.308ARs, Armalite/DPMS

[Matt.Cross]

This is just hyperbole, a convenient trope that ignores the context of my statements

Sure, in your opinion. Fine. To anyone whose life might well depend on having a reliable weapon, it'll probably not be taken so lightly.

 

[silicosys4]

Sure, in your opinion. Fine. To anyone whose life might well depend on having a reliable weapon, it'll probably not be taken so lightly.

Get a grip. Nobody's life depends on me not rounding up or down when talking about buffer tube dimensions in a discussion where its perfectly clear what is being discussed.

 

[silicosys4]

That's fine as opinions goes, doesn't hold any water in terms of fact.

What doesn't hold water is your premise that my rounding of a measurement in one instance during a much broader conversation where it was perfectly clear what was being discussed.... is going to lead to some sort of life endangering malfunction of my or anyone elses AR308 in a life threatening situation.

Now, if you really want to get into a discussion about misinformation and user induced errors potentially causing life threatening malfunctions,
We can talk about gas tube replacements that aren't recommended by any manufacturer in the industry and what too long a gas tube can do if it bottoms out in the carrier key before the bolt fully locks up. Thats a question thats been at the back of my mind for a while now.

 

[Gordon]

I think the tube depth and buffer length and possibly spring weight/length is very important on the AR10 longer bolt stroke. That's why I went with Aero spring and buffer and not the JP system I was thinking of.using. The Aero .308 buffer is 3.5 .oz and 2.5" length. I really appreciated the way I could dial in my JP adjustable gas block to use German Nato 147 grain ammo , Winchester .308 150 grain silvertip and it also shot Lake City M118 175 grain ammo ok with a little final adjustment , all with surprisingly light recoil - I could see the long and moderate bolt speed was working well with the buffer . There are differences in the Aero M5 pin lengths so that is why I used Areo lower kit but used a Giessel trigger I had and it worked fine. My rifle was carefully broken in with the old German ammo I have batle packs of from early 90s . Then the other ammo tested and all the data entered in my log book. The Geco German ball after break in produced just under an inch at 100 yards , the Winchester 150 grain 5 year old silvertips about 3/4" and the lake city match a little tighter . I have 7.62 small base dies that I have been using since middle 80s to load semi battle rifles and have pet loads for them logged. But they were M1a, HK91 and a couple FALs so I will start off mello with a known medium speed powder , I have a lot of Varget. Ithink I will try to get a load generated around the 168 grain Ballistic tip load starting at 42 grains and going up a half grain checking 200 yard groups to see if they tighten or not . 2500 fps with that bullet in a 18" barrel is plenty for me. Since the picture was taken I have swapped the scope for a
VX-3i 4.5-14x56mm Side Focus Illuminated Reticle which I bought used for a price I couldn't pass up from someone who wanted a higher power optic . I still have the Docter RMR as my BUS for it . I use this Areo lower for a Aero M5e1 6.5 Creedmore I bought this fall and mounted a ATN 5-20 4k pro on but will wait till spring in Oregon to work with it. I will not be putting a BUS on , I consider this caliber a possible hunting and range toy. I bought the complete Aero 6.5 Creedmore upper at a blow out one day sale and have not added an ADJ gas block, but it has rifle length gas tube, Ill see how it works with out one !

 

[Matt.Cross]

Now, if you really want to get into a discussion about misinformation and user induced errors potentially causing life threatening malfunctions,
We can talk about gas tube replacements that aren't recommended by any manufacturer in the industry and what too long a gas tube can do if it bottoms out in the carrier key before the bolt fully locks up. Thats a question thats been at the back of my mind for a while now.

Excellent idea, what's your experience with this problem? Is this something you have personally experienced, or are we discussing a mere hypothetical here?

 

[silicosys4]

Other than having the "short" gas tube you guys go off about over there on AR308, and not a single malfunction resulting from it, none.
I certainly don't have the malfunction issues with my factory gas tube that you guys say I should.

Why do you endorse swapping gas tubes over at AR308 without any indication that gas tube length is a problem? Why are there no warnings along with these gas tube swap endorsements about what carrier key/gas tube interference can do if your gas tube prevents your bolt from fully locking?

Edit: just got off the phone with Criterion barrels. They confirmed my suspicions. A properly functioning rifle with what you consider a "short" gas tube is preferred to having a longer than necessary gas tube, and sticking too long a gas tube into the rifle can cause catastrophic malfunction when the gas tube interferes with the carrier key, preventing the bolt from fully locking

 

[Matt.Cross]

Other than having the "short" gas tube you guys go off about over there on AR308, and not a single malfunction resulting from it, none.
I certainly don't have the malfunction issues with my factory gas tube that you guys say I should.

