.308 Enough gun for Meese, Brown Bear, Polar Bear

[H&Hhunter]

Bell and his .257rigby would have had a ball here, dontcha think?....

Caribou,

He did, Bell was professional meat hunter in the Yukon before he went to Africa.

 

[saturno_v]

The difference being that if do get that one shot in and miss or hit the vitals for that matter as vitals have NOTHING to do with stopping a critter at close range.

I totally agree...only CNS hit guarantee a stop..with any gun...a 30-06 in the spine is going to stop a big bear for sure where a 375 to the guts may not...

It puts over 4,000 Ft lbs at the muzzle and is known as one of the deepest penetrating sporting rounds on earth. The difference in striking force and authority on game is exponentially greater than that of the .30-06. One thing these bigger rifles will do is give you reliable length wise penetration on a smaller critter like a brown bear smashing the pelvis on the exit is a really good stopper if you don't hit the spine or brain on a frontal shot.

The 375 is much more powerful than a 30-06 for sure, no doubt about it...however the best 220-240 gr. loads for the '06 can put over 3000 ft/lb of energy at the muzzle....if your 375 is going to hit like a freight train ther 30-06 is not going to hit like a Yugo......at least like a semi-trailer

The .30 cal bullets over 200 gr. have tremendous SD and are well known to achieve exceptional penetration.

The stories I read and heard about very short distance of 30-06 vs. big brown make me think that we can still use the word authority....how would you define a 60 yards shot that break both shoulder before exiting??? Or a chest shot with a 7.62 X 54R that break the hump (tough muscles and bones) on its way out??

All I know is that my comfort zone in big bear country starts with a .375H&H,

Totally agree...you said some time ago that you can fire a 470 NE fairly comfortably....if you do there is not reason for you to choose a lesser gun than the one you shoot very good....but there are sunday hunters that are almost afraid to shoot their big boomer but they have no choice because some outfitter guide told them to bring the biggest baddest rifle possible...I read an outfitter web page that said that if some client felt comfortable with the weight, they would allow a 50 BMG to camp..and no they weren't joking!!...

Then you read of situations of enraged grizzlies shot all over the place with 375, 416 and 458 that "take bullets like candies, then I need an ever bigger gun"....talking about poor shot placement...

Ending on a light note, the comparison: "Bell killed elephants with a 275 Rigby then we can use a 30-06 on bears (or lions)" doesn't make much sense..the old 275 Rigby is significantly less powerful than a modern 30-06 and Elephants weight one order of magnitude more than Grizzlies....let's have the right perspective here!!

 

[H&Hhunter]

I totally agree...only CNS hit guarantee a stop..with any gun...a 30-06 in the spine is going to stop a big bear for sure where a 375 to the guts may not...

So why would you shoot them in the spine with a .30-06 but aim for the guts with a .375H&H?

I see this all the time "A well placed shot with an XYZ is better than a gut shot with a heavy rifle." Simple answer don't gut shoot them with the heavy. Because a well placed shot with a heavy is mo betta.

 

[saturno_v]

So why would you shoot them in the spine with a .30-06 but aim for the guts with a .375H&H?

Oh I know that!!! ...just for some people power is everything....when they say "that bear was taking .375 slugs like candies" they forget to mention where those bullets were really going...

A heavy recoiling rifle can induce more aiming error...I'm not talking about you, just in general for people not used to that kind of guns....and there are individuals that despite having a lot of experience with firearms will never properly master that level of power...is not for everyone...

 

[H&Hhunter]

All I know is that my comfort zone in big bear country starts with a .375H&H, one that I am completely familiar with and have the utmost confidence in if that rifle is your .30-06 then that is what you should be carrying.

Agreed in my previous post rifle comfort and familiarity trumps all. My advice is that if you are going to be treading amongst things that can kill you to get familiar with an adequate rifle. A .375H&H is hardly a difficult rifle to master. No more so than a .30-06.

Just to set the record straight I'd walk across Africa with a .30-06 and decent 220 grain solids just as I would Alaska without a second thought. But I'd prefer my good old .375H&H given the choice.

 

[saturno_v]

H&H

A bit off topic question for you.

What is your take on the Woodleigh 300 grain .338 bullet (both the Soft Point and solid)??

