35 Whelen vs 338-06

[sage5907]

If you look at the chart on your post #88 a 1 1/2 contour is .600 at the muzzle and with a scope that relates to a 8 3/4 pound rifle which is like a #2 barrel from other barrel makers.

I said in my original post that a rifle with a #2 barrel relates to a 8 3/4 pound rifle. The weight of 35 Whelen's rifle came in at 8 pounds 13 ounces which is just an ounce over what I estimated. His rifle with a 24 inch #2 Douglas barrel would have a muzzle diameter of .600. I have owned 3 of the Douglas #2 barrels in the past and they were high quality accurate barrels. If his rifle would have had a #3 Douglas barrel with a muzzle diameter of .625 the weight of his rifle would have been 4 ounces more which is over 9 pounds. He also kept his rifle weight down by having a no bells and whistles hunting scope. A big scope would have increased the weight by an additional 4 to 6 ounces. Personally I like a scope that weighs about 13 ounces because an 18 to 20 ounce scope is not user friendly.

 

[Chuck R.]

This is what I had put together last year, it's kind of my idea of a "crossover" rifle"; mid weight for hunting, while keeping some capability for distance, hence the 3-18x50 and 2B profile. 8lbs 9 ounce with 1.5lbs worth of glass and mounts and a .308" hole. The stock was 28ounces with the pillars, add a few ounces for epoxy. I originally wanted to flute the barrel , but both Bartlein and my smith recommended against it. Bartlein will flute a #3, which then weighs about as much as a 2B.

About the only places you're going to save serious weight are your barrel profile/length and your stock. Light stocks = $$$

 

[Okie_Poke]

@35 Whelen Thank you very much for the pictures and measurements. Your continued feedback in this thread has been extremely helpful and appreciated. You've sold me on trying to get the 225 TSX to shoot out of this rifle. 225 TSX and 250 Partitions are going to be the first bullets I try, I think.

@sage5907 I never doubted you. I just need to decide where I want this rifle to land weight wise, how much I want to spend, and what I want it to look like.

I have a Tikka 30-06 that weighs under 8 pounds scoped up and field ready with an ugly black synthetic stock. It is my "lightweight" purpose-built rifle for elk, carrying around all day, and doing whatever I need a rifle to do. I have a couple of other rifles that weight in the 9 to 9 1/2 pound range. While not nearly as easy to carry as my Tikka, they aren't horrible like my 12 1/2 pound Bergara HMR. I have a 30-06 in a Boyd's stock that weighs 9 1/4 pounds now, and I've carried it elk hunting. I did buy the Tikka to replace it, but I don't believe the weight hindered me before (I'm not getting any younger, however). One reason I'm leaning towards a heavier rifle for this build is the anticipated recoil from the Whelen. Using an online recoil calculator my Tikka kicks with about 24 ft-lbs of energy running 180s at 2750. A Whelen, in a 9 pound rifle, will kick somewhere in the neighborhood of 28-31 ft-pounds. That's about the same as a 300 Win Mag in an equal weight rifle shooting 180-200 grain pills. Dropping the weight to 8 pounds increases recoil to 32-35 ft-lbs. When taking a shot while hunting, who would notice? But I'll probably shoot this rifle a lot more at the range than in the field (sadly). I'm not exactly recoil sensitive, but 30-06 is the largest rifle I've shot and I'm mindful that everyone shoots better when a rifle recoils less. Still, if I ever go chase wapiti in Wyoming or Montana, I'll probably take this Whelen along, and I don't want to cuss it or leave it at camp just because it's too heavy. When I think about elk hunting, I am inclined to agree with you all about the synthetic stocks. I just prefer the look of wood, especially for this rifle. I know McMillan has their McWoody finish and there are others, but $$$$. Lots of competing interests to balance here.

