303 British Ammo

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If cleaning after shooting corrosive ammo is a pain, your doing it wrong. All that is needed is to punch the bore with two wet patches, then a dry patch and then an oil patch. After that it's just like cleaning any other gun.


In a bolt gun I will tear down the bolt as well....in an automatic it is a bit more complex.

Modern powders are so clean anymore your described method is what I do now....unless it is rim fire.

Surplus has zero place for me.....it is not as accurate as the stuff you make, perhaps you like to shoot and have one go here and the other go there....I myself like to hit what I aim at.

NO surplus ammo is going to be as good as you can make it.
 
re: chlorate "corrosive" primers residue

Be aware that the potassium chloride (the part that, with H2O, rusts your gun) is carried in the propellant gases you would be prudent to wet-wipe (water) all steel surfaces that are touched by those gases in order to remove the tiny bit of salt deposited.

I recall reading a post long ago by a fellow who was shooting a milsurp rifle with corrosive milsurp ammo. He was half-smart about pre-cleaning the residue.

He properly pre-cleaned the rifle with something water-based, including wiping the boltface ... but he did nothing to clean that bayonet that he had hanging off of the muzzle for much of his fun day shooting.

Months later he discovered that the bayonet had badly rusted.
 
I don't have a break out of the percentage of the stockpile that are small arms ammunition, but I have read in other presentations, that by weight, it is a significant amount. At least 50%.

I would like to see the breakdown of what percentage of the above is small arms ammunition. I would still like to see the link to the Enfield thumb accident as well. I can copy and paste stuff off the internet as well. Deterioration of high explosives is not relivent to this conversation.

Small arms ammunition is defined here. http://www.weaponslaw.org/weapons/small-arms-ammunition

I would like to see the breakdown too, but sorry, I don't work for you. Maybe you can find it. Too bad you can't access the training at Defense Ammunition Center, http://www.dactces.org/ it is for Government and Contractors only. Of course you could search the term Insensitive Munitions and get some sort of an education. It is a vast field, huge, gigantically huge, and it is right in front of you. Research is easy, I just typed 303 paki, hangfires, and a destroyed thumb into Google and in one click found the thread from which I extracted that picture and post. Simple beyond belief.

This is open source:

Ammunition Surveillance Procedures SB 742-1


https://acc.dau.mil/adl/en-US/723535/file/82862/DA PAM 742-1 22 Nov 16.pdf

Chapter 13 Propellant and Propelling Charges

page 13-1

WARNING

Nitrocellulose-based propellant can become thermally unstable as the age. The normal aging process of the propellants involves deterioration of the nitrocellulose with an accompanying generation of heat. At some point, the propellant may reach a state where heat is generated faster than it can be dissipated. The accumulation of heat can lead to combustion (autoignition). Chemical stabilizers are added to propellants to slow the aging process. In time, the stabilizer levels will drop to a point where the remaining effective stabilizer (RES) is not sufficient to prevent an accelerating rate of decomposition. When this point is reached, the propellant may autoigniet, with possible catastrophic results to property and life. Monitoring the stability level of each propellant lot is essential for continued safe storage.

Page 13-5 , Table 13.2 Propellant Stability Codes.

Stability Category A 0.30 or more Percent Effective Stabilizer

Acceptable stabilizer loss: safe for continued storage

C 0.29-0.20 Percent Effective Stabilizer

Significant stabilizer loss. Lot does not represent an immediate hazard, but is approaching a potentially hazardous stability condition. Loss of stabilizer does adversely affect function in an uploaded configuration. Disposition instructions will be furnished by NAR. All stability category “C” assests on the installation must be reported in writing…

One year after becoming stability category “C” a sample of the bulk propellant lot or the bulk-packed component lot will be retested. If the lot has not deteriorated to category “D”, it will be retested each year until it has been expended, or it has deteriorated to category “D”, at which point it will be demilitarized within 60 days.

D Less than 0.20 Percent Effective Stabilizer

Unacceptable stabilizer loss. Lots identified as stability category “D” present a potential safety hazard and are unsafe for continued storage as bulk, bulk-packed components , or as separate loading propellant chargers. Bulk propellant, bulk –packed components and separate loading propelling charges will be demilitarized within 60 days after notification of category “D” status.




Propellant Management Guide

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/prop_guide.pdf


2-2. DEFINITION: STABILIZERS

STABILIZERS are chemical ingredients added to propellant to prevent autoignition during the the propellant's expected useful life. ..

EXPLANATION: As nitrate ester-based propellants decompose, they release nitrogen oxides. If the nitrogen oxides are left free to react in the propellant, they can react with the nitrate ester, causing further decomposition and additional release of nitrogen oxides. The reaction between the nitrate ester and the nitrogen oxides is exothermic, i.e. the reaction produces heat. The exothermic nature of the reaction creates a problem if sufficient heat is generated to initiate combustion. Chemical additives, referred to as stabilizers , are added to propellant formulations to react with free nitrogen oxides to prevent their attack on the nitrate esters in the propellant. The stabilizers are scavengers that act rather like sponges, and once they become “saturated” they are no longer able to remove nitrogen oxides from the propellant. At this point self-heating of the propellant can occur unabated. Once begun, the self-heating may become sufficient to cause autoignition




I looked at your URL.

