308 Sizing issues

[rduckwor]

I have a nice Rem 700 SS milspec rifle with the 5R barrel.

I am trying to reload some milspec brass for the rifle and have serious difficulty sizing the brass to fit the chamber.

I bought a little once fired NATO brass a while back and it is giving me fits.

Mostly headstamped WCC and WRA, with a few LC thrown in.

Yesterday,

I took special pains to set up my sizing die (LEE) to work this brass, sized it X2 (180 degree rotation), trimmed it cleaned and dried it.

Of the 11 test cases I sized, one (LC) fits the chamber and allows me to close the bolt. All the others including a couple more LC, fail.

I should mention that I have not similar issues with commercial brass, just the milspec stuff.

What am I missing here?

Thanks,

RMD

 

[saitek]

tight fit

sound's like the brass is a little thicker and stiffer as usual .you will have to size it back a little bit more for the tighter chamber . the only thing i can think of . we usually use a rcbs precision mic on the cases that have been fired in the chamber in question to get a average between 5 case's to be able to set the die to best fit the chamber of the particular gun .my dad's m1a has a tight chamber and has to use small base dies and when you do this it really helps keep the case's from growing and last longer .
here is a link showing the mic #88329 is for .308 Winchester .
http://outdoorwriters.atk.com/resource_library/catalogs/RCBSCatalog.pdf

 

[Walkalong]

Unless it is machine gun brass, you are simply not sizing enough. There is also an outside chance you have a very tight chamber and need a small base die, but most likely, you are just not sizing enough.

 

[IMtheNRA]

While I have no experience with mil-surplus brass, I think that machine gun fired brass is generally resized with a "small base" die, to squeeze it back to optimal size.

Have you measured the mil brass after resizing to see what part of it is dimensionally different from your commercial brass?

 

[rcmodel]

And by enough, that doesn't mean size it two or three times.
Once is enough.

It means you need to screw the sizing die down in the press a little more until the ram "toggles over" at full stroke without a case in the die.

That takes all the linkage slack and press frame flex out of the sizing stroke and insures the case gets the shoulder pushed back where it came from.


If you have doubts as to what is too tight on the case.

Smoke one with a candle or color it with a dry erase marker.
Then chanber it carefully and try to close the bolt.

Where the soot or marker rubs off and you see shiny brass is where the problem is.

rc

 

[Captaingyro]

Same rifle, same issue. As rcmodel says, taking all the slack out of the press by adjusting the die down to the "cam-over" point took care of it. It seems that these rifles have very tight chambers, but the groups they shoot are spectacular.

 

[rduckwor]

Thanks for the replies. I will try to get a bit more sizing out of the die as you have suggested.

Thanks again,

RMD

 

[rduckwor]

Got it. Took 1.25 turns after the die touched the shell holder. They chamber now. Thanks,

RMD

 

[rcmodel]

Got it. Took 1.25 turns after the die touched the shell holder.

That doesn't seem possible!

1 1/8 turns is .080"!
That would be a lot of slop in a press.

What kind of press is it?

Generally speaking, you run the ram up, screw the die down till it touches the shell holder, then lower the ram slightly and screw the die in a little at a time until you feel the toggles bumping over.

Usually, that is 1/8, to no more then 1/4 turn.

rc

 

[gamestalker]

1 1/8 turn aftr initial contact with the shell holder? Not only does that seem impossible, but I would think everything that is absorbing that level of stress is going to wear out prematurely.

I have one chamber that is realy tight, so tight that it won't accept factory ammunition. But I can still get my brass to resize enough to comfortably chamber.

And resizing your brass more than once? One pass through the die is all that is necessary unless your in the initial stage of die adjustment. But beyond that point all your doing is unnecessarily working the brass, which will cause premature failure of the brass.

 

[Jasper1573]

I shoot LC brass through my 5r as well. I was sizing my brass down too much and after 3 reloadings, I started getting a few case head separations from oversizing the brass. Be sure that you aren't oversizing the brass. Sage advice from those on this forum...start backing the FL sizing die out about a quarter turn at a time sizing one piece of brass per quarter turn until the bolt just closes with some light resistance. I did this and it worked great. Since then I have fired thousands of the LC brass and only one case head separation.

 

[rduckwor]

Well, maybe I exaggerated a bit, I will work on tuning the sizer position.

I was just impressed that I was finally able to get the milspec brass sized.

Thanks, for the advice.

RMD

 

[PaperStreet]

I have a Rem 700P. It has a tight chamber as well.

The first thing I would recommend is buying a case gauge. I use a L.E. Wilson and don't load without one. Here is what I use: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/880646/le-wilson-case-length-headspace-gage-308-winchester

What that will allow you to do is verify your dies are set properly. If you were accurate with your over 1 turn adjustment comment, I would be concerned. That is too much.

You WILL need to add a little bit of extra adjustment for .308 LC brass. For me, it was about another 1/8 to 1/4 turn from where I had the die set for commercial brass.

Also note that you want the brass to fit in the case gauge as perfectly as possible. Read the instructions as there is little room for error if you want to properly setup your die. I would resize and gauge at least 10 cases before settling on a final die adjustment. Also, I have found about 1 or 2 in 100 just don't resize well. They get scraped immediately. Personally, I have a tendency to overcheck things, so I gauge every case after resizing. It is the only way to catch the 1 in 100 which just won't resize well. A SB die may fix this problem, but I don't have one and from what I have read, they are overkill in most situations. I'll defer to others on this topic.