As far as the scope goes, I don't find a 20 ounce scope to be unwieldy on a hunting rifle. I have a 3-15 VX5 on my Tikka and love the thing. I know I could get a lighter scope and reduce weight more, but I'm not trying to build a sheep rifle here. I haven't settled on my scope choice for sure yet, but my experience with the 3-15 VX5 has led me to believe a 2-10 VX5 with a firedot would be a great choice for this particular rifle. If I did want to save weight (and money), a 3.5-10 VX3 would do it. I have no doubt a fixed power 4x would be great too; I'm just so used to variables I'm hesitant to try one. Maybe I should.

@Chuck R. Thanks for the pictures and rifle weight. Nice rifle. The bolt work looks to be well done. I didn't really think I wanted anything like that done, but now I'm not sure. I've gotten somewhat fond of my slightly oversized bolt knobs on a couple of other rifles . . . Also, I have priced a few quality stocks while ruminating on this build, and pricey is right. I was at one point toying with a 280 AI build that would have been a more dedicated mountain rifle, and boy did that get expensive quick.

 

[sage5907]

@sage5907 I never doubted you. I just need to decide where I want this rifle to land weight wise, how much I want to spend, and what I want it to look like.

What I found out when I got older was that there wasn't any need to carry a big heavy rifle when hunting. My 338-06 weighs 8 pounds 6 ounces with a 22 inch barrel and I can handle the recoil very easy by shooting the rifle from an upright position. With all the tall grass and low brush a hunter gets into I can't figure out how anyone would depend on the prone position for any kind of shot. Also, I get just as good long range accuracy and am just as confident with a 22 inch barrel as I used to be with the 24 inch barrels. When I lift my rifle and fire a shot I plan on hitting the animal. Don't get me wrong, I have had rifles with heavy 26 inch barrels and 20 ounce scopes but those days are gone. A hunter who practices from an upright position and practices often can make easy hits on animals way out past 300 yards with an 8 pound rifle and I see no handicap with using 8 pound hunting rifles with small diameter 22 inch barrels. In order to enjoy the hunt a rifle should be user friendly and that means easy to carry and easy to use. My days of Colorado hunting are over but I should have been a lot smarter when I was young. All of my hunting now is in Oklahoma and we have tall hills and deep canyons so I still think about easy to carry and easy to use. Chuck R has a great rifle in post #102 and I would handle it with affection but as to a scope I am in the same use category as 35 Whelen with a lighter weight 2-7 or 3-9 variable.

 

[Chuck R.]

Sometimes the barrel length is more about balance that performance. I agree, very little difference in performance from a 22" to a 24", when you run the numbers through a ballistic calculator to quantify the effect, the difference in range is minimal at best, 20-30 yards.. maybe.

But the difference in weight is also pretty negligible. Using the PacNor calculator the difference in a #2 sporter with 22" barrel VS 24" .35" bore barrel is:

2.96 Lbs (47 .36 Ounces) for a 22" tube
3.09 Lbs ( 49.44 Ounces) for a 24" tube
So a delta of 2.08 Ounces, all other dimensions being equal.

Okie,

I've got a VX6HD 2-12x42 on my M48 in .270, which coincidently is a few ounces heavier than my 300WM with it's sporter weight barrel, just goes to show you what carbon fiber gets you:

And IMHO it's just about perfect for an all around scope. I've used it on whitetails, mulies and antelope out past 400yds. The weight at 19.9 ounces is .2 ounces heavier than your VX5. The 3-18x50 is heavier at 22.9 ounces, but I was going for a little more range for mule deer and knew what my weight savings was with the stock and barrel profile.

 

[ThomasT]

I did this same game in the past and considered having my old from the 1960s Remington 700 bored out to a 35 Whelen. Then I thought if I really wanted to go bigger I would do it right and just buy a 338 Win Mag or a 375 H&H. Right now I am rereading my Finn Aagaard books and he makes a 375 sound like the best round ever. I even looked last week on GB and there are several 375 H&H rifles listed for what I consider a reasonable price. There were a couple of push feed Winchester model 70s listed for around $1500. Now you have a real powerhouse of a rifle.