Small arms ammunition refers to the complete round/cartridge or its components, including bullets or projectiles, cartridge cases, primers/caps and propellants that are used in small arms.


Deterioration of high explosives is not relivent to this conversation.


Now you are arguing definitions. Right? Here is a definition of high explosives:

https://www.lanl.gov/museum/news/newsletter/2017/2017-04/high-explosives.php

High explosives consist of materials that typically combine the reacting elements in the same molecule. This allows them to react much faster, and they “detonate.” Detonation involves supersonic shock waves that pass through the material, causing chemistry that happens quite a bit faster than burning. High explosives do not need to be contained to make their bang. Nitroglycerine, trinitrotoluene, and RDX are high explosives. Los Alamos National Laboratory is engaged in important research into high explosives and has been recognized for making them environmentally cleaner and more stable, which means safer.


Incidentally, double based powders have nitroglycerine in them, but the powders we use are better called smokeless propellants. And I am much more knowledgeable about the deterioration of smokeless propellants than high explosives. This is from a DA Pamphlet, and the deterioration of high explosives is its own involved field of study

OiRlZWm.jpg


But, lets say your warhead has TNT, RDX, etc in it. What is in the can that the warhead is attached to? What moves the warhead from one spot on the earth to another? You know, it is the same stuff, with slightly different herbs and spices, as what is in a small arms cartridge case.[/I]
 
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Hey I finally got you to directly respond! Answer me this ,how much personal experience do you have with surplus ammo? How many guns have you personally seen blow up from old ammo? I’ve personally fired thousands of rounds and HAVE encountered problems.Ive also had discussions with people that have decades of experience. Where does your experience come from? I’m here to learn and really would like your personal insight. The vaguely condescending comments are really not necessary.
 
In a bolt gun I will tear down the bolt as well....in an automatic it is a bit more complex.

Modern powders are so clean anymore your described method is what I do now....unless it is rim fire.


NO surplus ammo is going to be as good as you can make it.
Like I said before, Some people are doing it wrong. We all know that when a round is fires in a rifle (We'er talking Bolt Action) the cartridge case expands to form a seal and the bullet and hot gases go down the barrel and out the muzzle. When the round is extracted is when the bolt face is exposed to very little, if any salts. So there is no need to tear down the bolt. The only time this is necessary is if you have a pierced primer, or ruptured case.

Surplus has zero place for me.....it is not as accurate as the stuff you make, perhaps you like to shoot and have one go here and the other go there....I myself like to hit what I aim at.
So why even post in a topic about a sale on Surplus ammo. ???
I know that many people don't shoot surplus ammo, but some of us do. I have had surplus ammo the preformed so so and I have had some that preformed great. I shot my first DCM match years ago with a 1916 Spanish Mauser chambered in 7.62x51 NATO . I used surplus South American ammo and took first place in the unclassified category where I was shooting against guys that had M1 Garands.
I also don't just try to shoot tiny groups on paper with surplus rifles. I like shooting water jugs and bowling pins. I also find it fun just to shoot some of my old rifles.
 
Hey I finally got you to directly respond! Answer me this ,how much personal experience do you have with surplus ammo? How many guns have you personally seen blow up from old ammo? I’ve personally fired thousands of rounds and HAVE encountered problems.Ive also had discussions with people that have decades of experience. Where does your experience come from? I’m here to learn and really would like your personal insight. The vaguely condescending comments are really not necessary.

What level of education do you have? High School, College? Are you an Art History major or do you have a degree in Science, Technology, Engineering and Math?

Keep shooting that old stuff and one day, and like a friend of mine, you will blow the top cover! My friend was shooting 1950’s Yugo 8mm through his machine guns and had blown the top cover twice with the stuff. He to had been educated to think that ammunition is immortal, but after a short discussion of gunpowder deterioration, he began to understand the risks. He was a manufacturer of machine guns, so he could rebuild the things as long as the registered part was not ruined. Incidentally, for those with machine guns, you blow the thing apart, and the registered part with it, you don’t get a new machine gun back from the BATF. You are going to have to go out and buy a whole new one. What is the price of a machine gun now? Twenty thousand, to one hundred thousand? Worth shooting cheap surplus ammunition with known issues?

This old lady smoked cigarettes and lived a hundred years. That proves that smoking is not only not dangerous, it is positively beneficial!

mnn8kwq.jpg


I found out about old gunpowder the old fashion way, high pressures!. Luckily I bumped into a Naval Weapons Insensitive Munitions expert and found out why my surplus 4895 was giving the occasional sticky extraction, even after cutting loads. It was like I bumped into an invisible mountain, bigger than the Himalayas and it had been right in front of me all the time. The good thing for me is, I can self educate. I can type in something into Google and do a search. Not everyone can do that you know.

