.308 for home defense?

[The Wiry Irishman]

According to DSA, I should have a new rifle in 8 to 10 weeks. When I decided I wanted to get a rifle, home defense was not a primary concern, as I live in an apartment complex and the rifles I really liked are chambered in .308 or .30-06. I figured I could use it for home defense after I graduate and live in a real house, and it could be a fun gun until then.

While researching which rifle I wanted to buy, however, I came across several mentions of the 110 grain Hornady TAP .308 in the context of remedying over-penetration concerns. Since all mentions of this ammo came from publications that were almost obscenely tactical (I was surprised to not see a mention of duct tape and trauma plates in any of them) I took their opinions and findings with a large grain of salt.

So what do you guys think? I live in an apartment complex with very thin walls. I figure no matter what home defense weapon I have, be it my new rifle or my 1911 with hollow points, any round that does not impact a bad guy is going to go straight through my wall and into the next apartment. I try to minimize this risk with regular practice. What about a hit on BG, though? Will the 110 gr. .308 keep going with enough force to kill? Is a .308 just too much gun for responsible use in my situation?

And just out of curiosity, does Hornady load their 110 grain tap lighter than a typical load for a heavier bullet, or is there just as much powder as a standard .308, sending the light bullet out of the muzzle at approximately Warp 4?

 

[dmftoy1]

I can't answer your question, but if you want to take a drive over here to Central Illinois we can build some fake walls with leftover drywall and insulation I've got laying around. (You buy the ammo to test but you've got to let me run a clip of SA .308 surplus through it in exchange! )

Have a good one,
Dave

 

[james_bond]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm

can't rember if he did .308, let's see here.

 

[james_bond]

here it is

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4_2.htm

 

[dmftoy1]

Looks to me like he did the 165 grain .308 tap but not the 110 . .

 

[TexasRifleman]

The 110gr TAP has a MV of 3165fps so it's clearly not "loaded down".

Warp 4 is about right.

I haven't seen any gel testing of the 110gr TAP but my gut would be that it would leave its target in good enough shape and with enough velocity left to keep right on going but maybe someone has some gel testing results somewhere.

 

[Markbo]

I would never consider the .308 for home defense unless I lived on top of a hill that needed protecting 360° for out to 1,000 yards. There is no man or beast that will get into my house where I live that there are not several much, much better alternatives.

 

[The Annoyed Man]

I tried the 168 gr .308 TAP out of my Remington 700 VSF varmint rifle. I was not impressed with the accuracy. In fact, nothing by Hornady seems to work well in that rifle. Federal products, on the hand, seem to work very well. That being said, I would not use a .308 battle rifle for home defense in the scenario you describe. It's just too much sturm und drang for indoors. If you want a long gun specifically for your situation, I would say go with something in .223 with a frangible bullet, or go with a shotgun.

But I'll also say right up front that I'm no expert in this stuff.

 

[MCgunner]

Not enough gun for home defense. Get yourself a Browning BAR chambered in .338 Win Mag, perfect home defense.....

 

[HOLY DIVER]

hmmmm HD in a very thin wall apartment.......i might would go with a shotgun with non-lethal loads.....(rubber bulletts)....just an idea?

 

[tblt]

I would get a 12 gauge for home defence not a .308 will go thru too many walls

 

[The Wiry Irishman]

The 110gr TAP has a MV of 3165fps so it's clearly not "loaded down".

Warp 4 is about right.

I haven't seen any gel testing of the 110gr TAP but my gut would be that it would leave its target in good enough shape and with enough velocity left to keep right on going but maybe someone has some gel testing results somewhere.

Wow. My thoughts when reading the article, after was "hey, that might work if they load it light and have some sort of nifty frangible bullet. maybe." But I'm pretty sure any bullet traveling at 3000 fps is going to go straight through a person with plenty of energy to spare.

I was trying to find the articles I saw mention the 110 grain TAP so you guys could see that I'm not making stuff up, and why I was skeptical of their claims. I didn't find the one that mentioned the TAP, but here's one that touts Black Hills 168 grain Limited Penetration:

http://www.dsarms.com/pdf/TwoDSA308.pdf (warning: pdf)

They claim it will only penetrate 10-12 inches in gel tests, but I'm highly skeptical about a projectile that heavy traveling at 2400 fps penetrating that little. Does anyone know anything about this ammo, or have a link to a less dubious source that's not sandwiched in next to a description of why Duracoating a rifle in "Afghan Camo" is a good tactical decision for cops?

 

[The Wiry Irishman]

Regarding home defense, as I said, I did not purchase the rifle with that use in mind. In a smallish apartment my 1911 will work just fine for me, and I will pick up a shotgun later in the year. I'm just curious as to whether its possible to produce ammo that will make the .308 a viable choice for this application.

 

[oregonhunter]

I personally enjoy a .500 jeffery for my home defense.

Can we just make a section for home defense their are like 10 of these threads a day.

 

[biscuitninja]

IF you must have a rifle.. get a Thompson. The .308 was/is supposed to be used for long range engagement with enough force to penetrate light structures and STILL have enough energy to perminately stop the BG. At less than 20... yea, its going to overpenetrate just a tad.
good luck
-bix

 

[TexasRifleman]

I'm just curious as to whether its possible to produce ammo that will make the .308 a viable choice for this application.