Hope this helped some.

 

[Walkalong]

If you have a tight chambered gun, running the die down more to get the body sized enough is the wrong way to go if the shoulder gets pushed back too far. If you have to do that with your sizer, it is time for a small base die. The Wilson case gauge will keep you safe on pushing the shoulder back too far.

 

[wsryno]

I used a Lee resizing die for .270's for my BARII, and they were too tight to manually cycle the action. I used a friend's small-base RCBS die and no problem manually cycling. I emailed Lee and explained. They told me I had a tight chamber, and they asked me to send the sizing die and 2 fired cases and they'd fix it. I'm still waiting for them to return the sizing die (it's only been a week) but I'll let you know the results. I don't know if they would do the same if you're firing MIL brass. I'd rather not use a SB die if I don't have to.

 

[W.E.G.]

This business of "turn the die down until it touches..." is just guesswork.

Please get a proper case gage.

 

[bergmen]

This business of "turn the die down until it touches..." is just guesswork.

Please get a proper case gage.

That is what I have used and I would highly recommend it. I set my dies to resize .001-.002 less headspace than the fired brass from the chamber being reloaded for (two rifles, two sets of dies, two headspace settings).

Dan

 

[Blue68f100]

The Precision Mic is what I use, too. But instead of have multiple sizing dies I use shims to set the sizing die back.

 

[Walkalong]

That is a good way to do it, instead of trying to adjust the die all the time for different rifles or brass hardness.

I use spacers with crimp dies.

 

[fguffey]

“I took special pains to set up my sizing die (LEE) to work this brass, sized it X2 (180 degree rotation), trimmed it cleaned and dried it”

Rduckwor, I cut chambers, I cut short chambers, I cut chambers that are at least .010 short and “I take special pains (care) to set up my sizing die...” but I size cases for short chambers without the use of another tool nor do I find it necessary to purchase another tool, again, I cut the chamber, I know the length of the chamber in thousands from the shoulder of the chamber to the face of the bolt, most importantly I know and understand the relationship between the chamber from the bolt fact to the shoulder when compared to the chamber created when the die contacts the shell holder if the die is adjusted down to the shell holder.

When the die is adjusted down to the shell holder with the wild guestimate of a turn ‘like 1/4 turn’ cases are full length sized when the ram is raised when the press is jammed over, crammed over or crammed over, in this situation full length sizing is the same as sizing to minimum length when minimum length is understood to be new, over the counter, factory, new unfired cases. SO, if after sizing a case a reloader finds the case will not chamber the reloader must consider the chamber is ‘short chambered’ or the case whipped the press or the operator did not use up all the options at their disposal, as in the first option, raise the ram, screw the die down to the shell holder, lower the ram then screw the die in an additional (WILD GUESTIMATE) 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 OF A TURN, then, SECURE THE DIE TO THE PRESS WITH THE LOCK RING. Then raise the ram again to check for jam over, cram over or cam over, not all presses cam over.

F. Guffey

 

[USSR]

Unless the 7.62x51 brass you have is headstamped "Match", "NM". or "LR", it is almost guaranteed to be machine gun fired brass. As such, the web area of the brass is usually blown out of spec due to the "generous" chambers of machine guns. So, assuming your sizing die is set up to bump the shoulder back the correct amount, your problem is in the web area of the brass. You will no doubt need to use a small base sizing die to reduce the web area and bring it back into spec. Screwing your standard FL resizing die down further into your press is not an option, as you then bump your shoulder back farther, thereby inducing a headspace problem. BTDT.

Don

 

[Shmackey]

It means you need to screw the sizing die down in the press a little more until the ram "toggles over" at full stroke without a case in the die.

That takes all the linkage slack and press frame flex out of the sizing stroke and insures the case gets the shoulder pushed back where it came from.

This. It will work.

 

[Edarnold]

Check your necks as well

Since 7.62 NATO brass has to meet military requirements, it may well be thicker walled. If your rifle really has a match chamber, you may find that loaded rounds with the military brass won't chamber due to the neck diameter being oversized.
Have a .243 Winchester match rifle that won't chamber about 20% of factory ammunition, neck-turning the resized cases (from another rifle) shows how awful the concentricity of factory brass is. Once neck-turned and loaded, the accuracy has been amazing.

 

[USSR]

No way is a Remington Model 700 with a factory barrel going to have a chamber so tight it won't accept milspec brass. The hangup is one of two things; the shoulder is not back far enough, or the web area is too big. Marking both areas with a magic marker and trying to chamber the brass that won't fit will leave marks in the area where the problem is, and then the problem can be addressed.

Don

 

[kelbro]

No way is a Remington Model 700 with a factory barrel going to have a chamber so tight it won't accept milspec brass. The hangup is one of two things; the shoulder is not back far enough, or the web area is too big. Marking both areas with a magic marker and trying to chamber the brass that won't fit will leave marks in the area where the problem is, and then the problem can be addressed.

Don nailed it here.

My bet is that if you SB size that brass once, your regular dies (adjusted for mimimum setback) will work fine after that.