.357 Magnum self defence ammo - unfullfilled potential?
- Thread starter Krator
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Most people, I think, overstate the blast and recoil of the lighter bullets. In most emergency situations, the adrenaline is pumping so fast that I've heard of cases where the person shooting those lighter bullets don't even have their ears ringing after it's all over. The light of the muzzle blast can be blinding, but it also can blind the other guy -- and I've never been a great advocate of shooting in the dark. You have to know what you're shooting at or it's better to not take the shot.
The .357 lighter bullets are fine for overall protection from people, and it's okay for most animals. For bear, heavier bullets give plenty of penetration, and for people, the excess penetration makes it a poor choice. Not only does it lack stopping power in humans, its overpenetration endangers bystanders and those in adjoining rooms. The 125JHP has just the right penetration in people, but can still punch through car doors and blow out tires. That's why it was so popular with the Highway Patrol.
The .357 lighter bullets are fine for overall protection from people, and it's okay for most animals. For bear, heavier bullets give plenty of penetration, and for people, the excess penetration makes it a poor choice. Not only does it lack stopping power in humans, its overpenetration endangers bystanders and those in adjoining rooms. The 125JHP has just the right penetration in people, but can still punch through car doors and blow out tires. That's why it was so popular with the Highway Patrol.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Which doesn't mean permanent damage won't occur. The first time I was wounded was with an RPG 7, the second we ran over an anti-tank mine. I didn't actually HEAR either one -- but they have had a massive impact on my hearing.
That's why I carry an M1911 instead of a .357 Mag revolver.
Phaedrus/69
Member
Meh, the Black Talon wasn't really all that great. Nor did it really go away. It lost the black Lubaloy coating and got renamed.
MCgunner
Member
For self defense, I think 12" is ideal penetration. Most ANY perp I'd ever fired on, God forbid, would be at very close range and a frontal shot probably over 99 percent probability. I want to avoid too much penetration due to liability. Texas law says:
That said, heavy bullets in this caliber have another advantage you don't address. In my chronographing, I've found that the heavier bullets lose MUCH less in short barrels vs light bullets. I load a 140 for carry, 552 ft lbs out of a 2" barrel. I could not get 400 ft lbs from typical slow powders in a 125 grain bullet due to the fact that the bullet exits the barrel before the pressure peak. It's HELL for loud and could light up the Astrodome, but it doesn't perform. The heavier bullets accelerate slow enough that I chronographed a 180 grain XTP at over 660 ft lbs from a 2.3" SP101, same bullet pushing only 785 ft lbs from a 6.5" Blackhawk. Now, Buffalo Bore shows a rip snortin' 125 grain bullet from a 2" barrel, but I've yet to figure how they're doing that. I've tried faster powders, but no way I can match their performance with stuff like Blue Dot or Unique. The magnum works best with SLOW powders in my experience. That Buffalo Bore 125 grain load is the exception to the rule, I suppose, if those figures are real. Some day I'll take a second mortgage out on the house so I can buy a box to test.
For now, I carry my 140 Speer bullet load. The 125 grain stuff made its reputation in police revolvers of 4 to 6". I cannot deny the 125 is probably the best bullet in medium frame 4" or more barrels just on street record, but in 2" guns, it loses a bit. In my testing, the 140 grain load is the best compromise. Besides, it shoots to POA in my revolver. The heavies shoot WAY high. Haven't tried a 125 in THIS gun, but the SP101 shot to POA with it, too, just didn't have the horsepower in the short barrel.
That said, heavy bullets in this caliber have another advantage you don't address. In my chronographing, I've found that the heavier bullets lose MUCH less in short barrels vs light bullets. I load a 140 for carry, 552 ft lbs out of a 2" barrel. I could not get 400 ft lbs from typical slow powders in a 125 grain bullet due to the fact that the bullet exits the barrel before the pressure peak. It's HELL for loud and could light up the Astrodome, but it doesn't perform. The heavier bullets accelerate slow enough that I chronographed a 180 grain XTP at over 660 ft lbs from a 2.3" SP101, same bullet pushing only 785 ft lbs from a 6.5" Blackhawk. Now, Buffalo Bore shows a rip snortin' 125 grain bullet from a 2" barrel, but I've yet to figure how they're doing that. I've tried faster powders, but no way I can match their performance with stuff like Blue Dot or Unique. The magnum works best with SLOW powders in my experience. That Buffalo Bore 125 grain load is the exception to the rule, I suppose, if those figures are real. Some day I'll take a second mortgage out on the house so I can buy a box to test.
