.308 Battle Rifle Poll

[Z-Michigan]

OP, barrel length primarily affects velocity, not accuracy. In fact shorter barrels are often more accurate, but it's a complicated subject. To answer your M1A question, an 18" barrel is available with the "Scout Squad" model, which gets terrific reviews from almost anyone who has one. The 16" SOCOM models do not get equally good reviews. IMHO 18" is a pretty good compromise length for a semiauto .308 rifle.

Greg, we'll agree to disagree. I've read Vickers' comments and I certainly don't have the experience he has. But it is quite well established that one dent in the stamped sheetmetal upper will hang up the carrier group and disable the gun at least temporarily. And, FWIW, Vickers ultimately comes out praising the FAL well above the others.

http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/battle-rifles/

I could also go on about the greater than He-Man cocking effort of the PTR-91 (HK91 clone), the difficulty in mounting a scope that makes mounting a scope on an FAL or M1A look like a breeze, the incredibly front-heavy weight distribution, the lack of a last-shot hold open, the horrible mag release on the neutered US-market models, the OEM furniture that would embarrass an Airsofter (at least on a PTR-91 with a fixed buttstock), the thumb safety that is perfectly sized for people with XXXXXXXXXL size hands*, the already mentioned heavy trigger pull, the tiny little pretend-match sights on a rifle that is basically a western AKM, etc. etc...

[*I wear an XL or 2XL men's glove - the thumb safety was still in a different zip code.]
And I'm a former owner, and mine actually functioned 100% unlike the ones I keep reading about recently.

 

[fragout]

spartanpride,

Barrel length in and of itself effects muzzle velocity. The M1A is a semiautomatic rifle, which equates to moving parts while firing. If the parts fit well/as should, then they will move while firing at a consistent rate, which will effect consistent shooting. Bedding the action is another way to make a given rifle more consistent. Barrel thickness usually will produce better accuracy , the thicker you go.
(Note: There is more to it, but would take alot of time to explain in detail, but hopefully you get the idea.)

An M1A standard,loaded,NM, SM, and M25 all sport 22in bbls, from the std weight on up to a heavy weight bbl. OAL = 44inches. The 2 M1A rifles I posted pics of earlier are both M1A Bush rifles with 18.5in std contour non chrome lined, 1/11in twist rate bbls.(note: A Scout is very similar to the Bush model with addition of scout mount, and a muzzle brake instead of flash hider) The Socom16/II rifles sport 16in tubes....

A comparison pic of all 3 lengths...



The rifle pictured above is a custom build M14 "Tanker", built off of an M14S Norinco receiver, and uses a Criterion 18.5in chrome line std contour bbl. Parts for the build were carefully selected and/or NIW, and the synthetic USGI stock was "fitted", to the action instead of fully bedded to cut down on the weight some, and keep it as reliable as possible. The OAL of this rifle is an inch shorter than a Bush or Scout model, due to the SEI Vortex DC flash hider in combination with the gas lock front sight. (Also does away with the whole castle nut "front end", which amounts to less little parts that can ..."go wrong".)

11B

 

[garyhan]

M1A. National Match grade.

gary

 

[Greg Bell]

Z,

I agree, Larry likes the FAL. But he acknowledges that the G3 is the most robust--which is what you took issue with.

As far as "greater than he-man" cocking effort. It is not the case on the Hk91, Springfield SAR-3,8 or any PTR I have shot or handled.

Scoping the M1A is most certainly not a breeze. The Springfield receivers are often out of spec, requiring a special set of pins to see exactly what scope mount you need. I spent a lot of time and hassle trying to scope my old Springfield Scout (with a quality mount, not cheap junk). I remember sitting around with the Sadlak pin kit, a micrometer and engineering drawings thinking something other than "this is a breeze."

