.338-06 vs .30-06 for a Bush Gun.

[Dr T]

When you come across a fresh paw print that is 2 inches deep and bigger than a dinner plate in the bottom of a sand wash in brush that is three feet higher than your head and 6 foot visibility is a wishful thought, it tends to focus your attention.

Since this is a corner case for the bush rifle, my own idea of optimal (given the 30-06 vs 338-06) would have to be the 338-06. I would even opt for an 18" barrel and whatever LOP you need so that when you shoulder the rifle, the sights are dead on to where you are looking (My Ruger No.1 RSI does this for me but YMMV). Also, considering this corner case, I would choose a ghost ring and a good quality 1-4x scope on a mount that will give you a consistent return-to-zero after dismounting and remounting the scope. For a scope, something like a Bushnell Engage 1-4x x 24 mm with a 30 mm tube and a German #4 illuminated reticle comes to mind since with the scope set on 1x and the illumination turned all the way up it is sort of like a red dot. At 4x, the power should be enough for any reasonable shot on game.

 

[bigpower491]

I've got a 338-06

Get a 338-06......

Hand load only tho......

 

[KansasTrapper77]

When you come across a fresh paw print that is 2 inches deep and bigger than a dinner plate in the bottom of a sand wash in brush that is three feet higher than your head and 6 foot visibility is a wishful thought, it tends to focus you attention.

Since this is a corner case for the bush rifle, my own idea of optimal (given the 30-06 vs 338-06) would have to be the 338-06. I would even opt for an 18" barrel and whatever LOP you need so that when you shoulder the rifle, the sights are dead on to where you are looking (My Ruger No.1 RSI does this for me but YMMV). Also, considering this corner case, I would choose a ghost ring and a good quality 1-4x scope on a mount that will give you a consistent return-to-zero after dismounting and remounting the scope. For a scope, something like a Bushnell Engage 1-4x x 24 mm with a 30 mm tube and a German #4 illuminated reticle comes to mind since with the scope set on 1x and the illumination turned all the way up it is sort of like a red dot. At 4x, the power should be enough for any reasonable shot on game.

You think its a corner case? I feel like the only extreme is Mr. Griz. But I think I agree with most of what you’re saying other than the Irons. I would want them to be a bit more precise than a ghost ring. But they are there as a contingency for the scope. But I completely agree in the power and style.

The caliber I think it’s hard to beat the .30-06 for being well rounded but the idea of a custom .338-06 has always tickled my fancy.

 

[Dr T]

Mathematically, in a multivariate problem with a convex set of possible solutions, a corner case is where an optimal solution can be determined for selecting the choice of cartridge. It is the griz that introduces this particular corner
Please excuse me for dropping into jargon.

However, that paw print I encountered in that wash about 30 yards off of the Nushagak has provided me a lot of food for thought over the years...Personally, I would have preferred an armored personnel carrier.

 

[SwampWolf]

I thought everyone knew by now, there's no such thing as a "brush gun"!

Oh, but there is! Says so right on the box my Savage Model 99 "Series A" rifle, chambered in .358 came in.

 

[Captcurt]

Or assemble a short-action rifle in .338 Federal.

Something like a model 7 action would be an awesome foundation.

With a 20” barrel you might as well go full-compact .

Stay safe.

I tried the 338 Federal and for the life of me I couldn't get a 200gr over 2600fps. Tried 4 different powders and all of the max loads with those powders were compressed loads. The Federal factory loads claimed 2700fps. WRONG! They chrono'd at 2750. The 8th edition Hornady manual shows loads up to 2900 with the 200gr in the 338-06. You would probably lose 100fps with the 20" barrel with either load. The extra powder capacity in the 338-06 will run away from the Federal when you go to heavier bullets like the 225 and 250gr.

If you put either load in a light rifle you better have your hat hat screwed down tight.

 

[Riomouse911]

I tried the 338 Federal and for the life of me I couldn't get a 200gr over 2600fps. Tried 4 different powders and all of the max loads with those powders were compressed loads. The Federal factory loads claimed 2700fps. WRONG! They chrono'd at 2750. The 8th edition Hornady manual shows loads up to 2900 with the 200gr in the 338-06. You would probably lose 100fps with the 20" barrel with either load. The extra powder capacity in the 338-06 will run away from the Federal when you go to heavier bullets like the 225 and 250gr.