No doubt you have heard of Agnotology: “the study of culturally induced ignorance or doubt. “. So why don’t you know, what you don’t know? Why don’t you know that gunpowder ages, and as it ages, it gets worse? Why don’t you know this?

I have written extensively on the problems of old ammunition:

Enfield extraction problems

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/enfield-extraction-problems.853036/#post-11165247

Old Ammo

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/old-ammo.842597/page-2#post-10948598

Oldest Ammunition you'd carry

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/oldest-ammo-youd-carry.830197/page-3#post-10721487

Ammo storage

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/ammo-storage.826681/#post-10655

I found out about British Battleships that blew up due to deteriorating cordite:

The inquiry board concluded that HMS Vanguard blew up due to spontaneous combustion of cordite in the magazines:

Disaster in Harbour: The Loss of HMS Vanguard

https://www.cnrs-scrn.org/northern_mariner/vol10/tnm_10_3_57-89.pdf

A number of other British warships had magazine explosions, not all due to cordite deterioration.

http://historyhubulster.co.uk/ww1-centenary-cordite-explosions/

The 1912 Naval Institute Proceedings, Volume 38 has a section on gunpowder and cordite deterioration.

https://books.google.com/books?id=5iRKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=cordite+deterioration&source=bl&ots=ZXJS6pYniY&sig=PUtgP8iwsS5j6SbCU8Jp9e0ZzMI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNvpq5wZXcAhUIEqwKHcG5BcAQ6AEIPjAF#v=onepage&q=cordite deterioration&f=false

Now this is when the stuff was new, or at least, not decades old. Not like the stuff in that Pakistani 303 Brit. (I assume it is Cordite) One major difference between today, and even WW2 ships, is air conditioning. Warships were made with little to no consideration for crew comfort and the interiors were not air conditioned. I suspect they were recirculating seawater in an attempt to control magazine temperatures. You would expect that ammunition magazines did get hot, and that would age gunpowder. The fact that so much attention was given to recording and measuring magazine temperatures, and the improvement in cordite management after the HMS Vanguard blow up, give a clue to the instability issues of those early smokeless propellants.

The current Navy has a vigorous Insensitive Munitions program. It makes sense when you consider the Navy carries its munitions on board, and if a munitions goes off, everyone on the ship, including the ship, is at risk. That is a major reason for all that web education you see with the Armed Forces. They cannot afford to allow ignorance, indolence, and indifference to cost them a Capital ship. So, they hire smart people and train them into Professionals, who then go through their stock piles and get the old crap out. And if you notice, DoD is not selling surplus powders to the public, like they did in the 1990’s. Too many houses burnt down, for one thing, and they noticed. I talked with a guy who used to sell military surplus powders and the regulations now require that the powder from demilled ammunition is not released to the public.
 
Like I said before, Some people are doing it wrong. We all know that when a round is fires in a rifle (We'er talking Bolt Action) the cartridge case expands to form a seal and the bullet and hot gases go down the barrel and out the muzzle. When the round is extracted is when the bolt face is exposed to very little, if any salts. So there is no need to tear down the bolt. The only time this is necessary is if you have a pierced primer, or ruptured case.


So why even post in a topic about a sale on Surplus ammo. ???
I know that many people don't shoot surplus ammo, but some of us do. I have had surplus ammo the preformed so so and I have had some that preformed great. I shot my first DCM match years ago with a 1916 Spanish Mauser chambered in 7.62x51 NATO . I used surplus South American ammo and took first place in the unclassified category where I was shooting against guys that had M1 Garands.
I also don't just try to shoot tiny groups on paper with surplus rifles. I like shooting water jugs and bowling pins. I also find it fun just to shoot some of my old rifles.

So tell me why the bolt face of the mosin I bought looked like it was stuck in the ground for six months.....all that gas never touches the bolt right.

As to why post in here to try to steer people away from a choice that is no longer worth looking at. As stated in this thread by another poster there are non corrosive options available....the days of .02 cents per round are gone.

All the issues they bring with them....and in your own words:

Most of it was sold off as surplus because weapons were changed and the ammo was no longer needed or it had passed it's shelf life to be considered 100% reliable for military use.

Most.....define most.......reliable....define reliable.

If the great and well equipped army of __________ has made the decision that this stuff is not worth the trouble.....is it worth your trouble.....doubt it.

Like I said before this is not 20 years ago when this stuff was 20 years younger.....this is old stuff stored god only knows how, that the selling country has said this stuff is too crappy for our crappy army....it is not even worth hanging onto for a SHTF type deal.....so lets sell it to americans that want to save a buck on their ammo while they go to starbucks for a $5 coffee.

Penny wise and pound foolish.
 
Really? I can say with confidence that total quantity of munitions, and the reasons why a half million tons of US munitions are in the queue to be demilled, are totally unknown to you.