Why do you endorse swapping gas tubes over at AR308 without any indication that gas tube length is a problem? Why are there no warnings along with these gas tube swap endorsements about what carrier key/gas tube interference can do if your gas tube prevents your bolt from fully locking?

Edit: just got off the phone with Criterion barrels. They confirmed my suspicions. A properly functioning rifle with what you consider a "short" gas tube is preferred to having a longer than necessary gas tube, and sticking too long a gas tube into the rifle can cause catastrophic malfunction when the gas tube interferes with the carrier key, preventing the bolt from fully locking

So it is a hypothetical, not something you or to my knowledge anyone else has experienced, certainly not anyone who followed the advice to install an appropriate length gas tube. By the way, I read your thread and since you no longer have the factory PSA recoil system, ie changed buffer and spring, your data concerning the factory gas tube is moot. Those two quarters in your jury rigged buffer tube say everything anyone needs to know about your defense of PSA's poor implementation of the large frame ARs.

 

[silicosys4]

So it is a hypothetical, not something you or to my knowledge anyone else has experienced, certainly not anyone who followed the advice to install an appropriate length gas tube. By the way, I read your thread and since you no longer have the factory PSA recoil system, ie changed buffer and spring, your data concerning the factory gas tube is moot. Those two quarters in your jury rigged buffer tube say everything anyone needs to know about your defense of PSA's poor implementation of the large frame ARs.

"Appropriate length" gas tube indeed. The appropriate length gas tube on an AR 308 is the one that functions the rifle reliably without causing interference on the carrier key. Your advice to people to change out their gas tube for a longer one regardless of the functionality of their rifle, without doing proper measurements to ensure clearance, is certainly amateurish and borderline negligent.

As far as my choice of spring/buffer combo...My rifle functions perfectly fine with the factory setup or with the Tubbs spring and H3 buffer. The only difference is the ejection pattern and strength. I reload so I prefer a softer ejection, but the system worked fine as it came. This has NOTHING to do with the factory gas tube length so my point still stands. If my factory gas tube were too short, adding weight to the recoil system would have exacerbated or exposed any problems with short stroking. I don't have short stroking problems either way, therefore my gas tube is perfectly fine.

"Poor implementation of the large frame AR's"
Weren't you just talking about opinions that aren't supported by facts? You have your opinion, PSA has a ton of satisfied customers.
"My defense"? Please link to where I have defended PSA's decisions to continue to use a longer than required buffer tube as correct. I've stated from the start that its a mess they need to fix, but in the end, it is solely a cosmetic issue that is incredibly easy to fix, so I'm not going to make a mountain out of a molehill

 

[Varminterror]

If your life or anything you consider important will ever depend on having a functional gun, it makes a little bit of sense to maintain consistency for the sake of functionality.

Absolute cop out, and borderline gibberish.... but hey, build ONE type of AR and be happy in your life.

 

[Varminterror]

I wonder how it is that 3 gunners can build/buy ultralight operating systems and run exceptionally fast, AND reliably, AND for exceptionally high round counts, if ONLY one buffer spring, one buffer weight, and one carrier weight can be reliable?

 

[Matt.Cross]

Absolute cop out, and borderline gibberish.... but hey, build ONE type of AR and be happy in your life.

I've built several builds on different types, using various components. What I've learned from that process is how to save hard-earned money that doesn't need to be wasted on incompatible parts. If you love wasting time and money, more power to you friend.

 

[silicosys4]

I've built several builds on different types, using various components. What I've learned from that process is how to save hard-earned money that doesn't need to be wasted on incompatible parts. If you love wasting time and money, more power to you friend.

There are lots of compatible parts to build lots of different, fully functional systems that are suited to lots of different needs.

 

[Matt.Cross]

I wonder how it is that 3 gunners can build/buy ultralight operating systems and run exceptionally fast, AND reliably, AND for exceptionally high round counts, if ONLY one buffer spring, one buffer weight, and one carrier weight can be reliable?

And I wonder how you arrive at the conclusion that anybody has suggested that ONLY one system works? I contrast that with the frequent recommendation of a system that is well known to work reliably.

 

[Matt.Cross]

There are lots of compatible parts to build lots of different, fully functional systems that are suited to lots of different needs.

I agree.

 

[TN Outlaw]

Easy fella's, you're gonna mess around and ruffle your crew cuts and wrinkle your 5.11's.

Do we need to get some FDE and Burnt Bronze colored pillows in here so y'all can settle this?

Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood, I can see myself out now.

 

[Matt.Cross]

Your advice to people to change out their gas tube for a longer one regardless of the functionality of their rifle, without doing proper measurements to ensure clearance, is certainly amateurish and borderline negligent.

About as negligent as your assumptions that the proper measurements weren't made, which is false by the way.