Double Tap makes a SAAMi complaint load in 338 Winchester Magnum which delivers 4200 ft/lb of ME (~2500 fps) out of a 24" barrel.

I heard some comments and stories from hunters that used it on Cape Buffalo hunting (where legal) and they were very impressed with the load...incredible penetration (the SD is truly impressive) even when engaging on a full frontal shot...the animals went down like being hit by a lightning.

What do you think???

 

[H&Hhunter]

I've used Woodleighs extensively. They are a very good bullet in fact I'd rate in the top three. They also make heavy for caliber rounds like the 300 gr .338 and the 350 gr .375. And yes the combination of extremely high SD and tough bonded core construction make them a devastating bullet. Do they I wonder make a 220 gr .308 version of the same combination? There's your brown bear medicine.

As far as their solids go I've personally used them on Cape buffalo. I was shooting a .458 Lott at the time. I witnessed full length wise penetration several times on a buff bull with no deformation. They are a good bullet.

 

[saturno_v]

H&H


Yes Woodleigh makes 220 and 240 gr. .308 cal. bonded core and solid bullets.
The 240 gr. SD is fenomenal and you can still push them at over 2400 fps from a 30-06 within the SAAMI spec limits.

However for brown bears many people in Alaskaalso use premium 180 and 200 gr. bullets in 30-06 and the 300 Magnums (Winchester or Weatherby) with great results.

 

[H&Hhunter]

However for brown bears many people in Alaskaalso use premium 180 and 200 gr. bullets in 30-06 and the 300 Magnums (Winchester or Weatherby) with great results.

Funny you should mention that. Living and hunting in bush of Ak is where I learned about and started using a .375H&H. When I first arrived I was carrying a .300 Weatherby. It was on the advice of some experienced old sourdough bear hunters that I changed to a .375H&H. Several had very bad experiences with the .300 mags on bear and all had changed to either a .375 or a .338. I've never looked back.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

1%??, 3%???

The difference from 30 to 375 is 25%

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Funny you should mention that. Living and hunting in bush of Ak is where I learned about and started using a .375H&H. When I first arrived I was carrying a .300 Weatherby. It was on the advice of some experienced old sourdough bear hunters that I changed to a .375H&H. Several had very bad experiences with the .300 mags on bear and all had changed to either a .375 or a .338. I've never looked back

I would like to hear your reasoning as to why the .338 Win[225@2800] is Superior to the .300 WBY[[220@2825] And yes I put my hide where my mouth is. I will be doing a fly in hunt[Supercub] in the Talkeetnas this year on a salmon river stiff with bears,just me and my hunting buddy,and I will carry a .300 WBY. If I get mangled my only option is to call for help on 121.5 on my aviation radio.

 

[saturno_v]

The difference from 30 to 375 is 25%

I meant the percentage of advantage with a larger bullet, not the difference in power....

Funny you should mention that. Living and hunting in bush of Ak is where I learned about and started using a .375H&H. When I first arrived I was carrying a .300 Weatherby. It was on the advice of some experienced old sourdough bear hunters that I changed to a .375H&H. Several had very bad experiences with the .300 mags on bear and all had changed to either a .375 or a .338. I've never looked back.

From what I heard, in some occasions the 300 Magnums (Win or Wby) failed to penetrate at very short distance against a grizzly because the bullet literally exploded on target...too much velocity and use of inappropriate bullet I guess....actually the same thing sometimes happened on deer too!!!!...like a 223 exploding on a blade of grass..I saw it myself....

With the right slug, the 300 Wby is a great thumper, same energy level of a 338 Winchester Magnum

 

[H&Hhunter]

Jim,

Did you miss the part where I said I went with a .375?

But to try and answer your question first off I wouldn't carry 225's in a .338 in bear country I would use premium expanding 250's. I am not sure that .338 gives you enough over a .300 to make a difference and that is one of the reasons I chose a .375.

