable doing with their skill level doesn't mean another hunter is.

 

[eastbank]

i load my aac model 7 remington in 300blk with a 1x4 leupold scope and130gr flat base hollow point with H-110, i will not give the load as its to hot for a semi-auto pistol-rifle. i have only killed ground hogs and a few crows at a little over 100yrds and they were DRT. would i shoot a deer with it? yes, from a good rest and a broadside double lung shoot at no longer than 100-125 yards. eastbank.

 

[1stmarine]

Given a bit more notice I would of set up my daughter with one of my .300BO's. As it was she shot a .357 Mag out of a Savage 24V combo gun. It did the job, but I think the .300BO would of been better. Indiana just opened up gun season for rifles in 6mm and .30 caliber only for a 2 year test. The BO is legal and better performing than a legal .357, but won't travel 4 or 5 miles like a .300RUM if a novice hunter takes a bad shot.

There is a give and take for every caliber combination and hunting situation. Each hunter has to weigh the plus' and minus' in their area and range. What one hunter is capable of and comfortable doing with their skill level doesn't mean another hunter is.

Well, with the 357magnum you have 140gr ftx that can be propelled to 2200fps+ in a pretty compact lever action. So even the SD is pretty modest there is more mass, more frontal section
and the 35 caliber bore that is known for massive wounding even with the most modest rounds for hunting. I am just having a hard time wrapping my mind around why someone would
want a 30 carbine+ or whisper to hunt when so many other better options are readily available. I try to think from the animals perspective you know. Give them a good humane death
with plenty of killing power to spare. After all there are many other calibers with low recoil for all size of hunters that are more effective in every single departments of the ballistics world.

 

[CraigC]

I can't speak for others but the suppressed .300BO (Ruger American Ranch) is going to give me more hunting opportunities. If the cartridge works, I will use it. Having been a handgun hunter for decades, I'm accustomed to throwing conventional wisdom regarding kinetic energy to the wind.

Seems to me that folks choosing the wrong bullet is giving the cartridge a bad name. There seems to be a disconnect among the suppressor hunting community in that super heavy bullets make up for the low velocity. That's true to a point but other factors cannot be discounted. This is handgun velocity so handgun rules apply. Bullet construction is everything. If you're using a big bore, you don't need expansion. All you need is a good cast LBT or SWC and a 500gr is not going to kill deer any better than a 300gr. If you're using a smallbore like the .300 (or .357 in handguns), expansion is mandatory for good terminal performance. You can't just poke a 220gr bullet designed for the .30-06 or .300 magnums in the small case, propel it to 1000fps and it expect it to do anything but poke a very small hole. What is needed is a bullet that expands at subsonic velocity and it will do the job within the .300's range limitations.

At high velocity, well, the .300Whisper was doing the job in handguns long before most here ever thought about the Blackout. Again, with proper bullets, it should work fine.

All that said, I'll be ordering bullets from Lehigh for subsonic use and the Barnes 110gr for supersonic use.

 

[1stmarine]

@CraigC
you are right a lot of these things come down to understanding the bullets terminal properties and terminal behavior and a pistol cartridge can be pretty effective knowing the limitations
of distance and game size. But at the same time we also need to do a pragmatic assessment and be more critical and perhaps less optimistic about light for caliber options specially
in the small bores.

Many pistol cartridges can be effective because, although sectional density and speed might be modest, we compensate with mass (grains) that is momentum and frontal section and perhaps
designs that are known for massive wounding at slower striking speeds. The directives are well known like caliber, mass, momentum (not energy, two different things), striking speed and then
the specific bullet design. I think when we talk about calibers even the 35 has 180gr for 357 pistol /rifle so we can afford to trade a couple of those variables for another but a different thing
is to fall short in all of those variables and just rely in one characteristic and marginally so.

So in other words, in the absence of mass and speed lets put some serious grain and frontal section that is what we do when we hunt with pistol and calibers including popular thumpers.
The whisper is none of those and it should be treated like a +P 30 carbine. It was originally designed by Marty from SSK for subsonic work and the rest is internet marketing.