View attachment 853181

In a 2008 article, DoD was budgeted $2 Billion a year to demill its stockpile, and that amount of money was insufficient to decease the quantity of dangerous munitions accumulating every year. The stockpile of munitions requiring demilling was actually increasing every year. It costs big money to monitor, collect, ship, demill the stuff before it gets to be so unstable, it explodes in place

I highly suspect that you probably only think of small arms cartridges as military munitions, but there are around 7000 DODIC numbers, this Marine Corp Yellowbook shows some of the items and their associated numbers. I don't have a break out of the percentage of the stockpile that are small arms ammunition, but I have read in other presentations, that by weight, it is a significant amount. At least 50%.

As I wrote earlier, the cost of demilling is very expensive, and second world countries like Pakistan don't have that money. I am certain you are unaware of any blown Pakistani ammunition dumps, but there have been some big ones. Pakistan, like most second and third world countries don't have the money to demill their old, dangerous, munitions. Ammunition dumps in these poor countries have the unfortunate habit of exploding due to the instable state of their deteriorated munitions But, some nation states have found that you, the American consumer, will happily buy this stuff. The consumer does not know better, doesn't want to know any better, assumes that it is good, that it is perfectly safe, because that's what they want to believe. I am going to state that neither of us were in the decision loop when the Pakistanis removed these from inventory, but you came up with your own reasons, based on the story theme that "it has to be good because it is cheap"! Have you considered it was removed because of the problems due to reduction-oxidation of nitrocellulose? I am going to claim the Pakistanis removed these from their inventory because they finally decided it was too risky to keep in storage, and you, were willing to pay cash for the stuff.

I reject the idea that ammunition that hangfires is not dangerous to the user. American civilians are free to blow themselves up in any way they want, and the cost of their repair is going to come out of their own individual pockets. The costs will be settled between you, the hospital, and the insurance company. And if your insurance sucks, you are going to find out that hospitalization is incredibly expensive. Nation states have the liability for caring for their soldiers. That is, it costs them money, its part of the social compact. I am going to claim that issuing 303 ammunition that has a known hangfire problem is going to injury someone at some time in the future. I had no idea the standard for hangfires was 30 seconds. Where did that come from? Why is 30 seconds good, but 15 seconds bad? Was 30 seconds picked because the guy whose gun blew up waited 10-15 seconds? Was that the basis? What about 29 seconds? Why is 29 seconds to open the mechanism bad, but 30 seconds good?

You think that maybe if that stuff was fired in an automatic weapon, that maybe ammunition that gave hangfires might explode as a soldier ejects the round? Will every Soldier wait 30 seconds, not 29 seconds, to eject a misfire? There are some automatic weapon designs, like rotary weapons, that keep on going even if the round hangfires. That could cause problems. In fact, I read this as a risk for advanced primer ignition mechanisms. The Oerlikon was the most popular 20mm machine cannon of WW2, and ammunition stocks were kept around til Vietnam, and it was an advanced primer ignition weapon. A hangfire would probably blow the breech mechanism, and do so in front of the user.

I just found this, and it was interesting, don't dismiss the stuff about munitions instability and deterioration.

Logistics: An Explosive Cold War Scandal
https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htlog/articles/20180603.aspx#foo
We are talking about small arms ammo. In fact we were talking about 303 British Surplus ammo.
The topic was not about the good or bad about surplus ammo or what and how the military disposes of it.
This topic started off about a sale on 303 Surplus ammo, in case there was someone looking for some. I did not start it so that you could get on your soap box to preach the evils of old ammo.
 
We are talking about small arms ammo. In fact we were talking about 303 British Surplus ammo.
The topic was not about the good or bad about surplus ammo or what and how the military disposes of it.
This topic started off about a sale on 303 Surplus ammo, in case there was someone looking for some. I did not start it so that you could get on your soap box to preach the evils of old ammo.

Your right.....and my position is don't bother......I guess you are on the soap box saying how fantastic old ammo is and that there is not that much risk in using it.....as you did start the thread.
 
There is some good information in this thread along with a bit of preaching and ruffled feathers. The takeaway for me is a. Do your due diligence when obtaining aged surplus, to put cost and benefit in perspective; b. Use proper technique and inspect firearms, ammunition and empties promptly to identify problems; and c. There is apparently a lot of tax money spent to insure that we do not have access to aged US small arms ammunition.

I have fired and retain a few cases and cans of old soviet ammo, as well as commercial ammo more than 40 years old. I have had no problems with hangfires or duds other than 22LR, but have avoided old 303 because it was erosive as well as corrosive, even without the known POF problems. Know the risks and do as you wish.
 
So tell me why the bolt face of the mosin I bought looked like it was stuck in the ground for six months.....all that gas never touches the bolt right.

As to why post in here to try to steer people away from a choice that is no longer worth looking at. As stated in this thread by another poster there are non corrosive options available....the days of .02 cents per round are gone.