Scoping the FAL is easier, but none of the options are particularly great. There is a reason that you saw the G3 and its progeny used as sniper weapons and the FAL not so much. The G3 is very easy to scope. The STANAG claw mounts are extraordinarily durable, and very easy to mount. And there are quite a few other aftermarket options, B&T, etc.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Barrel length in and of itself effects muzzle velocity. The M1A is a semiautomatic rifle, which equates to moving parts while firing. If the parts fit well/as should, then they will move while firing at a consistent rate, which will effect consistent shooting.

I've read many times about the US Ordnance Bureau tests showing that an M1 Garand op-rod didn't start moving until the bullet was something like 70 feet out of the muzzle. In any gas-operated gun the mechanism can't start moving until the bullet passes the gas port, and even though it has the potential to start moving at that point, the velocity of the gas, the need to build up pressure on the piston (or inside the carrier on an AR), and the inertia of the moving metal parts will all keep the bolt firmly locked, and any other movement imperceptible, until long after the bullet has departed.

Recoil and blowback guns are potentially a different story, but even with those the inertia of the bolt group parts is such that no significant movement occurs while the bullet is still in the barrel. Of course (*cough*) the roller delay mechanism, when applied to a high pressure cartridge like .308, is potentially the worst for this concern - but even with those parameters I'm not aware of it being an issue so long as the correct cam (locking piece) is used and the rollers are in spec.

However, any gas-piston design attaches some rigid pieces to the barrel, and that can mess up the barrel harmonics and affect accuracy. Hence the most accurate rifles available tend not to be gas piston designs - they are either bolt action guns with free floated barrels or AR-10/15 pattern guns where the thin little gas tube apparently has no real effect on barrel harmonics (based on how common and easy it is to make a sub-MOA AR type).

The other big variable is precision of locking. Generally speaking, rotary bolt mechanisms (AR, M1A) are more precise and repeatable than tilting or sliding mechanisms (FAL, SKS, sort of the G3). But every rule has its exception, and a good FAL or SKS can be much more accurate than a run of the mill AKM despite the latter's rotating bolt that functions just like an M1A bolt.

 

[Carne Frio]

I'll go with the H&K 91 that I have had and used since 1979.
It had a trigger job by Williams Trigger Specialties and is
accurate and reliable with reloads and surplus ammo.

 

[GPWASR10]

Lr-308.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I agree, Larry likes the FAL. But he acknowledges that the G3 is the most robust--which is what you took issue with.

I'm not reading strong endorsement of the G3 from his little article, but I guess we'd have to ask him to know for sure.

As far as "greater than he-man" cocking effort. It is not the case on the Hk91, Springfield SAR-3,8 or any PTR I have shot or handled.

All I can say is that my PTR-91 was purchased brand new, kept lubricated and never displayed any mechanical problems, and yet if you dropped the hammer on an empty chamber (i.e. dry fired) then the effort to cock the gun was enormous. I say this as someone of near linebacker size who does farming as a hobby and regularly carries 100lbs or more of stuff (hay, grain, farm implements) by hand. If I did 5 minutes of dry-firing practice with the PTR I would often have pain in my left wrist and shoulder for several days afterward. YMMV. I have not tried this with other PTRs or an HK, but I have read many reports of other people having the same issue with the design.

Scoping the M1A is most certainly not a breeze. The Springfield receivers are often out of spec, requiring a special set of pins to see exactly what scope mount you need. I spent a lot of time and hassle trying to scope my old Springfield Scout (with a quality mount, not cheap junk). I remember sitting around with the Sadlak pin kit, a micrometer and engineering drawings thinking something other than "this is a breeze."
Scoping the FAL is easier, but none of the options are particularly great. There is a reason that you saw the G3 and its progeny used as sniper weapons and the FAL not so much. The G3 is very easy to scope. The STANAG claw mounts are extraordinarily durable, and very easy to mount. And there are quite a few other aftermarket options, B&T, etc.