The main reason I don't like the .300 Weatherby for your sated purpose is two fold. First off I don't like Weatherby Mark V's it's a personal choice thing and not a slight against your rifle if it's a Mark V, or Weatherby in general. And secondly to get what you want out of a .300 Weatherby it has to have a 26" tube. When I lived in AK I flew myself in and hunted solo quite a bit my choice for a hunting /self defense rifle was a stainless 20" .375H&H and it still is today. I've killed everything from jack rabbits to cape buffalo with that rifle I've shot it more than any other rifle I've owned and I've killed hundreds of head of game with it. This is a rifle that I am extremely comfortable with therefore I have confidence in it.

If your .300 Weatherby is that rifle for you then it is the right choice. It doesn't really matter what my opinion is on the subject it boils down to what you are comfortable with.

So with that in mind I can't answer your question as I don't know that a .338 is superior to a .300 Weatherby. A .300 Weatherby is a hard hitting SOB. I've owned several of them.

 

[H&Hhunter]

From what I heard, in some occasions the 300 Magnums (Win or Wby) failed to penetrate at very short distance against a grizzly because the bullet literally exploded on target...too much velocity and use of inappropriate bullet I guess....actually the same thing sometimes happened on deer too!!!!...like a 223 exploding on a blade of grass..I saw it myself....

Yep that was the consensus that turned me. Right or wrong I haven't regretted my decision. I actually have some first hand experience with a .300 WM failing to penetrate on a grizz at close range. Fortunately the bear exited and was killed later.

Long story short but a buddy of mine used a partially covered kill as his stand and waited for the bear to come back. He got a head on shot at about 15 yards with a 180 gr partition. He hit the bear just in the bottom of the nose. The bullet turned and exited just where the nose meets the forehead. The bear was killed the next day.

Would a heavier slower bullet done the same? No telling but it is my experience that you can count on more reliable straight line penetration with a heavier slower moving slug.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Funny you should mention that. Living and hunting in bush of Ak is where I learned about and started using a .375H&H. When I first arrived I was carrying a .300 Weatherby. It was on the advice of some experienced old sourdough bear hunters that I changed to a .375H&H. Several had very bad experiences with the .300 mags on bear and all had changed to either a .375 or a .338. I've never looked back

I am going off your remark here. My .300 WBY is a 700 Rem. Nowhere near the gun my pre war M70s are,but they are all 30-06 and I want a change of pace. For a life long 30-06 guy,when I sighted in the .300 I was astounded at how flat the trajectory was. And yes,I do own a.375,a ZKK 602 I have had for 20 years,but never use because it is as heavy as a bag of bricks

 

[saturno_v]

Yep that was the consensus that turned me. Right or wrong I haven't regretted my decision. I actually have some first hand experience with a .300 WM failing to penetrate on a grizz at close range. Fortunately the bear exited and was killed later.

Long story short but a buddy of mine used a partially covered kill as his stand and waited for the bear to come back. He got a head on shot at about 15 yards with a 180 gr partition. He hit the bear just in the bottom of the nose. The bullet turned and exited just where the nose meets the forehead. The bear was killed the next day.

Would a heavier slower bullet done the same? No telling but it is my experience that you can count on more reliable straight line penetration with a heavier slower moving slug.

Yes, velocity and spitzer bullets are not very straight penetration friendly in some situations..

Same thing happened with a 300 Win Mag on a whitetail....exploded on impact where the good old 30-30 went through and through with the astonishmnent of the shooters!!!

But the 300 Wby with round nose 220 gr is a different animal....

 

[H&Hhunter]

But the 300 Wby with round nose 220 gr is a different animal....

Agreed..

 

[BMF500]

First of all I have never personally hunted any type of bear, nor do I have any desire to. I've tried the meat and think it tastes like doo-doo. My current big boy bolt action is Weatherby chambered in .300wby. I am looking into a Sako in either .375H&H or .338Lapua, still no intrest in bears, just to have one 'cause I want to.

Now, I've made several trips to the Canadian Arctic for work reactivating a drilling rig that was cold-stacked (no pun intended) for 13 years. We hired environmental monitors, A.K.A. bear monitors (for polar bears) as escorts on the ice roads and for surveillance for all ground work. These guys, who were all born, raised, and live in and around Tuktoyaktuk, NT Canada, all carried .308's and 30-06's. .308 being the more popular. Now, exactly what cartidges these rifles were loaded with I don't know. So, as my answer to the OP, yes.