All the issues they bring with them....and in your own words:

Most of it was sold off as surplus because weapons were changed and the ammo was no longer needed or it had passed it's shelf life to be considered 100% reliable for military use.

Most.....define most.......reliable....define reliable.

If the great and well equipped army of __________ has made the decision that this stuff is not worth the trouble.....is it worth your trouble.....doubt it.

Like I said before this is not 20 years ago when this stuff was 20 years younger.....this is old stuff stored god only knows how, that the selling country has said this stuff is too crappy for our crappy army....it is not even worth hanging onto for a SHTF type deal.....so lets sell it to americans that want to save a buck on their ammo while they go to starbucks for a $5 coffee.

Penny wise and pound foolish.
I did point out that there is neew ammo that sells for $0.80 a round. and someone also pointed out that Wolf makes 303 now.
You bought a Mosin with a pitted bolt face. Did it come from an importer or was it used by someone here in the states before you got it? My bet would be that you bought it after someone improperly cleaned it.
I have passed on many surplus rifles over the years that were neglected after shooting corrosive ammo.
I have been shooting surplus ammo for over 30 years and in those 30 years I have seen more ammo related problems from reloaded ammo.
The part about ammo that was no longer needed, is when different caliber weapons are adopted the old ammo and weapons were sold off as surplus. The part about, considered 100% reliable for military use. The military has a shelf life on ammo. Once it passes that shelf life it is either set aside for training or sold off as surplus.
I remember being issued 50 cal ammo in the late 80's that was dated in the 50's. During the Gulf War we were issued ammo that was dated late 80's.
If things have not changed over the last few years, the US no longer sales ammo as surplus. It has to be broken down and sold as components. Thus ending the supply of cheap US surplus ammo.

CMP sold surplus 30-06 ammo and I didn't see anyone on the forum complaining about how unsafe it was.o_O
 
What level of education do you have? High School, College? Are you an Art History major or do you have a degree in Science, Technology, Engineering and Math?

Keep shooting that old stuff and one day, and like a friend of mine, you will blow the top cover! My friend was shooting 1950’s Yugo 8mm through his machine guns and had blown the top cover twice with the stuff. He to had been educated to think that ammunition is immortal, but after a short discussion of gunpowder deterioration, he began to understand the risks. He was a manufacturer of machine guns, so he could rebuild the things as long as the registered part was not ruined. Incidentally, for those with machine guns, you blow the thing apart, and the registered part with it, you don’t get a new machine gun back from the BATF. You are going to have to go out and buy a whole new one. What is the price of a machine gun now? Twenty thousand, to one hundred thousand? Worth shooting cheap surplus ammunition with known issues?

This old lady smoked cigarettes and lived a hundred years. That proves that smoking is not only not dangerous, it is positively beneficial!

View attachment 853193


I found out about old gunpowder the old fashion way, high pressures!. Luckily I bumped into a Naval Weapons Insensitive Munitions expert and found out why my surplus 4895 was giving the occasional sticky extraction, even after cutting loads. It was like I bumped into an invisible mountain, bigger than the Himalayas and it had been right in front of me all the time. The good thing for me is, I can self educate. I can type in something into Google and do a search. Not everyone can do that you know.

No doubt you have heard of Agnotology: “the study of culturally induced ignorance or doubt. “. So why don’t you know, what you don’t know? Why don’t you know that gunpowder ages, and as it ages, it gets worse? Why don’t you know this?

I have written extensively on the problems of old ammunition:

Enfield extraction problems

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/enfield-extraction-problems.853036/#post-11165247

Old Ammo

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/old-ammo.842597/page-2#post-10948598

Oldest Ammunition you'd carry

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/oldest-ammo-youd-carry.830197/page-3#post-10721487

Ammo storage

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/ammo-storage.826681/#post-10655

I found out about British Battleships that blew up due to deteriorating cordite:

The inquiry board concluded that HMS Vanguard blew up due to spontaneous combustion of cordite in the magazines:

Disaster in Harbour: The Loss of HMS Vanguard

https://www.cnrs-scrn.org/northern_mariner/vol10/tnm_10_3_57-89.pdf

A number of other British warships had magazine explosions, not all due to cordite deterioration.

http://historyhubulster.co.uk/ww1-centenary-cordite-explosions/

The 1912 Naval Institute Proceedings, Volume 38 has a section on gunpowder and cordite deterioration.

https://books.google.com/books?id=5iRKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=cordite+deterioration&source=bl&ots=ZXJS6pYniY&sig=PUtgP8iwsS5j6SbCU8Jp9e0ZzMI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNvpq5wZXcAhUIEqwKHcG5BcAQ6AEIPjAF#v=onepage&q=cordite deterioration&f=false

Now this is when the stuff was new, or at least, not decades old. Not like the stuff in that Pakistani 303 Brit. (I assume it is Cordite) One major difference between today, and even WW2 ships, is air conditioning. Warships were made with little to no consideration for crew comfort and the interiors were not air conditioned. I suspect they were recirculating seawater in an attempt to control magazine temperatures. You would expect that ammunition magazines did get hot, and that would age gunpowder. The fact that so much attention was given to recording and measuring magazine temperatures, and the improvement in cordite management after the HMS Vanguard blow up, give a clue to the instability issues of those early smokeless propellants.