No argument on the issues with the M1A and FAL. If you want to scope, a flattop AR is so far beyond all other options that there's no real comparison. I had a personal experience with a scope mount on the PTR-91 I owned. The PTR supposedly has ultra-precise CNC cuts for the scope mount. Yeah, it didn't fit well. I suppose with an hour or two of filing and hand-fitting it might work, but did I mention the AR flattop?

By the way, who besides Germany has used the G3 as a sniper rifle?

 

[rozziboy18]

ar-10 hands down, the fal second both are great arms

 

[Greg Bell]

Z,

Larry adores the FAL. No doubt. He hates the G3's ergos. He says that the G3 doesn't start popping up on the top of his list until you are talking about doomsday conditions (which is what inspired my atomic Eastern Front reference).

Cocking effort.
think your gun was out of spec. The worst thing about cocking the G3 is how it can be annoying to get your fingers under the handle. After that, it shouldn't be a problem for anyone. And given your comments about other issues with your PTR (cheap furniture, out of spec scope rails) I am thinking you have (perfectly reasonably) formed a negative opinion based on your experience with an out-of-spec clone lemon.

Scoping.

On this we are in full agreement. The G3 is easier to scope than the FAL or M1A. But nothing beats the AR for ease of scoping. Of course, this is presuming we are talking about newer guns. The old fixed handle AR guns were miserable to scope. The Norwegians and Swedes, however, now weld Pic rails on their HKs so that they can mount current optics as easily as ARs. But those are obviously not available to civilians without custom gunsmithing.

 

[spartanpride]

Ok I was just thinking that a shorter barrel (ie a 16 or 18 inch rather than the 22 inch) would mess up barrel harmonics, but I guess not. That M1A scout model with the 18 inch barrel has really got me interested, as well as the AR-10. They seem like my best two choices. But also isn't the HK 91 bbl free-floated because the triple ring sight is soldered onto the cocking tube and floats around the barrel, because I don't believe the handguard touches the bbl either. Another con to the 91 is it's fluted chamber, which from what I hear weakens brass and reduces the amount of times it can be reloaded.

 

[fragout]

www.lrbarms.com

check out thier M25 receiver.

May be an option to some that are lookin for an "easier" way to mount optics to this kinda rifle, and is just as easy to do as an AR10 IMO.

I have also found that the chicom receivers (Norinco/Polytech) are gtg when it comes to using quality mounts such as SEI, Sadlak, and the ARMS#18....
Others milage may vary.

hopefully, this will give you an example of how an ARMS #18 should look like when mounted.

I have not had any scope mount issues with the few SAI rifles that I have, but I hear alot about others who do.

11B

 

[fragout]

Z-Michigan,you are correct. I could have worded that a little better.

 

[GunsBeerFreedom]

In order

Saiga
FAL
RFB

 

[Welding Rod]

As always;

For optics: AR

No optics: M1A

 

[Expertowgunner]

For me:
Scoped/dmr role:AR-10/sr-25 (yes ive been lucky enough to shoot the real sr-25)
Battle rifle:FAL hands down

Ive owned a ptr and while i liked it for its cheap parts, mags, and overall accuracy it had horrible ergos. As far as the m1a is concerned i think its one of the most overated 308 ebrs ever made (dear god what have i done, ive commited the ultimate sin). Heavy in standard format, notoriously hard to scope and KEEP zeroed, and for us civies mags are the most expensive out of all of them. Ive got 2 high school friends and both ended up either as a marine corp dmr and one is attached to the 101st in the army as a sniper. They both love their m24 and m40 and the bud in army loves his m110 (ar-10) but the marine kinda loves his m14 says as long as he keeps it zeroed it runs fine and army friend doesnt like it at all.

 

[hiho]

a shortened fal clone called DSA-58OSW

 

[Zerodefect]

AR-10 or better yet the LMT .308 $$$ or Larue OBR $$$$$. Got all the reliability bugs worked out and Magpul PMags for them now! I'm looking hard at an AR-10T. I'm hopeing the LMT .308 drops to $2000 even next year.....