For now, I carry my 140 Speer bullet load. The 125 grain stuff made its reputation in police revolvers of 4 to 6". I cannot deny the 125 is probably the best bullet in medium frame 4" or more barrels just on street record, but in 2" guns, it loses a bit. In my testing, the 140 grain load is the best compromise. Besides, it shoots to POA in my revolver. The heavies shoot WAY high. Haven't tried a 125 in THIS gun, but the SP101 shot to POA with it, too, just didn't have the horsepower in the short barrel.
Well, I can't agree.
People rarely stand perfectly frontally, explosing whole width of the chest.
f.e. every martial art teaches you to stand more or less diagonally - and there's 10000 scenarios whenthe perp may not stand just the right way exposing his front.
People also have a nasty tendency to keep their hands in front of their body - big guy with winter clothes on and things may get nasty if you hit their arm the bullet has to pass through thick muscle, then through the sleeve (and it's absolutely possible it'll keep going through that sleeve for quite some time), then the jacket, then muscle, ribs etc.
Now, do you really want the bullet to stop in the middle of the ribcage? The further it goes, the better - it may strike 2 lungs instead of one, reach the spine, cause more bleeding.
12" is a MINIMUM for a reason, and more than that is better.
Also, I doubt there are many cases of people seriously injured/killed by an overpernetrating large diameter JHP.
And generally the main point of heavy ammo is the performance vs report - Black Talon doesn't really penetrate much further than 125 JHP, but it does so while generating noticeably less noise.
People rarely stand perfectly frontally, explosing whole width of the chest.
f.e. every martial art teaches you to stand more or less diagonally - and there's 10000 scenarios whenthe perp may not stand just the right way exposing his front.
People also have a nasty tendency to keep their hands in front of their body - big guy with winter clothes on and things may get nasty if you hit their arm the bullet has to pass through thick muscle, then through the sleeve (and it's absolutely possible it'll keep going through that sleeve for quite some time), then the jacket, then muscle, ribs etc.
Now, do you really want the bullet to stop in the middle of the ribcage? The further it goes, the better - it may strike 2 lungs instead of one, reach the spine, cause more bleeding.
12" is a MINIMUM for a reason, and more than that is better.
Also, I doubt there are many cases of people seriously injured/killed by an overpernetrating large diameter JHP.
And generally the main point of heavy ammo is the performance vs report - Black Talon doesn't really penetrate much further than 125 JHP, but it does so while generating noticeably less noise.
MCgunner
Member
Well, I worry a bit about over penetration with the 140 bullet. In hogs, it penetrates heavy cartilage, shoulder bone, and exits when shot point blank in the trap. That doesn't make me warm and fuzzy, but I do think there's plenty of penetration there. 200+ lb hogs are one HELL of a lot tougher to penetrate than a human. I've used hogs as my test medium over the years because I've trapped and eaten a lot of 'em. I've shot 'em with everything from a NAA mini revolver in .22Lr (head shot) to larger calibers in the shoulder. Acutally, a 158 grain FBI load in .38 was pretty impressive regards to just pure penetration, though nothing seems to put 'em down as fast as .357 magnum except perhaps a heavy .45 Colt load. A 255 grain cast .45 at 950 fps ain't that impressive. The 300 grainer at 1120 fps, though, well, it works.
