.357 Magnum for Deer?

[mcb]

So the setup
View attachment 791544
The 125grain XTP
(My new phone doesn't seem to want to work with the chronometer so I threw these cards together real quick)
View attachment 791545
And the 158grain XTP
View attachment 791546

The 125's averaged 1222 fps, Hodgdon listed 1529.
The 158's averaged 1135 fps, Hodgdon listed 1394.

So I'm a good bit under for both and the 158's were max load so I have no where to go with them.
This is however with a 6.5" barrel and my chronometer was 6-8' in front of the barrel, is says to set it at 10-15' but it worked a little closer most of the time. So I guess the question is how much speed could they drop in that 6-8', that would get my out of the barrel speed.

I looked at Cabelas and they had one lb of H110 but the bottle was severely deformed on two sides so I didn't get it. They didn't have any H4227 but had 1 of Lil'Gun so I grabbed that one. I'll have to make my own dipper but I'll try it next.

I have found the Hodgdon's 38 Special and 357 Mag load data is often very optimistic in the velocity department. Part of that is they are using a longer (and in many cases un-vented) test barrel. I also think some of the data is very old despite the nifty online data base it lives in.

At the muzzle I would expect a .200 BC (G1) bullet (a 158gr .357 is approximately that) to loose ~.7 fps for every foot from the muzzle. Put a .200 BC bullet in to a ballistic calculator and you get about 2.1 fps loss in the first yard starting with an initial velocity of 1200 fps. If you know the BC for the bullet you are using and know the distance to your Chronograph you can back into what muzzle velocity would have been required to measure that velocity at the chrono's location. JM Ballistic (http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_simp-5.1.cgi) is a good ballistic calculator for doing this as it will allow range increments of as small as 1 yard.

Are you weighing you loads? You talk about using dippers but for load work up weighing loads is usually a better method. I never hand dip without weighing.

 

[Toprudder]

(My new phone doesn't seem to want to work with the chronometer so I threw these cards together real quick)

I am assuming that you have the Caldwell chrono. If you do get the phone working with it, the app allows you to enter the distance to the chrono, and the ballistic coefficient for the bullet, and will then calculate the actual muzzle velocity.

My experience is that the Hodgdon data is often optimistic. Plus, they used a 10" barrel, you are using a 6.5" barrel.

 

[Buck13]

I have found the Hodgdon's 38 Special and 357 Mag load data is often very optimistic in the velocity department. Part of that is they are using a longer (and in many cases un-vented) test barrel.

Indeed! To expand on this: I'd expect a 200 to 300 FPS difference between a 10" test barrel and a 6" revolver. Cylinder gap alone is good for a loss of 50 to 100 FPS. OTOH, .357 doesn't have a big enough case to benefit much from a rifle-length barrel, so it will beat test data in a lever gun, but tops out around 16".
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/gaptests.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

Definitely don't assume that a load will match the published velocity unless it says they used an actual revolver, or that it is safe to increase a load if it doesn't get close to the published velocity! Without knowing their test equipment, you can't predict what actual numbers you get in a real-world gun.

I can't find it on their website right now, but IIRC Alliant, for example, uses 10" test barrels for their data. I may be confused about that.

Lyman's 49th manual used a 4" test barrel, IIRC, so a 6" revolver might be expected to match or slightly exceed their numbers. I assume the same data is in their 50th edition, but I haven't seen it.

 

[enine]

I am weighing the loads, I used the dipper to scale a half dozen times to make sure I'm consistent and getting the weight I expect. One of my goals is to have loads that I can just use the dipper. So if I only loose a small amount of fps then the <10' away from muzzle at the chronometer is pretty close to the speed at the barrel which means I'm no where near the 1500fps the bullets can handle. From reading earlier in this thread it seems I want the heaviest and fastest I can get (MOAR POWER!). So it seems my goal should be around 1450fps at my chronometer. I'll keep looking for some other magnum powder and test with lil'gun in the mean time.

 

[brewer12345]

Lil Gun made some very accurate loads in my lever 357, but be aware that it has a reputation for producing a LOT of heat. Take your time between groups to let the gun cool off and don't overdo it.

 

[Toprudder]

I can't find it on their website right now, but IIRC Alliant, for example, uses 10" test barrels for their data. I may be confused about that.

Alliant will have used either 6" or 10" barrels, depending on the particular bullet and load. They list the barrel length used on the website, but don't mention it in their free load manual. Confusing, if you are looking at their manual trying to get an idea of relative performance of their powders.

 

[ray15]

Alliant will have used either 6" or 10" barrels, depending on the particular bullet and load. They list the barrel length used on the website, but don't mention it in their free load manual. Confusing, if you are looking at their manual trying to get an idea of relative performance of their powders.

I don't find the Alliant data to be very complete. Between not listing pressures and not always identifying the precise projectile used it leaves much to be desired compared to Hodgdon or Western data.