The M1's I've handled were slow and heavy and broke alot. I'm a try it before I buy it guy, so I still don't have an M1 because of this. And how in the world do you get a decent scope setup on one??

 

[Z-Michigan]

Cocking effort.
think your gun was out of spec. The worst thing about cocking the G3 is how it can be annoying to get your fingers under the handle. After that, it shouldn't be a problem for anyone. And given your comments about other issues with your PTR (cheap furniture, out of spec scope rails) I am thinking you have (perfectly reasonably) formed a negative opinion based on your experience with an out-of-spec clone lemon.

I'll have to try out another G3 or PTR when I get a chance and see. I've only handled the one (again, brand new and it ran) so perhaps it was out of spec. My understanding is that bolt gap makes all the difference in "locking" strength/effort.

and for us civies mags are the most expensive out of all of them

No longer true. Get all the USGI 20rd M14 mags you want at 44mag.com for $21.50 each, now, a year ago, a year from now. Also Taiwan T57 mags for $17 at keepshooting.com and functional Korean knockoffs for $10-15 at various places.

.308 AR mags are also generally affordable now, with the functional CP mags for the DPMS design available for $15 each. Armalite type mags are still $27.50+, unfortunately.

FAL mags have gone way up in price and good condition FAL mags are now $18+, not the $5 and under they used to be.

G3 mags are still the cheapest, but the supply is drying up. I used to buy them for a buck or two each for excellent to like new condition. Now I think you'll be paying $5-10 each for that condition and you better buy now.

a shortened fal clone called DSA-58OSW

Uh, one of these is not like the other... also that requires a $200 tax stamp, paperwork that a lot of us don't want to fill out, and is not legal in all states anyway (including mine).

http://www.dsarms.com/Mini-SA58-FAL-OSW-Rifle-Semi-Auto-308-Cal----SA58OSW/productinfo/SA58OSW/

 

[natescout]

M1A squad scout in a sage stock. is a great option......

 

[SaxonPig]

Z-M- Only 2 countries adopted it? Do you mean specifically the very first version by CETME or the G3 system in all subsequent versions? My source shows 55 nations that have issued the various G3 models. The FAL is more widely used (and my personal preference of the two by a slight margin) but I would hardly call it a failure as you seem to suggest.

I bought the civilian H&K M91 version around 1978. It was stolen in 1986 and recovered by the police in a drug house raid and returned to me in 2003.





I recently added a collapsing stock and 30 round magazine just for fun. I think it looks like an Ak47 on steroids.





To address the original question, any of the rifles listed will do the job. Pick the one that fits you best.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Z-M- Only 2 countries adopted it? Do you mean specifically the very first version by CETME or the G3 system in all subsequent versions?

I was referring specifically to the CETME. I'm aware of the fairly widespread adoption of the G3, which is probably third after the AKM and FAL.

 

[kimberkid]

Accuracy, reliability, and ease of finding spare parts ... all are solved

​

If you have a a mag release lever installed, the mag change issue is solved.

If you don't like the selector, it can be modified or get a PSG-1 trigger pack which has a longer selector lever and gives you a great trigger, a 2-in-1 benifit!

For a great trigger, send it to Bill Springfield.

 

[FSJeeper]

For anyone really serious about this debate, get the latest version of Boston's Gun Bible. The author does the most in depth analysis between the rifles I have ever seen. This is absolutely the best and most useful firearms book I own.

In his analysis, the M14 came in 1st with the FN FAL right on its heels.

One fact I did not know, The M14 has 61 parts, the FAL 143. For comparison, the AK has 75 and the AR has 119. Also, the SKS has 5 fewer parts than the AK.

The fact that the M14 gets the job done better with less than half the parts than the FAL is something to consider. The fact that the M14 has fewer parts than the AK is remarkable.

 

[hoodfu]

M1A Scout Squad 18" with Winchester 7.62x51mm NATO white box Q3130 and you'll have a great time. Big flash and big bang. Every one of my friends is in love with it.