If you put either load in a light rifle you better have your hat hat screwed down tight.

True, like all of the ‘06 spawned cartridges will outrun all of the .308’s children, especially with heavier slugs.

The bush-gun concept, IMHO, is epitomized with the Marlin Guide Gun in .45/70; compact, reliable, powerful, packable. etc. My GG is one of the original ported versions, it is much more bush-plane friendly than my longer-barreled bolt guns or the 1895 CB. (I do have an M-77 RSI that could double as a bush rifle, but that is in the lighter weight.243.)

A 18-20” Model 7 in .338 Fed or .358 Win would certainly fit the bill for my ideal bolt-action bush rifle.

Stay safe.

 

[Captcurt]

True, like all of the ‘06 spawned cartridges will outrun all of the .308’s children, especially with heavier slugs.

The bush-gun concept, IMHO, is epitomized with the Marlin Guide Gun in .45/70; compact, reliable, powerful, packable. etc. My GG is one of the original ported versions, it is much more bush-plane friendly than my longer-barreled bolt guns or the 1895 CB. (I do have an M-77 RSI that could double as a bush rifle, but that is in the lighter weight.243.)

A 18-20” Model 7 in .338 Fed or .358 Win would certainly fit the bill for my ideal bolt-action bush rifle.

Stay safe.

I do like the Model 7 and the Ruger compact 77. I had a compact Ruger in 260 Rem that was very handy. If I ever had a chance to fly in a bush plane where the bears were, the 45-70 would be with me.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I said bush gun as in “Alaskan bush” or “Bush plane” its not for shooting through bush its for being carried through bush, rugged enough to survive it, and strong enough cartridge to take Mr. Griz when he decides he would like a taste of what you’re having for dinner.

Dang. I thought it meant a rifle capable of bringing down a Super Cub with one shot.

 

[KansasTrapper77]

Dang. I thought it meant a rifle capable of bringing down a Super Cub with one shot.

I hear those Super Cubs are pretty tough

 

[Chuck R.]

True, like all of the ‘06 spawned cartridges will outrun all of the .308’s children, especially with heavier slugs.

The bush-gun concept, IMHO, is epitomized with the Marlin Guide Gun in .45/70; compact, reliable, powerful, packable. etc. My GG is one of the original ported versions, it is much more bush-plane friendly than my longer-barreled bolt guns or the 1895 CB. (I do have an M-77 RSI that could double as a bush rifle, but that is in the lighter weight.243.)

A 18-20” Model 7 in .338 Fed or .358 Win would certainly fit the bill for my ideal bolt-action bush rifle.

Stay safe.

I agree.

But, IF I was adding the whole "bear defense" thing, I'd probably go with something like the .350RM or even better the .35 Sambar (358 WSM wildcat). Either would put a 250 grn out of an 18-20" barrel at over 2500 or so (35 Sambar gets around 2700 + with a 250). Also both can still reach out to 300+ if need be. I'm having my current M7 in .350RM restocked this year with a Manners and it will bring the weight down to 6.5lbs scoped, with a Leupold 2.5-8x36. Mine's got irons and two scopes in Warne QD mounts, the 2.5-8x36 and a Swarovski 1.25-4x28. It will be great carrying, painful from the bench.

I thought about doing a Sambar conversion to mine, but honestly there's not many problems that can't be solved in the lower 48 with a 225 at 2730 FPS. That's with IMR4320, I might be able to do a little better with TAC. I'm also well stocked in .350RM brass and now have the ability to convert 7mm Mag brass (or any other belted case) to .350RM. With Hornady 200 Spire Points I can load it down to 35Rem "+P" so it's not too much overkill from a tree stand.

 

[KansasTrapper77]

True, like all of the ‘06 spawned cartridges will outrun all of the .308’s children, especially with heavier slugs.

The bush-gun concept, IMHO, is epitomized with the Marlin Guide Gun in .45/70; compact, reliable, powerful, packable. etc. My GG is one of the original ported versions, it is much more bush-plane friendly than my longer-barreled bolt guns or the 1895 CB. (I do have an M-77 RSI that could double as a bush rifle, but that is in the lighter weight.243.)