The current Navy has a vigorous Insensitive Munitions program. It makes sense when you consider the Navy carries its munitions on board, and if a munitions goes off, everyone on the ship, including the ship, is at risk. That is a major reason for all that web education you see with the Armed Forces. They cannot afford to allow ignorance, indolence, and indifference to cost them a Capital ship. So, they hire smart people and train them into Professionals, who then go through their stock piles and get the old crap out. And if you notice, DoD is not selling surplus powders to the public, like they did in the 1990’s. Too many houses burnt down, for one thing, and they noticed. I talked with a guy who used to sell military surplus powders and the regulations now require that the powder from demilled ammunition is not released to the public.[/QUOT

Really? You are piece of work. You wanting to make things personal by questioning my education and intelligence is low. I really wanted to hear your first hand experiences without the smartass remarks. Sorry, I don’t have time to sit around and surf the internet all day. I’m done here, since you are incapable of having a rational discussion.
 
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I did point out that there is neew ammo that sells for $0.80 a round. and someone also pointed out that Wolf makes 303 now.
You bought a Mosin with a pitted bolt face. Did it come from an importer or was it used by someone here in the states before you got it? My bet would be that you bought it after someone improperly cleaned it.
I have passed on many surplus rifles over the years that were neglected after shooting corrosive ammo.
I have been shooting surplus ammo for over 30 years and in those 30 years I have seen more ammo related problems from reloaded ammo.
The part about ammo that was no longer needed, is when different caliber weapons are adopted the old ammo and weapons were sold off as surplus. The part about, considered 100% reliable for military use. The military has a shelf life on ammo. Once it passes that shelf life it is either set aside for training or sold off as surplus.
I remember being issued 50 cal ammo in the late 80's that was dated in the 50's. During the Gulf War we were issued ammo that was dated late 80's.
If things have not changed over the last few years, the US no longer sales ammo as surplus. It has to be broken down and sold as components. Thus ending the supply of cheap US surplus ammo.

CMP sold surplus 30-06 ammo and I didn't see anyone on the forum complaining about how unsafe it was.o_O

Importer.....still in cosmo and a rusty bolt face....guess Olga was thinking about her husbands head being used as a lamp shade when she applied the goop to that one.

As to another thing I remember 50 cal ammo being made in the 50's that blew up an M2......but again it was made in the 60's.

I will just end it with this......up to about 20-ish years ago I shot tons of the stuff as well.....but it seems that one of two things has happened....all the "better" stuff is used up and now we are getting stuff out of Africa, India, Pakistan....bla bla bla, and not from nato countries....even Turk.....or old Yugo stuff.....it seems that most stuff from europe is gone. The countries the stuff is coming from make those "less then prosperous" european countries look like they pave the streets with gold.....(turkey, yougoslava)

I think that the stuff that is coming in now....decades having sat in who knows what....is just not worth the risk......and the prices that are being asked for it just add more to that....we had a poster in this thread say that the cheapo wolf stuff is pennies more. On so many levels it is not worth it.....even a few sec hang fire is going to take the fun right out of whatever you are doing as you are likely not to hit a thing.....and it goes down from there.

My feathers are not ruffled.....I really don't care what you do.....just after you blow your thumb off don't let the media get a hold of you.....they would just love to run stories on guns blowing up.
 
Not really relevant to .303 surplus...
. I was watching a TV show a while back about the Royal Navy and allies trying to force a passage through the Dardanelle Straights in WW1. It was a debacle with many of the battleships hitting mines and sinking. In the show,modern day Turkish divers were diving on the wrecks. One diver came back up to the boat with a load of cordite sticks from the 12" guns. He held them over the side and lit the end with a lighter. It ignited with really intense flame and when he chucked it back in the water it was still burning below the water as it sank. It had been laying under salt water for 90 years.
 
I'm not sure what's causing all of those hang-fires but I do know that cordite is pretty stable stuff. It sometimes washes up on Boca Chica Beach near the mouth of the Rio Grande and has been known to surprise folks that are camping on the beach by making their camp fires flare up dramatically.
I've found a few strands while beachcombing - it looks like dirty spaghetti or minestrone, I've heard from locals that it tastes sweet, can be chewed like chewing gum, and that chewing the stuff can make you high.
I'm not that brave or that desperate to get high - It's also known to ignite if you get too rough with it.
So - don't try to fertilize your garden with left-over cordite.
It's too stable.
 
Importer.....still in cosmo and a rusty bolt face....guess Olga was thinking about her husbands head being used as a lamp shade when she applied the goop to that one.

As to another thing I remember 50 cal ammo being made in the 50's that blew up an M2......but again it was made in the 60's.