I even had the idea once that I was sure had never occured to anyone but me about taking a 338 case and necking it up to 375 so it would work in a standard action. The case capacity was almost the same as a 375 H&H and should give almost the same performance. I mentioned my brain child to my gunsmith. He smiled and yes that was a good idea. Then he shattered my dream and said. "I have one". What??? Yes, hold on. He went and got this gorgeous rifle he had built with a 338 case necked up to 375 and he had dies and loads for it. When he went out of business and closed his shop I had forgot about that gun. Had I of remembered I would have bought it from him at about any price he asked. Its too late now.

Now with the neurapathy in my lower legs and feet walking the mountains in Colorado is over for me. I'm glad I got to kill two Elk. One with a 54 caliber Hawken and the second with an 8mm Mauser rifle built by my grandfather for my dad that has now been passed on to my oldest son.

This is a great thread and I have read every post. I guess my chances of getting a bigger bore are over. I guess I will just have to be happy with the two 30-06 rifles I have now. The old model 700 and a very nice Ruger model 77 MKII. With the right bullet I can kill anything I will ever again hunt. And unlike most other calibers the bullet selection is huge. But in reality you only need one bullet. A Nosler 180gr Partition would do all I need a 30-06 to do.

 

[sage5907]

This is a great thread and I have read every post. I guess my chances of getting a bigger bore are over. I guess I will just have to be happy with the two 30-06 rifles I have now. The old model 700 and a very nice Ruger model 77 MKII. With the right bullet I can kill anything I will ever again hunt. And unlike most other calibers the bullet selection is huge. But in reality you only need one bullet. A Nosler 180gr Partition would do all I need a 30-06 to do.

If you're hunting with a 30-06 and a 180 grain Nosler Partition you're not giving up anything. If I think my shot will be at a longer range I will hunt with a 280 Remington with a 140 grain Nosler Partition or if I am hunting in heavy cover or in really cold weather I will take a 338-06 with a 180 grain Nosler AccuBond , but my 30-06 with a 165 grain Nosler Partition is always close at hand. I have one particular 30-06 that is a lucky rifle that seems to find big bucks, and among my trophy deer mounts are seven whitetail deer taken with a 30-06. When the conditions are adverse and I am hunting in really rough country and walking long distances I usually carry a 30-06 and I am comfortable with that choice. The Nosler Partition is a great bullet and when the bullet hits it makes a big whap and the animal goes down.

 

[sage5907]

I've got a VX6HD 2-12x42 on my M48 in .270, which coincidently is a few ounces heavier than my 300WM with it's sporter weight barrel, just goes to show you what carbon fiber gets you:

And IMHO it's just about perfect for an all around scope. I've used it on whitetails, mulies and antelope out past 400yds. The weight at 19.9 ounces is .2 ounces heavier than your VX5. The 3-18x50 is heavier at 22.9 ounces, but I was going for a little more range for mule deer and knew what my weight savings was with the stock and barrel profile.

Chuck R do you actually shoot your rifle using this tripod and if you do where do you put your legs? I am tall and lean and have tried a tripod and my legs are always in the way. I could see it would work if the front leg on the tripod was extended longer that made the back legs sit straight up and down.

 

[Chuck R.]

Chuck R do you actually shoot your rifle using this tripod and if you do where do you put your legs? I am tall and lean and have tried a tripod and my legs are always in the way. I could see it would work if the front leg on the tripod was extended longer that made the back legs sit straight up and down.

Yup, but like anything the key is practicing to find the positions that works for you. There's also a learning curve with building positions and what distances you're good for with the increased (or decreased) stability. When we get ready for the season I set up a CoF on my back hill so we can practice from field positions:

I also practice quite a bit with a .22LR and .223.

Different rifle, with just a golite bag on the tripod head:

The tripod comes with a whole lot of "flexibility", from using it prone to standing. The adjustable legs adapt readily to whatever terrain your faced with. There are 3 different angle settings, so you could get what you're looking for. I'm fortunate in that I can still sit cross legged and get low enough to get my elbows into my knees. A very, very stable position is to put my backpack on my lap for my elbows, it's about like shooting from a bench. Like everything, the closer I am to the ground, the more stable I am.