A 18-20” Model 7 in .338 Fed or .358 Win would certainly fit the bill for my ideal bolt-action bush rifle.

Stay safe.

See, I have a Marlin Guide gun which I adore. But my thought process was a single very utilitarian rifle with a touch more range or ease at range than the 45-70. Like you were hunting moose in bear territory. You might have to take a 200 or 300 yard shot to bag your moose but when you’re quartering your moose in the willows you need something handy for Mr. Griz. So I kinda felt the middle ground would be a 20” .30-06 or .338-06 with a controlled feed action. I wouldn’t want a 24” push feed precision rifle with a 20x scope in that thick brush.

I should have clarified this when I first made the post. This hypothetical rifle’s main purpose is to be a hunting rifle for moose, elk, caribou, whatever. Grizzly defense is a just a constraint to the idea not it’s driving purpose.

Thanks y’all for the discussion, I’ve enjoyed it.

 

[Riomouse911]

See, I have a Marlin Guide gun which I adore. But my thought process was a single very utilitarian rifle with a touch more range or ease at range than the 45-70. Like you were hunting moose in bear territory. You might have to take a 200 or 300 yard shot to bag your moose but when you’re quartering your moose in the willows you need something handy for Mr. Griz. So I kinda felt the middle ground would be a 20” .30-06 or .338-06 with a controlled feed action. I wouldn’t want a 24” push feed precision rifle with a 20x scope in that thick brush.

I should have clarified this when I first made the post. This hypothetical rifle’s main purpose is to be a hunting rifle for moose, elk, caribou, whatever. Grizzly defense is a just a constraint to the idea not it’s driving purpose.

Thanks y’all for the discussion, I’ve enjoyed it.

Gotcha. I was equating “ bush gun” with “bush plane” a bit too much .

You’ll have a powerful little rifle when you are done, if you do start on the project keep us apprised of your progress.

Stay safe.

 

[wombat13]

With 225 gr bullets, the .338WM (~2,800 fps) gives you about 125 yards more range than a .338-06 (~2,600 fps). For example, the .338-06 bullet (using Accubond data) will be traveling 2,000 fps at 400 yards while the .338WM bullet will be traveling 2,000 fps at 525 yards. So, when considering the .338-06 you can compare it to the .338WM at +125 yards. Will a .338-06 quickly kill a grizz at 50 yards? Well, will a .338WM quickly kill a grizz at 175 yards? Is a .338-06 a good choice for elk at 300 yards? Well, is a .338WM a good choice for elk at 425 yards?

If you plan to use 250 gr bullets, then the .338-06 gives up about 175 yards on the .338WM.

 

[DM~]

I said bush gun as in “Alaskan bush” or “Bush plane” its not for shooting through bush its for being carried through bush, rugged enough to survive it, and strong enough cartridge to take Mr. Griz when he decides he would like a taste of what you’re having for dinner.

I was just giving a smartazz answer above... lol But, now I'll give you a serous one.

I already did the Alaska "bush thing", I lived in Alaska for MANY years, much of it in the Bush, much of it hunting big bears. I also have much experience with the 30-06, .338-06 and the 350 Rem. Mag...

Over all the years of hunting bigger big game, I've came to the conclusion that too many people are worried about the caliber and not enough about the actual bullet that they are shooting. Here's an example, I hear it time and time again, in a 30-06 use 220 RN bullets for big bears, I've shot big game with the 220RN and MY experience is, they are NOT a good bullet for bigger big game, they are too fragile for tough shots. I once shot a caribou that was about 130 yards away, facing me, and the 220RN center punched the chest, that bullet made it in about 6 inches before exploding! NOT near the ideal bullet in my book, especially for dangerous game!

For ME, the perfect bullet for every situation that a solid isn't needed (read Africa) I want my bullet to expand fast, BUT that same bullet has to penetrate deep and leave an exit hole in the animal every time! For me then, that means I'll stick with Nosler Partitions for that job, the nose expands fast and the shank drives in deep with very good penetration, even after going through bone!

I Have NO problem with the 30-06 for use on moose or big bears, as long as it's used at ranges big bears SHOULD be shot at and it's properly loaded. Mine is ALWAYS loaded with 200NP's, the 30-06 is my minimum for big bears, as it's the minimum 30 cal. cartridge when loaded with heavier bullets, that is fast enough to get the deep penetration I want.