I give a nit for what "martial artists" do, your average street punk ain't Bruce Lee. But, I could shoot Bruce Lee in the butt and chances are, he'd call off the attack. If nothing else, he wouldn't be doing round house kicks 4 feet in the air anymore. As well as that 140 grain load works on hogs, even shot a small one free ranging pig with it at 17 yards that was DRT fired from a 3" barrel, I have confidence in the load, put it that way, just from the experience of killing things with it.
A 255 grain cast .45 at 950 fps ain't that impressive. The 300 grainer at 1120 fps, though, well, it works. I give a nit for what "martial artists" do, your average street punk ain't Bruce Lee.
But, I could shoot Bruce Lee in the butt and chances are, he'd call off the attack. If nothing else, he wouldn't be doing round house kicks 4 feet in the air anymore. As well as that 140 grain load works on hogs, even shot a small one free ranging pig with it at 17 yards that was DRT fired from a 3" barrel, I have confidence in the load, put it that way, just from the experience of killing things with it.MCgunner
Member
You're willing to bet 20 years in the pen on that? All I want to do in a bad situation is stop the attack. I don't wish to go to prison for hurting someone down the street I didn't even know was there. In a crowded restaurant or something, the probabilities go WAY up.
I cannot argue with that logic. If a 180 grain load from a 2" gun can perform like a 125 grainer out of a 6" gun, why wouldn't I prefer it? I just haven't seen the load, yet. In this we totally agree. There needs to be better heavy bullet self defense options. I just don't want too much penetration, that's all. The heavies work better out of short barrels typical of carry guns and are easier on the ears and eyes at night or indoors.
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I shot .357 out of a 2" barrel the federal 140 grain Barnes. 4 layers of denim went through all 15" of gel with .625" of expansion. With 1" beef bone in the gel the barnes blew the bone apart and sprayed the whole cavity with bone fragments and .55 inches of expansion, all 15" of gel was penetrated.
I'm happy with that performance from a 2" pocket gun.
Here is the video. I was testing .380 but knew I'd have enough gel left to test the Barnes in .357. I'm not much of a videographer, so sorry in advance about the crappy video quality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l6vrb4Z-Lk
I'm happy with that performance from a 2" pocket gun.
Here is the video. I was testing .380 but knew I'd have enough gel left to test the Barnes in .357. I'm not much of a videographer, so sorry in advance about the crappy video quality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l6vrb4Z-Lk
MCgunner
Member
Thanks for the gel test. Kinda confirms what I've seen in hogs with a 140, but mine are Speer bullets at 1333 fps average measured from 5 shots over the chronograph. I do know they work just fine on pigs.
@ McGunner: first of all - I'm glad we both agree that 180gr bullets apparently have some potential when it comes to SD.
Now, on topic of penetration - I simply consider 15" penetration much better than 12". Over 16" is most likely too much indeed. But in my opinion the risk of too little penetration impacting you negatively is much larger than the risk of SLIGHTLY too much penetration (slightly because I'm not asking for 18" or anything) putting you into trouble.
There are simply no cases known to me of bullets passing through people and then killing/seriously injuring other people.
Almost all of the collateral damage comes from missed shots anyway.
BTW where I live no court would consider you guilty if by some semi-miraculous course of events said bullet indeed passed through the perp and then hit sombeody.
And it doesn't take a Bruce lee to stand in a diagonal position, as I've said, there are milions of possible scenarios where the attacker is standing at an angle.
But I understand your point. And you understand mine, so we can agree to disagree
@pps: looks indeed interesting. I remember reading some tests where this bullet didn't really expand much and penetrated a lot and the conclusion was that it was a hunting bullet. Apparently they must have fixed the shortcomings of the round.
Now, on topic of penetration - I simply consider 15" penetration much better than 12". Over 16" is most likely too much indeed. But in my opinion the risk of too little penetration impacting you negatively is much larger than the risk of SLIGHTLY too much penetration (slightly because I'm not asking for 18" or anything) putting you into trouble.
There are simply no cases known to me of bullets passing through people and then killing/seriously injuring other people.
Almost all of the collateral damage comes from missed shots anyway.
BTW where I live no court would consider you guilty if by some semi-miraculous course of events said bullet indeed passed through the perp and then hit sombeody.