I will just end it with this......up to about 20-ish years ago I shot tons of the stuff as well.....but it seems that one of two things has happened....all the "better" stuff is used up and now we are getting stuff out of Africa, India, Pakistan....bla bla bla, and not from nato countries....even Turk.....or old Yugo stuff.....it seems that most stuff from europe is gone. The countries the stuff is coming from make those "less then prosperous" european countries look like they pave the streets with gold.....(turkey, yougoslava)

I think that the stuff that is coming in now....decades having sat in who knows what....is just not worth the risk......and the prices that are being asked for it just add more to that....we had a poster in this thread say that the cheapo wolf stuff is pennies more. On so many levels it is not worth it.....even a few sec hang fire is going to take the fun right out of whatever you are doing as you are likely not to hit a thing.....and it goes down from there.

My feathers are not ruffled.....I really don't care what you do.....just after you blow your thumb off don't let the media get a hold of you.....they would just love to run stories on guns blowing up.
Not every Surplus rifle that was shipped to importers was in the best of shape. But if bought as a good to very good condition rifle, it should have been sent back..
I just checked my Mosin parts to see if I had an extra bolt head that I could send you, but no luck, just have some bolt bodies and cocking pieces.

Surplus ammo is just like Surplus guns. They need to be inspected to make sure they are in good shape.
A little over a year ago I bought a fifty cal can full of 8mm Mauser pretty cheap. The guy said he was selling the ammo because he no longer had a rifle to shoot it in. The ammo was loose in the can but looked good. When I got it home, I found that only the ammo at the top of the can looked good. The rest was tarnished and there was some with corrosion on the bullets and primers.
I tumbled it to clean it up before I started pulling bullets. Here’s some pics I just took.
7595F05C-FD00-4AC3-8B0D-FC3E02725D9E.jpeg 28C523FC-DBEA-4EC6-BD2E-239AABF417BC.jpeg 1F724CB4-571A-4F7F-92E2-772B53A1FAB0.jpeg 8AAE6876-CB33-4E84-9D0F-FE707915AB3B.jpeg

I have about a lbs of powder that needs to go into the flowerbeds.
Of the primed cases I tested about half were week. Of the ones I pulled just a few had rust at the base of the bullet. Non of this ammo will be fired, but will be broken down for the bullets. I will most likely end up with about 3 to 4 cents in each bullet.
I have plenty of good clean Surplus ammo. Just in 8mm Mauser, I could fire 30 rounds a week for the next five years and still have some leftovers.
 
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GunnyUSMC:
My cleaning had changed, for removing corrosive primer residue.
Using wet patches seemed adequate the last few times I used corrosive ammo such as .303 or 8mm (Yugo). Patches made just as much sense, and there are still huge numbers of people who believe that they should use Windex.

This might have gained popularity and widespread credibility because Windex bottles are so easy to take to a shooting club, range etc., and most of the spray 'can' go into the chamber. The ammonia seemed to have acquired the best reputation.

Your info is nice to know, and I have only about 400 rds. of 7.62x39 (old Ulyanovsk in white/blue boxes) which could have a few corrosive primers.
Thanks for clarifying what is required.
 
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...This might have gained popularity and widespread credibility because Windex bottles are so easy to take to a shooting club, range etc., and most of the spray 'can' go into the chamber. The ammonia seemed to have acquired the best reputation. ...
I, personally, have long been a fan of the Windex at the range pre-clean. And I agree that the Ammonia-D version has been oft-touted for its "neutralizing" effects on the salt.

That said ...

The ammonia, specifically, doesn't do squat for the potassium chloride that you need to remove, it is the water in the Windex that draws it into solution for easy removal.

O'course, the cleaning action of the Windex does help in the overall pre-cleaning process.:)

Everyone should keep in mind that the actual mechanisn of the pre-clean is that the potassium chloride is drawn into water-solution and then is easily removed with that water-solution. If you just spray a little bit of water in there but the water only leaves the surface by evaporation the salt is still there ... and is already starting a rustfest.
 
Here’s a little story that is true. I discovered one of my Mosins in my collection had red rust in the bore.:eek: The thing is, I had never shot this rifle.o_O It had been sitting in my Mosin closet for about seven or more years. I had bought the rifle from Century Arms along with two others on a you fix em deal. I had ordered them as parts guns but ended up getting three complete guns.
This rifle only needed a trigger pin. It was a clean 1943 Izhevsk with a shiny bore.
A friend had been asking me about buying a Mosin so, I checked my inventory and found that I had two 1943 Izhevsk rifles. This was when I discovered the rust. The only reason for the rust that I can think of is that Century had sold the rifle and it was returned, and had not been properly cleaned.
How bad do you think the bore was after all those years of rusting? I decided to clean it to see if it could be saved. After tow days of scrubbing and soaking with CLP it looked pretty good. I then polished the bore with JB bore paste and ended up with bright lands and gray groves. The bolt face had just a little rust on it that cleaned up with little effort and steel wool. I then test fired the rifle and it functioned great.
I told my friend about the rust cleanup and that if he wanted the rifle he could have it for $200. He bought the rifle from me yesterday .
I guess you can say that this story has a happy ending. :)

Here is a tip about cleaning and shooting Surplus rifles, weather it’s with new are surplus ammo. If the bore of your rifle is not all bright and shiny, don’t clean the snot out of it. When you remove all the copper, or bimetal fowling, you expose all the tiny pits. You will find that when the bore is very clean it take a few rounds down range before it starts to shoot good.
So just give it a good cleaning, don’t use a copper solvent are other harsh cleaners and you will find that it will shoot better groups.
 