I approach this from the perspective that gel ballistics tests and other terminal tests have relative value and that we need to look at this pragmatically and follow the directions of ethical
hunters and professionals all over. I understand is super cool to be able to shoot with a nice compact upper, I like that too, but is it because we are trying to prove this can work and even
it should work or can we consider something else that will provide more appropriate and predictable terminal behavior. I want to clarify that when I refer to terminal behavior this is not just
a fancy word for wounding and I don't like to just rely on wounding potential but to really induce shock and hydraulic pressure to disrupt the neurological system no matter the angle and if
the thing doesn't look good even with the right caliber then move on. After all it is not just a redundancy measure but an more ethical way to provide super fast humane kills. In many cases
the meat will taste better too w/o the brain able to provide a reflex and injection of adrenaline. I never heard anyone complaining about fast killing potential however I heard and encountered
a few instances myself of injured and lost game. And this can happen with any caliber right but I am just saying why risk a lot more than what we should?

And this is my case for speed and shock aside from wide and deep wounding. I listen carefully to you and everyone else as everyone's opinion counts but I also talk to other people in person
and discuss these things over the camp fire, sometimes with people that have taken thousands of heads of game and will know more than I will ever know and it really changes your perspective
over time.

Most people of the THR seem like experienced shooters and hunters and I am sure will be looking for distance and other limitations but I also ask people to match bullets to body weight,
to consider the huge restrictions of these small pistol cartridges, and to be open to other perspectives.

 

[Olympus]

The best advice I can give you is to join the 300 Blackout group on Facebook. You will see a lot of photos of people using their 300 Blackout on deer. You'll see pictures of entrance and exit wounds as well as load data from actual users.

 

[eastbank]

i think its like the super hunters on the tv hunting shows, bow and rifle. you never see or hear about the ones they wounded and lost, as i posted i would use my black out on deer if every thing was right, range, posion of animal letting for a clean shot and from a good rest to make sure i did my part in taking the animal. with the black out class of calibers and firearms you don,t have much room for error. eastbank.

 

[Ibmikey]

Eastbank, The shots in the part of Texas where I hunt hogs are rarely over 100 yards and taken from blinds where you often have plenty of time to make the best shot possible. My buddy who lives there takes deer from those stands all the time but usually with a Creedmore as he is not a Blackout fan. Given the opportunity I would not hesitate to use my Ruger Ranch 300 Blackout and 3x9 scope on a Whitetail deer under those circumstances. out in the wilds of Montana, not a chance as the caliber is just not up to those distances or size of animal.

 

[mgmorden]

The shots in the part of Texas where I hunt hogs are rarely over 100 yards

That's about the situation here too. I don't think I've ever taken a shot over 100 yards and the vast majority are 50 or under (heck the last deer I got was shot at around 20 yards away). It's just the nature of the land here - generally thick forest. At those ranges I don't think the blackout would have much trouble. Also down south deer tend to be smaller too.

 

[CraigC]

with the black out class of calibers and firearms you don,t have much room for error. eastbank.

At 100yds or less, with the proper bullet, it's no different than hunting with a handgun cartridge.

 

[1stmarine]

At 100yds or less, with the proper bullet, it's no different than hunting with a handgun cartridge.

There is certainly some truth to that but at the same time it also depends what handgun caliber because there are others more effective than small caliber, light weight bullets right?

Even the popular and modest 357 magnum shot from a lever carbine trades off some of the speed for more mass and larger frontal section with more wounding potential in the low end threshold.
This is what the popular thumpers are designed for. Some can put massive grain, show less deflection in thick forest and bush country, and still smash the hell out of the target.
That is a trade off that makes sense, not possible with low capacity small caliber pistol casings.

To represent what I am trying to explain here, I think the below are good examples from the same manufacturer of high performance hunting ammunition
who test their ammo and they actually tell us about the firearms used in the testing:

A small for caliber "rifle/carbine" round like a 30 carbine shot from a carbine just a tad slower than the whisper/blackout...
2122 fps - Inland/General Motors.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=426

vs.

A small to medium for caliber "pistol" round 357 Magnum from a comparable 18: lever ...c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 2153 fps
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100
The 357 can push 30-40 extra grains of lead like a 140ftx even faster with a tad improved ballistics. But aside from the additional grain we have the well known
capacity of the 35 bore to inflict massive wounding at even lower speeds. In addition the advantage of this modest pistol cartrige to send 170-180gr bullets to very
reasonable speeds with extra terminal performance potential if that is needed for deep penetration.