 

[saturno_v]

First of all I have never personally hunted any type of bear, nor do I have any desire to. I've tried the meat and think it tastes like doo-doo. My current big boy bolt action is Weatherby chambered in .300wby. I am looking into a Sako in either .375H&H or .338Lapua, still no intrest in bears, just to have one 'cause I want to.

Now, I've made several trips to the Canadian Arctic for work reactivating a drilling rig that was cold-stacked (no pun intended) for 13 years. We hired environmental monitors, A.K.A. bear monitors (for polar bears) as escorts on the ice roads and for surveillance for all ground work. These guys, who were all born, raised, and live in and around Tuktoyaktuk, NT Canada, all carried .308's and 30-06's. .308 being the more popular. Now, exactly what cartidges these rifles were loaded with I don't know. So, as my answer to the OP, yes.

+1 to that

As I mentioned in another post some while ago, one of the people I met worked for several years in a similar job you described for an oil company up in AK and he had quite few "close and personal" encounters with big bruins.
His favourite bear defense guns were the 12 ga Remington 870 shotgun with Brenneke Slugs and the Remington 760 pump rifle in 30-06 with an extended 10 rounds magazine.

 

[H&Hhunter]

And yes,I do own a.375,a ZKK 602 I have had for 20 years,but never use because it is as heavy as a bag of bricks

Jim,

Would you be interested in selling that 602?

 

[saturno_v]

H&H

As you know for sure, one of the most famous victims of exploding bullets in Africa was an English gentleman, Sir George Grey

He shot a Lion in the chest with its 280 Ross and the bullet exploded on its vay to the vitals not disabling the beast.

The big cat too offense and mauled Grey severely....he died few days later.

Expanding bullet technology at that time was primitive and the 280 Ross gained a bad reputation in Africa for overexpansion, total jacket separation and fragmenting because of his very high velocity for that time...unreliable bullets and a rifle with a problematic action killed an otherwise excellent cartridge.

Two decades later Winchester got it right with its fantastic 270 Win equipped with an early version of its silvertip bullet...just a tad less hot than the 280 Ross, the new bullets held very well allowing reliable expansion and deep penetration.

The 280 Ross is almost a ballistic twin of the modern day 280 Remington.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Saturno,

It is amazing how a cartridge can suffer bad press to it's demise or near demise. The .458 WM almost suffered similar fate due to compression and caking powder after it's advent. I have read one story of a .416 RM sticking in the chamber due to over pressure problems and now you can't mention the .416 RM without somebody bringing that incident up. What I don't get is that they all blame high CUP for the incident and say that high pressure rounds shouldn't be used in Africa due to the heat. But the most arguably famous African round of all time the .375H&H is always given the highest regards. And it is a high pressure round to be sure.

 

[saturno_v]

Yes, very true....

 

[caribou]

FMJ's boys.

Their legal here in Alaska, and quite deadly. Hit bone and things are broken for sure.

Three cartridges that Ive found that have and will shoot right on through, are all FMJ military cartridges.
8mm Mauser, 30-06 and my 7.62X54R.

Only once with the 8mm, but a true shoulder to shoulder shot, with both lungs toasted, but a relitvly small exit.

Several times with the '06 but most were neck/head shots that blew big holes right on through, as well as my Mosin with steel cored Czeck still moving after busting the neck into bone meal and leaving a fist sized exit hole with bullet and bone projectiles adding to the hole.
Often if the bullet hasnt exited, its laying under the skin on the far side of the shot.
In my experiance the '06 and Czeck are wicked tumblers and wild hole makers.
Im not out to get a bullet to go all the way through an animal, Im trying to bust their neck/backbones, and finnish the job 1/2 way through

I belive solids are popular for Africas game, and Ive used FMJ's for years as the ammo I buy is usually in bulk.

I also had some good Turk8mm and some bad, which is why I set the Mauser aside and fell in love with Czeck LPS. The accuracy is awsome, so when I do my part, the hole makers do theirs.

Its interesting to hear about what the larger/faster calibers have to offer.

What I see is what I shoot if its appropriate. Caribou will fill my sled if I see no Bears, Wolves if no Caribou.....what ever pops up.

 

[saturno_v]

Caribou


Yes I bet that a FMJ from an 06, Mosin or 8 mm tumbling should make a hell of a damage....