With the mildly-frosted-bore milsurps that I have bought over the years I have always started out by cleaning the bores down to steel in order to assure that there is no potassium chloride hiding under any of the accumulated jacket material and other crap. Probably a result of some mild OCD on my part. :)

Once I am at steel, I will spend some time shooting ammo with known-non-chlorate primers (and filling in, to some degree, those now-empty pits with my jacket material and other crap) to see if the grouping will tighten up a bit (often they do not).

After that I do not worry about copper removal or getting back down to 100% steel. ;)
 
What Gunny said about JP Bore Polish is the gospel truth, I've used it on old vintage O3A3's that I've come in contact with, that had terribly fouled bores however anywhere from 100-200 strokes with the JP Bore Polish made the bores look almost new, same with the Winchester Model 62 .22LR/L/Short, that is an excellent product.
 
Really? You are piece of work. You wanting to make things personal by questioning my education and intelligence is low. I really wanted to hear your first hand experiences without the smartass remarks. Sorry, I don’t have time to sit around and surf the internet all day. I’m done here, since you are incapable of having a rational discussion.

I do want to say that turned out very poorly and not at all how I intended. Sorry.

In so far as smart ass remarks, well, I was doing that. If I give you the title of a thread, the text of a post, and the forum, and you ask for a URL twice because you can't find it with a search, and won't try, well, I am not respectful towards those can't bait their own hook, so to say.

As for education questions, I could have written that better. I was trying to find what level of education you had. Lets say you have a STEM degree. Then, if I said that gunpowder follows the second law of thermodynamics, that is, it is breaking down from a high energy molecule to a low energy state the day it leaves the factory, and that the lifetime of the nitrocellulose molecule is 100% dependent on the stability of the double bonded nitro groups, you would understand what I am writing. I could also write that the temperature deterioration of nitrocellulose is accurately modeled by the Arrhenius equation. Even if the person had their own delusions about the immortality of gunpowder, along with the major of the shooting community, they could read this, see it does not conflict with their education or physical reality. But, lets say that I am dealing with someone who does not even know their color circles, the technical discussion would have to be dumbed down, if not discarded totally.

I do see I need to write more to contradict what I see as a "Thrift Shop" model of surplus ammunition. This is an ignorance based narrative of why surplus ammunition is on the market. And it goes, more or less, that Pakistan found all this unfashionable ammunition cluttering its closet and took it to the thrift shop, where you, lucky buyer, found it. Maybe a bit worn, maybe slightly used, maybe so 90's, but it has to be good because it is so cheap!

Maybe I will write up something later.
 
I do want to say that turned out very poorly and not at all how I intended. Sorry.

In so far as smart ass remarks, well, I was doing that. If I give you the title of a thread, the text of a post, and the forum, and you ask for a URL twice because you can't find it with a search, and won't try, well, I am not respectful towards those can't bait their own hook, so to say.

As for education questions, I could have written that better. I was trying to find what level of education you had. Lets say you have a STEM degree. Then, if I said that gunpowder follows the second law of thermodynamics, that is, it is breaking down from a high energy molecule to a low energy state the day it leaves the factory, and that the lifetime of the nitrocellulose molecule is 100% dependent on the stability of the double bonded nitro groups, you would understand what I am writing. I could also write that the temperature deterioration of nitrocellulose is accurately modeled by the Arrhenius equation. Even if the person had their own delusions about the immortality of gunpowder, along with the major of the shooting community, they could read this, see it does not conflict with their education or physical reality. But, lets say that I am dealing with someone who does not even know their color circles, the technical discussion would have to be dumbed down, if not discarded totally.

I do see I need to write more to contradict what I see as a "Thrift Shop" model of surplus ammunition. This is an ignorance based narrative of why surplus ammunition is on the market. And it goes, more or less, that Pakistan found all this unfashionable ammunition cluttering its closet and took it to the thrift shop, where you, lucky buyer, found it. Maybe a bit worn, maybe slightly used, maybe so 90's, but it has to be good because it is so cheap!

Maybe I will write up something later.
You still never answered any of the questions that Bitrclngr asked.
But you have come back to this topic to let us know how smart you are by using all the big words and then insult those of us that have been shooting surplus ammo for many years.
Like I said before, this topic was not started for you to shout from your soapbox about the evils of surplus ammo.
But then there are those people that can't help but insult those that don't agree with them.
 
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