 

[Toprudder]

I don't find the Alliant data to be very complete. Between not listing pressures and not always identifying the precise projectile used it leaves much to be desired compared to Hodgdon or Western data.

And that carries over to Speer data as well, since the same people produce the load data for both. If you notice, the Speer data for Alliant powders is identical to the Alliant load data.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Why has this thread gone so OT? Most of the last dozen posts have nothing to do with the topic.

 

[mcb]

Why has this thread gone so OT? Most of the last dozen posts have nothing to do with the topic.

We are at least partially on topic as we are still talking about 357 Magnum and the difficulties of getting good reloading data for it. All of this in the context of loading for use in a carbine to hunt deer with. JMHO but we don't seem that far off topic though it certainly has delved into the manutia of a particular aspect of the original topic.

 

[Toprudder]

Yeah, drifted a little, but all good.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

That was a hint, not an invitation lol.

 

[Buck13]

OK, I should have added explicitly that my posting of the link to BBTI was intended to point out what gains over test barrel data could be expected from longer barrels, as well as what losses to expect in revolvers.

Your Honor, it was secretly on-topic!

 

[enine]

We're discussing developing loads for deer hunting so it seems on topic to me. I found some Win296 at Fin,Feather and Fur today so I can load it up and test too.

 

[ray15]

We're discussing developing loads for deer hunting so it seems on topic to me. I found some Win296 at Fin,Feather and Fur today so I can load it up and test too.

Make sure to use a magnum primer and heavy roll crimp. 15-16.7gr. with the [email protected]" OAL by the Hodgdon data. 16.7 works for me. I see 1230fps from a 4" gun, so you should be 1300+ with your 6.5". Very accurate load.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Your Honor, it was secretly on-topic!

Now that's funny!

 

[enine]

So a summary of what I have so far:
Factory Winchester 110g ~1400fps average
Factory Hornady American 125g ~1600fps average
Hornady 125g XTP with max load of Longshot ~1200fps average
Hornady 158g XTP with max load of Longshot ~1100fps avergae

This is with a 6.5" barrel and chronometer under 10' in front of the barrel.

Previous posts suggest >140g so I'm testing with the 158g only now as I haven't found anything heavier locally.

 

[Dudedog]

Sort of off thread, so I admit guilt up front
H110/W296 makes nice Full Power .357s.
It is not supposed to be reduced so it really only does one thing but it does that very well.
As mentioned Mag primers and a firm crimp.
enine, please let us know how you like it.

 

[Eddietruett]

I have used .357 on deer with great success. Mostly with a 8 3/8" Model 686. Hornady 158gr XTP over 16gr of H110 and 15gr 2400. Both loads chrony over 1400fps IIRC. I limit my shots to around 75 yards and get very good expansion within that range. I also use .357 for Hogs. I use the Missouri HyTek Coated 180gr pushed at around 1250fps with 12gr of 2400. With the tough skin hogs I'm looking for penetration more than expansion and that load does a great job. Normally limit shots on large hogs to around 50 yards. Shot placement is the key but I'm very confident using a .357 in a revolver for hunting. Just got to know your limitations

 

[enine]

So I went to the farm and tested. Each of these was with Hornady 158g XTP and a Winchester small pistol magnum primer.
18g of Lil'Gun averaged 1367.5fps
15.3g of Win 296 averaged 1267fps
16.7g of Win 296 averaged 1341fps

So Lil'Gun was a little faster but the target for the 16'7g of 296 is really interesting, there are two small groups but the holes within each group are touching each other. Thats probably the most accurate I've ever been with any gun, pistol or scoped rifle.

 

[Eddietruett]

My experience with 296/H110 has always been the closer to max, the better the accuracy

 

[enine]

That 16.7 is the max load I found. Here is what it looks like, 6 shots, two in one group and 4 in the other.

I'm going to load some more of those and try at a longer distance.
This is the current range

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Lil Gun made some very accurate loads in my lever 357, but be aware that it has a reputation for producing a LOT of heat. Take your time between groups to let the gun cool off and don't overdo it.

For sure! You should treat Lil'Gun .357 Magnum loads in a levergun like you would any other rifle loads. Keep a close watch on your barrel temperature and allow it to cool inbetween groups.

 

[enine]

Lets see if this works
First time trying the camera, I noticed it picked up a lot of creek noise.
For some reason I can't get my current phone to read from the chrony so I was writing the speed down each shot. And it was hot and humid and my darn shorts kept wanting to fall down without my CCW holster inside them.

 

[Dudedog]

Don't know it for a fact but I have heard lots of people mention of issues of top strap cutting in .357 revolvers using lil'gun.
In a carbine yes, but I wouldn't take the risk for another 50-80 fps in my revolvers.


On topic with the thread, would I choose .357 to hunt deer if I had something larger, probably not.
But, lots of deer are taken with a bow and arrow so I would think .357 mag in a carbine would be a step up from that.