And it doesn't take a Bruce lee to stand in a diagonal position, as I've said, there are milions of possible scenarios where the attacker is standing at an angle.
But I understand your point. And you understand mine, so we can agree to disagree
@pps: looks indeed interesting. I remember reading some tests where this bullet didn't really expand much and penetrated a lot and the conclusion was that it was a hunting bullet. Apparently they must have fixed the shortcomings of the round.
MCgunner
Member
WOW, what jurisdiction would THAT be? Sure ain't Texas. I think you'd best be SURE of that, too. kill a 2 year old accidentally and see if it holds.
I've read about people being hit accidentally, whether missed shot or whatever, and the perp being caught. There was a woman killed in her bed in Houston the other day result of a gang shootout outside her home. Probably spraying and praying shooting upside down or something, but it is punishable by the above statute regardless of if it was a "good shoot" (not the case here) or not. Even heard about one incident of a round from a shooting range killing someone some distance outside the range. Actually, I know a guy that was hit in the foot from a stray .223 round. They never caught the moron who fired it.Well, I don't intend to be the first one you hear about.
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Brett Byers AKA Slow
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I really like those scalloped Remington 158 grain and I like Winchester Silvertip 145 grain. I would like to see Federal come out with some HST .357 bullets/ ammunition that weigh 158 and 180. The velocity could be ~ 1250fps on the 158 and 1000-1100 on 180 grain. These should offer excellent defensive possibilities in 2"-4" barrels and adequate hunting loads in 4- 6" plus barrels on thin skin game with good shot placement @ ~ 50 yds.
tipoc
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Just a word on the "If it ain't broke don't fix it" line...If you actually think that then you'd be in favor of heavier rounds for self defense.
It was in 1935 or so that the .357 Magnum was introduced with 158 gr. bullets being standard. Standard because that was the common weight of self defense bullets used in the 38 Spl. at the time and it carried over to the 38 Heavy Duty and finally the 357 Magnum. It was with that bullet weight the the .357 developed it's reputation as a manstopper. That is as a useful self defense round.
It wasn't until the late 70s-early 1980s that Super Vel came out with 110 and 125 gr. bullets at around 1400 fps from a 4" barrel. They made a loud splash. Other manufacturers followed suit. They became a popular choice.
But there has never been reliable evidence that they worked better than 158 gr. bullets or 140 gr. or 148 gr. The only "evidence"is the "one shot stop" statistics from Marshal and Sanow.
If a 185 gr. bullet is useful from a 44 Spl. or in 45 acp than a slightly faster one from a .357 can do the job as well.
The weight of a bullet does, in general, help penetration. But it's the construction of the bullet that plays more of a role in that and allows for expansion and penetration.
tipoc
It was in 1935 or so that the .357 Magnum was introduced with 158 gr. bullets being standard. Standard because that was the common weight of self defense bullets used in the 38 Spl. at the time and it carried over to the 38 Heavy Duty and finally the 357 Magnum. It was with that bullet weight the the .357 developed it's reputation as a manstopper. That is as a useful self defense round.
It wasn't until the late 70s-early 1980s that Super Vel came out with 110 and 125 gr. bullets at around 1400 fps from a 4" barrel. They made a loud splash. Other manufacturers followed suit. They became a popular choice.
But there has never been reliable evidence that they worked better than 158 gr. bullets or 140 gr. or 148 gr. The only "evidence"is the "one shot stop" statistics from Marshal and Sanow.
If a 185 gr. bullet is useful from a 44 Spl. or in 45 acp than a slightly faster one from a .357 can do the job as well.
The weight of a bullet does, in general, help penetration. But it's the construction of the bullet that plays more of a role in that and allows for expansion and penetration.
tipoc
MCgunner, you brought up a heavy 45 colt for whacking pigs. " except perhaps a heavy .45 Colt load. A 255 grain cast .45 at 950 fps ain't that impressive. The 300 grainer at 1120 fps, though, well, it works. "
Would my "mild" Ruger only load of 325 grains at 1120fps work for you?