Pic from a mule deer hunt in MT in 2022, not a lot of cover and positioned on a forward slope, this was no chit -15 windchill:

Pic of a friend of mine practicing:

My setup is about $650 total and weighs just under 5lbs. Spend more and you can get even lighter. There's a lot of info available on the net, just need to sort out what works for you.

 

[sage5907]

Chuck R, great pictures! I can see how that works. In the Montana picture you look like what was said by an old duck hunter, "now we just get comfortable and wait."

 

[35 Whelen]

With all the tall grass and low brush a hunter gets into I can't figure out how anyone would depend on the prone position for any kind of shot.

One uses the shooting position that works for the situation at hand.
During the time I was taking annual elk hunting trips I began competing in local High Power competition. It was a VERY humbling experience and taught me more about shooting than I had learned in the previous 40 years of my life. The positions used in said competition are invaluable in the field if one knows how and when to use them.
The larger of the two bulls pictured above was jumped at the head of a canyon. As he crashed out of the timber below, I had my fanny pack in my right hand and my rifle in my left. In less than 5 seconds I was in the sitting position, ankles crossed, left arm wrapped in the sling, and taking the shot, just like I had been taught for the Sitting Rapid Fire portion of High Power.
The smaller bull was also in the head of a canyon only 5x further away. It was just a matter of dropping into the prone position, wrapping my left arm in the sling and taking the shot.
I've probably killed more game from the prone position than all others combined. These positions don't always work but they'll cover most situations.

35W

 

[Okie_Poke]

I've really appreciated everyone's feedback and comments throughout this thread. So, I'm going to keep bringing you along on my journey here. For better or worse, I'm doing this as a Rem/Age conversion where I will install a prefit barrel using a barrel nut. Barrel make and contour still to be determined, but there are several options. Before ordering a barrel, though, I wanted to make sure I could get the old barrel off myself. Once I had all of the proper tools, it came off without too much fuss. Note: lead sheets/shims and rosin make all the difference in the world when using the Wheeler barrel vise with the wood blocks. Without them, I couldn't get the vice tight enough to keep the barrel from turning. With them, it took less than five minutes.

Below are some pics of the process, which I'm including along with my commentary in case someone finds them interesting or helpful. I'd never done this before.

Barrel in the vice, action in the wrench, ready to clamp down:



Close-up of the barrel after I spun the action off:



You can see the wood blocks compressed a fair bit. There used to be a small semi-circle that was supposed to grab the barrel. It's still there under the lead shims, but the blocks are definitely wear items in this process. Also note there's a fair bit of gunk on the threads near the recoil lug. I don't know if that's some kind of thread locker or what, but it sure doesn't look like anti-seize to me.

Here's the removed barrel:




Note you can see where the lead shims rubbed the finish off the barrel. Since I knew I was replacing this barrel I didn't really care about the finish on the barrel, but if I did care about it I would have used some leather or something as a buffer between the barrel and the lead shims.

Here's the action after removal:




And here's a look inside it:

 

[Okie_Poke]

More fiddling and what amounts to journaling. I've used a kitchen scale and gotten actual weights for the components I currently have.

Factory R700 long action and bolt weigh 1 pound 13 ounces:



Action plus all the ADL accoutrements (trigger, magazine, bolts, etc.) weight 2 pounds 5.3 ounces:




The factory sporter barrel weighs 2 pounds 5.8 ounces:



My Boyd's lightweight thumbhole stock weighs 2 pounds 14.2 ounces:



And the Nikon scope and (I think) Warne rings and bases weighed a combined 24.5 ounces (frankly heavier than I expected these to be):



Total weight of that rifle was just a bit over nine pounds. I'm not necessarily trying to make my Whelen build any lighter since I have a 30-06 that is lighter, but I'm not necessarily going for heavier either.