I hunted big moose and big bears enough that I build a rifle just for that purpose. After going through many different rifles and cartridges, I built a .338-06 22" bbl. and it has served me well, I have no problem with the 22" bbl.. IF, I was going to use a magnum, it would be a 7mm Rem. mag., (would want a 24" bbl.) and it would be loaded with 175NP's, so loaded, it's a great bigger big game round!

I did use the 350 Rem. Mag. over a couple years chambered in different rifles, and to be honest, I didn't like it. You have to use 300 grain bullets to get the penetration I wanted and even today, there are just better bullet choices in .338...

BTW, I want to add that one non-NP bullet I really did have good luck with in .338, is the Speer 275 that's no longer made. I once jumped a wounded brown bear at about 40 yards, and it jumped up and was going straight away. I put a 275 up it's poop shoot and the bullet went in about a foot, went into the back bone and took out about 12" of back bone and exited the top of the hide. I'm thinking the bear was angled with the rear up a bit when the bullet hit. The bear rolled and was done right there.

I kept this about bigger big game because, if it works on the bigger stuff, then it will work on the smaller stuff too, and the NP's expanding fast, will make sure it works on the smaller stuff like deer and caribou.

DM

 

[wombat13]

I was just giving a smartazz answer above... lol But, now I'll give you a serous one.

I already did the Alaska "bush thing", I lived in Alaska for MANY years, much of it in the Bush, much of it hunting big bears. I also have much experience with the 30-06, .338-06 and the 350 Rem. Mag...

Over all the years of hunting bigger big game, I've came to the conclusion that too many people are worried about the caliber and not enough about the actual bullet that they are shooting. Here's an example, I hear it time and time again, in a 30-06 use 220 RN bullets for big bears, I've shot big game with the 220RN and MY experience is, they are NOT a good bullet for bigger big game, they are too fragile for tough shots. I once shot a caribou that was about 130 yards away, facing me, and the 220RN center punched the chest, that bullet made it in about 6 inches before exploding! NOT near the ideal bullet in my book, especially for dangerous game!

For ME, the perfect bullet for every situation that a solid isn't needed (read Africa) I want my bullet to expand fast, BUT that same bullet has to penetrate deep and leave an exit hole in the animal every time! For me then, that means I'll stick with Nosler Partitions for that job, the nose expands fast and the shank drives in deep with very good penetration, even after going through bone!

I Have NO problem with the 30-06 for use on moose or big bears, as long as it's used at ranges big bears SHOULD be shot at and it's properly loaded. Mine is ALWAYS loaded with 200NP's, the 30-06 is my minimum for big bears, as it's the minimum 30 cal. cartridge when loaded with heavier bullets, that is fast enough to get the deep penetration I want.

I hunted big moose and big bears enough that I build a rifle just for that purpose. After going through many different rifles and cartridges, I built a .338-06 22" bbl. and it has served me well, I have no problem with the 22" bbl.. IF, I was going to use a magnum, it would be a 7mm Rem. mag., (would want a 24" bbl.) and it would be loaded with 175NP's, so loaded, it's a great bigger big game round!

I did use the 350 Rem. Mag. over a couple years chambered in different rifles, and to be honest, I didn't like it. You have to use 300 grain bullets to get the penetration I wanted and even today, there are just better bullet choices in .338...

BTW, I want to add that one non-NP bullet I really did have good luck with in .338, is the Speer 275 that's no longer made. I once jumped a wounded brown bear at about 40 yards, and it jumped up and was going straight away. I put a 275 up it's poop shoot and the bullet went in about a foot, went into the back bone and took out about 12" of back bone and exited the top of the hide. I'm thinking the bear was angled with the rear up a bit when the bullet hit. The bear rolled and was done right there.

I kept this about bigger big game because, if it works on the bigger stuff, then it will work on the smaller stuff too, and the NP's expanding fast, will make sure it works on the smaller stuff like deer and caribou.

DM

What bullet weight did you settle on for the .338-06?

 

[DM~]

What bullet weight did you settle on for the .338-06?

250NP or 275 Speer...