 

[Matt.Cross]

Easy fella's, you're gonna mess around and ruffle your crew cuts and wrinkle your 5.11's.

Do we need to get some FDE and Burnt Bronze colored pillows in here so y'all can settle this?

Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood, I can see myself out now.

Thanks for a bit of levity, LOL.

 

[silicosys4]

About as negligent as your assumptions that the proper measurements weren't made, which is false by the way.

FYI, its not negligent to discuss proper clearances and question your practices.

So link me up to that discussion on AR308. Its mysteriously lacking from every single suggestion you guys are giving people to swap gas tubes that I could find. Show me the thread on how to measure carrier key depth and gas tube length, and bolt clearances to ensure non-interference.

Is it not your forum? Do you care about the ramifications of people giving potentially catastrophically bad advice on your forum, like "just swap gas tubes" without discussing the safety issues involved?

 

[Matt.Cross]

FYI, its not negligent to discuss proper clearances and question your practices.

So link me up to that discussion on AR308. Its mysteriously lacking from every single suggestion you guys are giving people to swap gas tubes that I could find. Show me the thread on how to measure carrier key depth and gas tube length, and bolt clearances to ensure non-interference.

Just so we're clear, your assumption here is no thread = no measurements?

 

[silicosys4]

Just so we're clear, your assumption here is no thread = no measurements?

No, my experience is that whenever a discussion comes up about swapping gas tube lengths on AR 308, there is no accompanying disclaimer given to the effect of "and check your gas tube to carrier key clearance, the measurements should be .......".

 

[Varminterror]

I wonder how you arrive at the conclusion that anybody has suggested that ONLY one system works?

Pretty simple answer: the OP.

If you care to read the threads in which you post:

The AR-10 was the first rifle - not the AR15. It was fully designed with a 5.4oz buffer, because that was "enough mass to control the ass" and the weight of the BCG, cartridge pressure, and everything else associated with firing a .308 Winchester load from "The AR." 5.4oz buffer. Oh, I forgot the spring - the Armalite EA1095 spring. That is THE recoil spring - yeah, same spring, doesn't matter if you're running Rifle recoil system or Carbine recoil system. Same spring does it for both - with a 5.4oz buffer.

I paid for college building AR’s during the first boom in the early 2000’s when it became obvious the AWB was falling, and of course, after it did. Hundreds of them came in and out of my shop. I’m not some keyboard warrior who carried one here or there, or built one based on what .mil said was best, I was the guy responsible for making rifles suit customer applications and expectations. Square pegs don’t fit in round holes, and using the wrong length of gas tube is just a silly excuse to call two things incompatible, but reciprocating mass, gas port diameter, and spring rate are VERY fluid design parameters for the AR design, with a LOT more options than one manufacturers spring and one buffer weight.

 

[Matt.Cross]

Pretty simple answer: the OP.

If you care to read the threads in which you post:



I paid for college building AR’s during the first boom in the early 2000’s when it became obvious the AWB was falling, and of course, after it did. Hundreds of them came in and out of my shop. I’m not some keyboard warrior who carried one here or there, or built one based on what .mil said was best, I was the guy responsible for making rifles suit customer applications and expectations. Square pegs don’t fit in round holes, and using the wrong length of gas tube is just a silly excuse to call two things incompatible, but reciprocating mass, gas port diameter, and spring rate are VERY fluid design parameters for the AR design, with a LOT more options than one manufacturers spring and one buffer weight.

Excellent, so point out to me again the part where nothing else works, because that's what I don't see in all that.

It's still not there, that's just what you're reading in to it.

 

[Matt.Cross]

No, my experience is that whenever a discussion comes up about swapping gas tube lengths on AR 308, there is no accompanying disclaimer given to the effect of "and check your gas tube to carrier key clearance, the measurements should be .......".

We're not a gunsmith shop, the disclaimer is implicit to taking your gunsmithing advice off the internet, no disclaimer is owed or given. The gas key clearance in the case of the PSA BCG is a known quantity, has been measured, we already know that there's no impediment with the proper length tube because it has been tested.

 

[Varminterror]

The OP comes in and creates a thread as a retort to another thread, immediately starts slinging mud at manufacturers and rifle builders, professional and amateur, points out generic mistakes some home-builders have made, then cites “THE” parameters which work... or at least worked that one time for him... forgive me for inferring an inflated ego and a lack of understanding of basic physics and engineering design behind the AR reciprocating system in the OP...

 

[silicosys4]

We're not a gunsmith shop, the disclaimer is implicit to taking your gunsmithing advice off the internet, no disclaimer is owed or given. The gas key clearance in the case of the PSA BCG is a known quantity, has been measured, we already know that there's no impediment with the proper length tube because it has been tested.

Link to that test?