 

[1948CJ2A]

9 pounds on a Whelen should be fine. I think that's probably about where mine lives. Going lighter might be easier to carry but will increase recoil. My Whelen is a 1903 sporter that I had JES rebore. I shoot 225 gr Sierras from it and the recoil is just a firm push; nothing punishing or sharp.

 

[wombat13]

After reading several of the above post, I thought I'd add a few things.

Keep in mind, back when I was shooting all of these cartridges a LOT, I was sorting out a rifle that I would be using a LOT in brown bear country and also for hunting brown bear regularly, so I had some different needs than what I'm reading in many of the post here.

I didn't care if it was "cool", or held that tiny bit more of powder, I needed something totally reliable, with enough power/penetration to be 100% reliable on DG, not something to impress my friends. My life could be on the line and my friends who were with me, lives would be on the line too, I wasn't looking for something to shoot a deer or elk, I needed something that would penetrate corner to corner of a big animal, breaking bone and no 35 cal bullet that was less that 275 or 300 grains would do that. That meant I had to use a long action, otherwise the bullets would have to be seated too deep. this wasn't a "short action turns me on" kind of deal!

I really disliked hunting stocks made from other than wood, (for several reasons) so I knew that if I was going to use wood it had to be the lightest of the most stable woods and straight grained English fills that bill in spades. Sure, others look "cooler", but once again, I didn't care about that.

Bottom line is, there's NO WAY I was going to take a chance on the Whelen, let alone the Brn. Whelen, as even back then some were having ignition and head space issues. The .338-06 fixes ALL of those issues, has the best DG bullets (at that time) and had plenty of power/penetration to get the job done EVERY time, I made that choice and I still think it was the best choice between the two.

All of these cartridges are more power/penetration than needed for deer, so for that purpose they all work just fine.

DM

Given all of that, why didn't you just get a .375H&H?

 

[sage5907]

And the Nikon scope and (I think) Warne rings and bases weighed a combined 24.5 ounces (frankly heavier than I expected these to be):
Total weight of that rifle was just a bit over nine pounds.

Yeah, the big heavy scopes don't work very good for hunting where you have to carry the rifle long distances. You could easily get the total weight down to 8 1/2 pounds just by changing to a standard 3-9 x 40 scope.

 

[someguy2800]

I personally think weight of a rifle is relative. A 10lb rifle is more of a burden to someone that is 5'6" and 140 lbs than it is to someone that is 6'2" and 240 lbs. I'm more concerned with how a rifle handles and balances then I am about being + or - a pound. Every time I've tried to make weight a main priority on a build I've never really fallen in love with the end result.

 

[DM~]

Given all of that, why didn't you just get a .375H&H?

For many reasons, I did own and test that idea though.

In the end, too heavy, holds one less round, and MOST importantly, at that time, too poor of quality of bullets for my purpose.

DM

 

[Rodfac]

One uses the shooting position that works for the situation at hand.
During the time I was taking annual elk hunting trips I began competing in local High Power competition. It was a VERY humbling experience and taught me more about shooting than I had learned in the previous 40 years of my life. The positions used in said competition are invaluable in the field if one knows how and when to use them.
The larger of the two bulls pictured above was jumped at the head of a canyon. As he crashed out of the timber below, I had my fanny pack in my right hand and my rifle in my left. In less than 5 seconds I was in the sitting position, ankles crossed, left arm wrapped in the sling, and taking the shot, just like I had been taught for the Sitting Rapid Fire portion of High Power.
The smaller bull was also in the head of a canyon only 5x further away. It was just a matter of dropping into the prone position, wrapping my left arm in the sling and taking the shot.
I've probably killed more game from the prone position than all others combined. These positions don't always work but they'll cover most situations. 35W

Absolutely.... building a field useable sitting (or kneeling if you're a small bore 50' competitor), and offhand position is an often overlooked benefit of High Power competition as it used to be run. Sixty seconds to fire ten shots @ 200 yards, with a reload after the 1st five, starting from standing then dropping to sitting with the sling is no easy trick...but will pay benefits in the fall when elk are crossing the aspen parks above Rifle Colorado. All of my elk were killed from that sitting position, all were good shots too. Too, you can practice dropping into a good sitting position in your living room....as you can offhand, dry firing on a convenient knot hole from your kitchen window. Both will replay with dividends. And....the .35 Whelen is one heck of an elk rifle. Best regards, Rod

 

[sage5907]

Every time I've tried to make weight a main priority on a build I've never really fallen in love with the end result.