And this is just to show a quick representation with a popular cartridge w/o bribing up heavy +P 44 or socom among others, some simple and affordable and some others
more involved and/or expensive.

The world of ballistics is a world of trade offs of some sort always. The issue is, do we have enough powder capacity to consider a meaningful and effective
trade off that would work better for a hunting application? IMO, the 30 bore is a fine versatile one but the lack of powder capacity of the 30 carbine, whisper and a few others is what
severely restricts that possibility.

 

[1stmarine]

The best advice I can give you is to join the 300 Blackout group on Facebook. You will see a lot of photos of people using their 300 Blackout on deer. You'll see pictures of entrance and exit wounds as well as load data from actual users.

I think it is awesome that people get together in online groups but I think we should also be careful when sharing the room with marketing folks and tacticool evangelists
and spend some time getting professional training in group or one on one for those who can afford it. Also reading some books about hunting from reputable professionals.

The internet is a great way to learn and exchange knowledge but at the same time is a huge selling machine too. We always see the pictures of wonderful kills and little about
slow deaths and badly wounded animals, that is understandable, because this is a cause of shame for the hunter, outrage for the viewer and a big no no for the salesman.
Educational pictures might be even removed and accounts terminated so there is little chance to learn objectively in a sales and marketing context.
Anyone who has hunted long enough have seen this face of hunting and how sad and tragic this is and why we should do everything we can to honor the animal with
a formidable death. This includes bringing the right tools for the job.

I am specially worried about facebook, youtube and others because they are owned and administered by known radical liberals who are part of the disarmament agenda.
That is why I think hunting and shooting enthusiasts should look for alternative plans and restrict their pictures because one day they might find out all their online presence
and content is gone. If the sponsors are paying they might delay or accommodate but I trust them as much as coin with two heads. They have done that to others before.

 

[CraigC]

I was thinking more along the lines of the Lehigh 194gr load at subsonic velocities as compared to more moderate handgun loads. There are certainly handgun loads that put the .300 to shame. If I can get full expansion and an exit wound with that load on broadside shots I'll be a happy camper.

IMHO, this is a specialized tool for special circumstances. If it were my only deer rifle, it wouldn't be a .300BO.

 

[1stmarine]

I was thinking more along the lines of the Lehigh 194gr load at subsonic velocities as compared to more moderate handgun loads. There are certainly handgun loads that put the .300 to shame. If I can get full expansion and an exit wound with that load on broadside shots I'll be a happy camper.

IMHO, this is a specialized tool for special circumstances. If it were my only deer rifle, it wouldn't be a .300BO.

Oh, I see.

Do you have to go silent or is just the means to get to some decent grain?

Perhaps you will like something in the lines like the one I developed. What about 200gr at 2300-2400fps from the 16" AR15?
I built a 35 cat just for that reason and with a 10" pistol will put about the same speed with the 180 gr bullets and lil-gun. This one is reload only obviously.
This gives you the same punch and momentum at 300 yards as the AK round at the muzzle, but I can load it milder if I want.
The nice thing about the 35 caliber is that it will let you shoot some very serious rounds on a very low budget with the FMJs value packs for the 357 pistol.
I will also leave the Socom and Beowulf behind due to the improved trajectory and much higher speeds at impact with more energy to spare.
And then you have some very nice premium 358 hunting bullets of course. 200gr FTX and 180g speer and fairly priced too.
I am not trying to sell anything. I am thinking this is something seasoned hunters can appreciate specially because of the wide range of game weight
one can tackle with a pistol or the shortest carbine upper all the way to the largest game on this continent.
Unfortunately I have not being able to shoot 310gr-320gr subsonic loads essentially because of the twist will not stabilize. I need to find a barrel with 10 inches twist and
chamber it.

in a larger case and SA department there is the 358 winchester that is a bulldozer.

 

[CraigC]

Both. Hunting suppressed affords me more hunting opportunities and saving my already damaged hearing is a definite plus. I also trust heavy bullets to be more reliable on game. I also like the option of lighter bullets at higher velocities.

I usually prefer to hunt with more traditional guns so am not yet pursuing any options for the AR. Although your cartridge does sound interesting.

 

[1stmarine]

oh ok. take care of the hearing. Always use double protection when you can.
If you like traditional the 35 reminton can be pumped a tad in modern firearms.
You know how this works, if one is shooting subsonic, pistols or MLs basically send them grain!