In the .338 mag., 340 Wby., I used 250NP's...

DM

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Methinks you'll will be well served with the .338-06. I'm a .30-06 fan myself, but I think a little more bullet diameter and weight can't hurt. I'd not worry about which caliber outperforms which at 400+ yards. A 20" barrel might not be the best choice for long range anyhow. (I'd add two inches to your barrel, you won't notice any difference in the bush, and it will fit in the Super Cub just as well)

I would agree that well constructed bullets are priority #1. At close range, bad breath distance, Grizz is almost on you, you do have the benefit of full muzzle velocity. I hunt in a grizzly recovery area (GMU113 Washington State) (and I've seen some monster tracks) (google the Monster Grizz they tagged near Priest Lake, Idaho) and I sometimes pack just a .30WCF when hiking/exploring/trekking. But I load it with a 180 grain RN bullet intended for faster caliber rifles. I figure that it will expand a little, and penetrate a lot, at .30WCF velocity, at bad breath distance. Am I crazy? Yes. Should I only enter them mountains with my .45-70 or .350 RemMag? (I load my .350 with those old Barnes 300 grain Copper tube jacketed bullets) Yes. But, I just play the odds, and figure I'd rather die fighting grizz, then dying on the side of the highway after a traffic accident on the way up to the mountains and back which is way way way more likely. But my point, choose your bullet well.

 

[KansasTrapper77]

Gotcha. I was equating “ bush gun” with “bush plane” a bit too much .

You’ll have a powerful little rifle when you are done, if you do start on the project keep us apprised of your progress.

Stay safe.

Well now it’s just waiting to find a rifle to start with. I’d like to find a Bubba’ed M1917

 

[Captcurt]

It would be interesting to do some penetration test. Take the 200gr of the same make in 30-06, 338-06, and the 338 Federal, and see which one penetrates the deepest. I would nearly bet on the 30-06 just because of the better SD. What do you think?

 

[Varminterror]

It would be interesting to do some penetration test. Take the 200gr of the same make in 30-06, 338-06, and the 338 Federal, and see which one penetrates the deepest. I would nearly bet on the 30-06 just because of the better SD. What do you think?

Depends on the bullet construction. Let a .30-06 open faster and it’ll penetrate less, despite having a higher SD.

 

[shootr]

I like your idea of finding a bubba'd something and building on it. If a .338 mag is out of the question, then my vote goes for the .338-06 solely because I have one and like it a lot. I also think that if a good rebore 'smith is available you might consider that route. FWIW, years ago I picked up a beater K98 that someone long ago had done some nice work on -- bolt handle, side mount scope base, Weaver 3X and peeps, aftermarket trigger, fiberglass stock. The rig had been hunted to cosmetic abuse - but had no rust and a beautiful bore. Given the original stepped barrel, I assumed it was an 8X57. It turned out to have been rebored into a .338-06. The plan had been to pull the barrel and build, but on test-firing with a random, middle-of-the-road load, it shot a cloverleaf at 100 yards. It's easy to load for, .338-06 packs a strong punch, bullets aplenty, and I think for what you're going after it will do you well.

 

[Chuck R.]

Depends on the bullet construction. Let a .30-06 open faster and it’ll penetrate less, despite having a higher SD.

Which is one of the reasons I think relying on SD as an indicator of performance is outdated unless it's the same construction. For example some of the Barnes bullets have some pretty crappy numbers, but they're "known" to penetrate well and are often chosen over heavier projectiles in the same caliber. Picking a bullet by SD probably was more valid back before we had so many different types of construction.

 

[PapaG]

Thank you so much for not trying to emphasize the nebulous “brush busting” value. I’d vote for the 338 because I like big bullets.

 

[KansasTrapper77]

Thank you so much for not trying to emphasize the nebulous “brush busting” value. I’d vote for the 338 because I like big bullets.

I love a good argument about “brush busting” guns but those are best had over beers where you can see my sh*t eating grin as I tell you my 45-70 cuts down full grown oaks (and mills them afterwards ) while still killing the deer on the other side, not over the internet.

And honestly for where I live the .338-06 would be overkill but for reasons I can’t explain I love the idea of having a “custom” gun and cartridge for that one day I make it on the bush plane haha.