I don't believe you will find any .308 ammo that is designed with that in mind. There may be some specialty frangible .308 but I haven't ever run across any.

 

[ThomasT]

Please don't use a 308 for defense in an apartment. My cousin was playing with his dads 8mm mauser built for him by my grandfather and had an unintended discharge. The bullet went through several inside walls, out the brick veneer through the neighbors brick veneer and through a couple of walls before it stopped.

The 308 and 8mm are very similar. If you need a rifle look at something in 9mm, 40S&W or 357 lever action and then with light weight bullets. Even a 22 like a 10/22 will provide a reasonable measure of protection.

This would be a good place for a shotgun. Loads with #4 or #6 would work fine for the small rooms in the arpartment setting.

 

[shadowalker]

The bottom line is anything that will penetrate the BG enough to stop him is going to go through walls if you miss, you need 12-18 inches of penetration to stop humans, thats a lot of drywall.

If you are concerned about penetration look at #00 buck shot, it penetrates drywall less than either handguns or rifles and is an excellent human stopper. Don't use bird shot (you can search for terminal ballistics of bird shot) short story it simply lacks the momentum even at 3 yards to reliably penetrate to vitals (~ 6 inches @ 3 yards).

Unless I had no other choice I wouldn't use a .22 for protection while it may work with enough well placed shots I certainly wouldn't call it a reasonable amount of protection. Same with light 40 S&W or 9mm loads, handgun calibers have a hard time stopping threats with JHP let alone super light weight or frangible bullets.

.308 TAP loads are usally AMAX or VMAX bullets which designed with very thin construction and intended to expand explosively, the 155 grain provides ~ 16-18 inches of penetration on humans and has a brutal wound channel. The worst case scenario would be missing the threat and having an intact bullet go through the wall, TAP is constructed very lightly and I doubt there would be much left of the bullet.

Handgun calibers have been shown to penetrate more drywall than .223, I expect TAP would not be a terrible over penetrator but not something I'd use in close quarter over penetration issues.

 

[TexasRifleman]

If you are concerned about penetration look at #00 buck shot, it penetrates drywall less than either handguns or rifles and is an excellent human stopper.

You are right, it penetrates "less" but "less" is still way too much for an apartment I'm afraid.
I'm afraid it's gonna be tough with the thin walls of apartments.

I was surprised to see how much:

I then loaded a round of Remington 2 3/4", 00 Buck, 9 pellets.

This load penetrated 7 boards, 3 pellets went through the 8th board, and one pellet was stuck in the 9th board.

This is it.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

 

[lee n. field]

my wall and into the next apartment.

The next two or three apartments.

IMHO, don't do it.

 

[outofbattery]

My older brother had an ND while irresponsibly handling a CETME and sent a round of South African surplus through an interior wall,through the headboard of a waterbed,thought a corner of the waterbed itself,out through the exterior wall,by which point it only had enough energy left to nearly penetrate a steel motorcycle gas tank.I think there is a good chance that it would have penetrated a person had they been standing where the motorcycle was.
That is: the round went through 2 layers of drywall,the headboard,the waterbed membrane and several inches of water,the side of the waterbed,another layer of drywall,then the plywood and clapboard siding before almost penetrating some thin steel.That round carries some stink to it.

 

[Deer Hunter]

Simply use 110 grain TAP or 125 ballistic tips and you should be fine.

 

[Rshooter]

Please do not. The round you are thinking about using in an apartment is the same round that the military has called back to service to use for long range and penetration engagements in combat.

As far as the TAP loading I am to understand that the TAP is designed to help stop ricochets, not over penetration.

 

[shadowalker]

Please do not. The round you are thinking about using in an apartment is the same round that the military has called back to service to use for long range and penetration engagements in combat.

To be fair it is the same caliber but the military uses FMJ whereas TAP is a very lightly constructed varmint / match grade bullet designed to expand very rapidly inside the target.

TAP should not penetrate nearly as much and unlike military ammunition expands and should basically explode within the target and not leave much to penetrate beyond it. The V-MAX bullets are designed to explode on small varmint animals and TAP is or is very close to the same bullet. Ballistic tests in gelatin I saw showed VERY impressive 14-16 inch penetrations with 110 grain and around 18 inches with 155, just about ideal penetration.

The tests The Box 'O Truth did showed that .223 ammunition penetrated through less walls than handgun ammunition because the velocity of the bullet caused it to tumble and break up, same thing as when shooting into water, handguns will often penetrate more water because their lower velocity and energy allow the bullet to hold together longer.

Like I said before anything with enough penetration to stop a BG is going to go through walls, drywall is very soft and not much resistance. Harden your apartment against entry, know your safe areas of fire, practice enough to hit the target under stress, and pray it never happens.

I'd personally go with #00 buck as stated earlier it penetrates through walls less than handgun calibers and is more effective as well.

 

[The Wiry Irishman]

Don't worry people, I'm not going to be using FAL in my apartment. I never really planned to, as I was skeptical about the dubious-sounding claims in the tacti-cool articles where I saw the idea mentioned.

The purpose of the thread was to see if their claims could hold any water.

Clearly, they cannot.