If not, perhaps the same bullet cast solid launched by 23 grains of H110 @ 1300 fps might work on porky? Just for referance, the lower left bullet was a 158 grain .357 sjhp @ 1300fps that penetrated 17" in the media.
Would my "mild" Ruger only load of 325 grains at 1120fps work for you?
If not, perhaps the same bullet cast solid launched by 23 grains of H110 @ 1300 fps might work on porky?
Just for referance, the lower left bullet was a 158 grain .357 sjhp @ 1300fps that penetrated 17" in the media.
McGunner - how about we talk about probability?
If the probability is super-low, and apparently it is (no statistics that indicate otherwise), then you shouldn't really worrry about.
A lot people are carrying FMJ and similiar ammo.They may have something to worry about. But worrying about 3" "too much" penetration is from my perspective simply irrational (remember that creating an exit wound requires going through skin and muscle on the other side of the body, and for a fully mushroomed to .61 diameter bullet that means HUGE energy loss) - being a bit irrational is nothing bad, as they say, better be safe than sorry, but (in my opinion of course) you are actually sacrificing a bit of your own safety by using bullets that in some cases may not penetrate far enough to stop the threat.
Missed shot hitting somebody - now that's something that happens, but again v. infrequently in civilian shootings (police shootings are a different matter).
If you're willing to shoot the attacker, then you're dealing with a chance of a miss anyway. Using ammo with slightly higher penetration you only marginally increase the chance of trouble (by an insignificant amount), on the other hand - if that ammo is more effective, you increase your chances of survival. Fair deal if you ask me.
Also don't forget typical SD situation doesn't take place in a crowded area. Police shooting - that's a whole different matter.
In my country you're only responsible for the foreseeable, normal results of your actions as long, as your actions are justified.
JHP bullet penetrating the bad guy, continuing to fly and hitting some guy far away who you don't even see and actually hurting him badly is not something one can foresee. Of course spraying bullets left and right and hitting somebody with a missed shot would be a whole different matter..
BTW in Europe almost all interior walls will stop pistol bullets with ease. To penetrate typical interior wall in here you pretty much need an AK rifle. Concrete and bricks are reliable bulletstoppers so the typical concern about family/neighbour behind the wall is not really valid from my perspective. And once again - there is v. little chance a mushroomed JHP will actually be able to penetrate drywall and still have enough energy to seriously wound somebody. Remember - the diameter is much greater and so is the energy loss when passing through barriers.
If the probability is super-low, and apparently it is (no statistics that indicate otherwise), then you shouldn't really worrry about.
A lot people are carrying FMJ and similiar ammo.They may have something to worry about. But worrying about 3" "too much" penetration is from my perspective simply irrational (remember that creating an exit wound requires going through skin and muscle on the other side of the body, and for a fully mushroomed to .61 diameter bullet that means HUGE energy loss) - being a bit irrational is nothing bad, as they say, better be safe than sorry, but (in my opinion of course) you are actually sacrificing a bit of your own safety by using bullets that in some cases may not penetrate far enough to stop the threat.
Missed shot hitting somebody - now that's something that happens, but again v. infrequently in civilian shootings (police shootings are a different matter).
If you're willing to shoot the attacker, then you're dealing with a chance of a miss anyway. Using ammo with slightly higher penetration you only marginally increase the chance of trouble (by an insignificant amount), on the other hand - if that ammo is more effective, you increase your chances of survival. Fair deal if you ask me.
Also don't forget typical SD situation doesn't take place in a crowded area. Police shooting - that's a whole different matter.
In my country you're only responsible for the foreseeable, normal results of your actions as long, as your actions are justified.
JHP bullet penetrating the bad guy, continuing to fly and hitting some guy far away who you don't even see and actually hurting him badly is not something one can foresee. Of course spraying bullets left and right and hitting somebody with a missed shot would be a whole different matter..