I've never had that problem because all of my hunting rifles are just alike. When I go to my gun cabinet to get a different caliber the one I pull out feels and shoots just like the one I am putting back so there is no learning curve or getting used to. My neighbor made that comment about my rifles last month when he said every rifle you have is just like the others. I like a muzzle velocity of around 2900 fps and most of my rifles shoot between 2800 and 3000 fps so it is easy for me to adjust for distance or hit a moving target. I use bullets from 130 to 210 grain depending on the caliber and the only slower bullet in the group is the 210 grain Nosler Partition loads. Large diameter bullets kill quicker but the recoil is greater.

 

[someguy2800]

I've never had that problem because all of my hunting rifles are just alike. When I go to my gun cabinet to get a different caliber the one I pull out feels and shoots just like the one I am putting back so there is no learning curve or getting used to. My neighbor made that comment about my rifles last month when he said every rifle you have is just like the others. I like a muzzle velocity of around 2900 fps and most of my rifles shoot shoot between 2800 and 3000 fps so it is easy for me to adjust for distance or hit a moving target. I use bullets from 130 to 210 grain depending on the caliber and the only slower bullet in the group is the 210 grain Nosler Partition loads. Large diameter bullets kill quicker but the recoil is greater.

I’m kinda the same way. My sweet spot for velocity is about 2700-2800 fps and until recently I had the means to send bullets from 17 to 270 grains at that velocity. I just sold my 375 to build a 338 so when that’s done I’ll have 17-250 grains.

My rifles are pretty standardized in 3 categories. I have 5 H&R handi rifles which are all setup about the same, and a whole bunch of AR’s that are all setup the same way except for caliber and optic. My bolt rifles are a Lithgow la101 in 17 hmr, and a Lithgow LA102 in 308. I liked the LA102 so much I sold 3 of my other rifles and I ordered 2 more LA102’s in 6.5cm last week. One will stay 6.5 and the other is going to get rebarreled to 338. So I’ll have 4 basically identical bolt rifles in 4 different calibers to cover different purposes. When I find something I really like I’m all in on it.

 

[Mercy Me]

I prefer the 338-06. Its not hard to reload, as the brass can be reformed from .270 or 30-06 brass or necked down 35 whelen.I like the bullet assortment available, and with today's bullets there is not much difference in on game performance. I think the 338-06 gets the nod for better ballistics.

 

[Mercy Me]

9.3mm x 62mm

Another + 1 for 9.3mm x 62mm

 

[sage5907]

So I’ll have 4 basically identical bolt rifles in 4 different calibers to cover different purposes. When I find something I really like I’m all in on it.

That is exactly what I have done. I have identical bolt rifles in 4 different calibers to cover different purposes. Every rifle has the same stock, the same action, the same scope and the same trigger so when I lift each rifle to my shoulder I can't feel any difference. That has been the basis for my hunting success and has made me a confident rifleman. That and a lot of practice.

 

[KnightHawk]

That is exactly what I have done. I have identical bolt rifles in 4 different calibers to cover different purposes. Every rifle has the same stock, the same action, the same scope and the same trigger so when I lift each rifle to my shoulder I can't feel any difference. That has been the basis for my hunting success and has made me a confident rifleman. That and a lot of practice.

I have done the same with Winchester Featherweight rifles, but only up to 3 so far.
Rebore from 270 to 35 Whelen, 30-06, and 223.
I’m looking for a 6.5 Swede but no luck yet.
These are late 1980’s vintage. Beautiful rifles and fit me perfectly.