BTW in Europe almost all interior walls will stop pistol bullets with ease. To penetrate typical interior wall in here you pretty much need an AK rifle. Concrete and bricks are reliable bulletstoppers so the typical concern about family/neighbour behind the wall is not really valid from my perspective. And once again - there is v. little chance a mushroomed JHP will actually be able to penetrate drywall and still have enough energy to seriously wound somebody. Remember - the diameter is much greater and so is the energy loss when passing through barriers.
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MCgunner
Member
Of course it would work. My hot load shoots 1120 fps with only 300 grains and I have confidence it'd take anything in MY neck of the woods. This is why I don't see ever getting one of the new X frames just for hunting. Ain't no polar bears in Texas.
Krator, do as you wish, but I will stay on the safe side. The probabilities might be small, but I know of a couple of folks that have won millions on the lotto. I don't expect to, but still get a lotto ticket once in a while.
Walls? Most places I'm at in public in crowded areas are surrounded by glass, burger joints, restaurants, etc. It'd be hard to pick your background when you have to shoot or just die.
One cannot control the situation or expansion of the bullet or how much it will penetrate a target, but 12" seems plenty to me in jello, especially from a .357 magnum putting up serious energy. I seriously don't want to run the risk of hurting innocents, no matter how low you think are the probabilities. I carry in crowded stores, on crowded streets, in crowded restaurants. My weapon is not just for home defense. It goes everywhere with me. I don't know where your typical shooting occurs, but we have plenty of defensive shootings in convenience stores. There was a Lubys restaurant incident in the 90s you might google, was one of the reason Texas passed "shall issue" carry. Crowded places with money are where the BGs hit gangster style, not to mention banks. I think in Texas, a crowded restaurant, bank, or especially convenience store is a likely place to have to defend one's self.
Heck, I mostly just carry a .38, but when I go to the big city, I put the belt gun on, .357 magnum 2" and the .38 backs it up. Not much risk out here in the woods. I've only had to use it to take the head off a couple of cottonmouths recently. But, the .38 rides in a pocket and goes everywhere I go. I don't really think I need a magnum to stop a BG, but it's comforting to have the .357 along when I go out to the big city.
McGunner - I'm just trying to remember that 12" in the gel are the FBI minimum, not "optimum" or "maximum".
Also, during Miami Shootout 2 inches of penetration made the difference between instantly-fatal and "fatal in a few minutes wound" and this led to deaths and injury of several agents.
There is always a chance of something bad happening due to a little much penetration. But something really bad can also happen from a little... too little. So it's our choice, what kind of risk are we willing to take.
Now, remember that to penetrate though a human being you have to penetrate the skin and clothing twice. While a leather/denim jacket may create little resistance to a fast .357 diameter bullet, it'll create a LOT of issues for a mushroomed, much, much slower, 0,61 diameter projectile.
Even a simple t-shirt will create serious resistnace for a mushroomed bullet.
Now, after penetrating the perps skin, muscle and clothing for the second time, our mushroomed bullet has to pass some distance, further losing speed, and then penetrate clothing, skin, muscle and bone yet again.
Now, in Texas many things may look different. You have much warmer climate so less clothing etc. In colder states or where I live people wear multi-layered clothing for most of the year and this may be a big factor too.
A test where 12" gel block covered in 2 layers of denim on EACH side and loosely attached to it so the outer layer of denim can't just "move out of the way of projectile" - just like a real jacket can't - is shot with f.e. 180 grain Remington SJHP - around 17-18" penetration according to tests - and another block is placed behind the first one with 2 layers of denim on it too - would give us a good idea how big the danger really is. Or if there is any danger at all. My bet is
Now, a dead pig covered in denim + a gel block covered in denim would be interesting too. We have to remember gel =/= human tissue, and while it may give a rough estimation, it doesn't really simulate the situation where the skin and muscle is penetrated twice - it takes a lot more energy to create an exit wound with a mushroomed bullet through the toughest tissues - bone, skin and muscle, that form the outer layers of our body.
What do you think?
I would happily donate a few $ to anyone willing to perform such test.
Also, during Miami Shootout 2 inches of penetration made the difference between instantly-fatal and "fatal in a few minutes wound" and this led to deaths and injury of several agents.
There is always a chance of something bad happening due to a little much penetration. But something really bad can also happen from a little... too little. So it's our choice, what kind of risk are we willing to take.
Now, remember that to penetrate though a human being you have to penetrate the skin and clothing twice. While a leather/denim jacket may create little resistance to a fast .357 diameter bullet, it'll create a LOT of issues for a mushroomed, much, much slower, 0,61 diameter projectile.
Even a simple t-shirt will create serious resistnace for a mushroomed bullet.
Now, after penetrating the perps skin, muscle and clothing for the second time, our mushroomed bullet has to pass some distance, further losing speed, and then penetrate clothing, skin, muscle and bone yet again.
Now, in Texas many things may look different. You have much warmer climate so less clothing etc. In colder states or where I live people wear multi-layered clothing for most of the year and this may be a big factor too.
A test where 12" gel block covered in 2 layers of denim on EACH side and loosely attached to it so the outer layer of denim can't just "move out of the way of projectile" - just like a real jacket can't - is shot with f.e. 180 grain Remington SJHP - around 17-18" penetration according to tests - and another block is placed behind the first one with 2 layers of denim on it too - would give us a good idea how big the danger really is. Or if there is any danger at all. My bet is
Now, a dead pig covered in denim + a gel block covered in denim would be interesting too. We have to remember gel =/= human tissue, and while it may give a rough estimation, it doesn't really simulate the situation where the skin and muscle is penetrated twice - it takes a lot more energy to create an exit wound with a mushroomed bullet through the toughest tissues - bone, skin and muscle, that form the outer layers of our body.
What do you think?
I would happily donate a few $ to anyone willing to perform such test.
MCgunner
Member
I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it. I spend a little time most days on my back yard range making sure I can hit what I aim at. That's the most important thing that's in my control, I figure. Denim, t shirts, whatever. i don't feel like any .357 magnum load will bounce off. if the first one don't stop him, the second to the head will.
I guess I just love watching and reading about various tests.
Science behind violent high speed impact is simply fascinating, and watching it happen in slow motion...
I would simply love to see some overpenetration risk tests. They would help some people sleep at night for sure...
...or make some of them change their carry ammo.
And being able to hit the intended target is the most important thing when it comes to safety indeed.
It's been a pleasure to talk to you McGunner.
Science behind violent high speed impact is simply fascinating, and watching it happen in slow motion...
I would simply love to see some overpenetration risk tests. They would help some people sleep at night for sure...
...or make some of them change their carry ammo.
And being able to hit the intended target is the most important thing when it comes to safety indeed.
It's been a pleasure to talk to you McGunner.
MCgunner
Member
Oh, in the 80s, i got all in to exterior ballistics with rifles. Before PCs were common, I had a little toy Timex computer and wrote a really good exterior ballistics program in BASIC on it from derived equations from an article in "Rifle" magazine on the subject. After running load after load over the computer, I kinda saw a pattern. ROFL! I lost interest in it, but still have all the prints from a Tandy computer I had before I finally got a PC in the 90s.
These sorts of endeavors are fun, interesting, and they ad to our knowledge of how things work. But, I sorta don't take such exercises in mathematics or jello tests all that seriously anymore. Fun to play with and gives us things to argue about online, though, so I won't say they're a waste of time.
I've even thought about making my own ballistic jello after reading up on it. I lived in town, then, and it was several miles to the range. Just sounded too much like a pain to mess with. I'm set up now for it, or could. My range is in my back yard and I have a working old refrigerator on the back porch. But, meh, other projects I was going to do go unfinished. I've yet to start making my own black powder, got other things keeping me busy, but I always find a little time in the day to shoot.
These sorts of endeavors are fun, interesting, and they ad to our knowledge of how things work. But, I sorta don't take such exercises in mathematics or jello tests all that seriously anymore. Fun to play with and gives us things to argue about online, though, so I won't say they're a waste of time.
I've even thought about making my own ballistic jello after reading up on it. I lived in town, then, and it was several miles to the range. Just sounded too much like a pain to mess with. I'm set up now for it, or could. My range is in my back yard and I have a working old refrigerator on the back porch.
But, meh, other projects I was going to do go unfinished. I've yet to start making my own black powder, got other things keeping me busy, but I always find a little time in the day to shoot. Arizonan
member
Just gonna make this pretty simple concerning the best loads for the 357. I carry the Remington 357M1 or the Federal 357B. I carry a 4in Ruger GP100 and a Ruger Speed Six in 2 3/4. I have killed an attacking Rottweiler, 2 coyotes, 4 Javelina many jack rabbits , 2 badger. All were no further than 20 yards. Dropped the dog at 15 feet. All were one shot stops, and I mean instant stops.
I have never shot a person. I don't want to ever find out what shooting a person would be like. But its my opinion that a shot to the chest will instantly stop the threat. The rounds above are totally devastating. After opening the carcasses up, The internal damage was like a grenade had exploded inside the body cavities.
Old school ammo is still the best. Track record speaks for itself.
I have never shot a person. I don't want to ever find out what shooting a person would be like. But its my opinion that a shot to the chest will instantly stop the threat. The rounds above are totally devastating. After opening the carcasses up, The internal damage was like a grenade had exploded inside the body cavities.
Old school ammo is still the best. Track record speaks for itself.
The FBI considers 12 inches to be the minimum, and they will encounter the same speiecis of attackers that one will have to worry about in a self defense situation.
Close range, sure, but "a frontal shot probably over 99 percent probability"? Do you have any objective basis whatsoever for that belief?
We should all want to avoid too much penetration, but liability is only one reason. There real reason is danger to others.
The FBI considers 18 inches to be a reasonable maximum.
Texas law says:
I suggest that you make yourself knowledgeable about the definition of "recklessly."
And do be aware that excess penetration is but one risk in that regard. The risk of hitting an innocent with a bulllet that does not pass through an intended target is far greater.
See this by attorney Mario M acrid.
Two things:
- What "seems plenty" to you is consiered minimal by the real experts;
- what is it that you think "serious energy" accomplishes for you, if it is not penetration?
That's an excellent attitude.
I came to the conclusion long ago, independently from Kathy Jackson who has said the same thing, that when one recognizes danger and realizes the need to draw, the first thing to do is to think backstop.
Good.
Carrying two is a fine idea, but just what is it that you think your .357 gives you over a hot .38 with good defensive ammunition, other than penetration?
Yes indeed.
But make sure you are practicing the right things. Chances are that, in a serious defensive use of force encounter, you will be drawing fast and shooting fast and repeatedly at a moving target about the size of an iPad at a distance of 3 to 5 yards.
I seriously doubt that your hits will bounce off.
But I wouldn't put much hope at all in the idea of a one shot stop, or in being able to hit that part of a bobbing, charging head that contains the CNS.
Think upper chest, and think two, three, four, or five hits in rapid succession.
MCgunner
Member
Dr. Michael Courtney's research shows, and I've seen it in game, that the .357 magnum makes enough energy to affect tissue with the ballistic pressure wave. Courtney says that 500 ft lbs is a rough threshold. You can argue with me with your Facklerite fantasies all you want, but Fackler was a coroner, no more. Courtney is a physicist and his research follows my experiences in the field. Sure, crush cavity can kill, so can a sharp point on a blade. But, I don't discount the ballistic pressure wave made by the energy transfer of the bullet. It is for this reason I prefer the .357 magnum to the .38. I do, however, feel the .38 is adequate for self defense. I own a .380, but don't carry it anymore. .38 works, has a good track record.
So, you guys go ahead and turn this into a Fackler vs Courtney, crush cavity vs crush cavity plus ballistic pressure wave argument if you want. Been tere, done that. Plenty of stuff you can search on this board with that long worn out discussion. I'm out, tired of yappin' about it with the netspirts.
Some reading can be found here.... http://www.btgresearch.org/woundballistics.html
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