357 Magnum vs 45 ACP

[brnmuenchow]

Both will blow an intruder away, just so long as it's not some Kodiak Brown Bear! As far as the penetration issue: Use JHP's and not FMJ's like my father does with his .45ACP a .45ACP FMJ has way too much penetration in my opinion for home defense/ CHL purposes and causes unnessesary danger to anyone behind the intruder! (Although there is alway's a danger present when firing a gun in anger or defense!)

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

I haven't read any other posts. I apologize for potentially repeating someone's ideas.

According to ballistics tests, the .357, the .45 ACP, and the .40 S&W, when using the premium ammunition, all achieve a 96% one-shot stop rate. (http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm). Essentially, they exist at the intersection of penetration, bullet expansion... basically, DAMAGE CAUSED. I highly recommend any of these three as a self-defense gun.

My personal choice is the Glock 22 with premium ammunition. I enjoy revolvers, but prefer to have more than 5 or 6 shots. Speed loaders are also not as quick (for me, at least) as replacing a magazine. This leaves out .357 magnum (.357 sig is not an equal replacement.) .45 ACP guns are usually more expensive and still don't hold as many as the Glock 22 @ 15 rounds and quick reloading.

As a final caveat, the benefit of these three options over "next-best" options or even just lower-quality ammunition is negligible. A 9mm with quality ammunition, .38, .357 sig, 10 mm, etc... these are all fantastic as well.

That's my analysis!

 

[RinkRat]

I wounder if the cave men bickered like this over sticks and stones

aahhhhh fire good

 

[gglass]

End of debate!

 

[Prosser]

Oh, get it all.

Use .451 Detonics/Super and get 230 grains at 1100 fps, 200 grains at 1200 fps, or, if you like light bullets, 185's at 1350 fps.

Detonics, the company that started this whole thing, recommended 200 grain Speer flying ashtrays at 1200 fps. .357 velocity, 45 ACP bullet weight. What's not to like?

 

[texagun]

End of debate!

I doubt that your graphs will be the end of the debate..............
Which would you choose?

 

[Prosser]

Or, get out of the sandbox altogether:


The little ones on the right are 45 Super and .357 Magnum.
going left:
.45 Colt
.475 Linebaugh
.500 Maximum

When you look at the increase in power, we really should start this discussion with .45 Colt, which is what the .45 ACP fails to equal, even though that was the goal.

 

[MCgunner]

I have been known to carry a .22 magnum. I just figure I gotta put it where it counts.

As for power, .357 no question. I hunt deer and hogs with the .357. The .45 ain't enough pop for hunting. But, concealed carry involved the word "concealed" and I can't put a .45 nor a 6.5" .357 in my pocket, so I sorta like 9x19 +P and .38 +P for carry. I even have a neat little 9x18 Radom P64 for carry. It ain't always about the caliber, ya know.

 

[Prosser]

Sometimes it IS about the caliber. If I have to have 5 shots...

By the way, the title says it all. This IS about caliber.



Both these guns are .500JRH/short .500 S&W. Don't kick much with the right ammo.

 

[336A]

When you look at the increase in power, we really should start this discussion with .45 Colt, which is what the .45 ACP fails to equal, even though that was the goal.

No the .45 ACP was meant to provide the performance of the .45 S&W Schofield from a semi automatic platform, hence the 230gr bullet weight. IIRC Frankford arsenal only loaded the .45 Schofield with a modified smaller rim from 1877 until the adoption of the .38 Long Colt in 1892. The reason is that the .45 Schofield (.45 M1877) could be loaded in both the SAA and the 5,000 Schofield revovlers that the Army purchased. Powder charge was initially 28gr black powder & a 230gr bullet. As the years progressed it was modified to 30gr of powder and a 250gr bullet.

The Army rejected John Browning's initial design (model of 1905) of the .45 ACP because it used a 200gr bullet and specified that it have a 230gr bullet.

 

[MCgunner]

Sometimes it IS about the caliber. If I have to have 5 shots...

By the way, the title says it all. This IS about caliber.

Yeah, what'll fit in my pocket and be comfy all day long. IOW, to HAVE a gun. That won't. In fact, those are ridiculous. Sorta like sawing down a 12 gauge to carry IWB. I can't even belt carry, though, won't happen in south Texas.

 

[4thHorseman]

The 357 kills from one end and wounds from the other.

 

[Prosser]

336A

Thanks. I always thought the .45 ACP was created after the army went with the .45 Colt. I've never really figured out why with the Colt round pretty much being a 250 grain bullet, in the 900-1000 fps range, the .45 ACP wasn't designed to do this?

I also think John Browning might have had a good idea, using a 200 grain ball or flat point round in the 950-1000 fps range. Penetration would have been good, and the velocity would create a good sized wound channel.

I wonder if 200 grain ball is unstable enough to tumble in the target?

I also found it fascinating that Detonics later recommended, after reviewing
LEO shootings, using their various rounds, the 200 grain Speer Flying Ashtray at 1200 fps as being the most effective of the .45 bullets considered:
230's at 1100 fps, 200's at 1200 fps, and the 185's at 1350 fps.
The original question was:

"Which is best for personal defense? Which one packs the hardest punch? Are they pretty much equal when it comes to stopping power?"

The first question is certainly open for conjecture, and, considering the wide
variety of loads available, it's hard enough to get agreement on what are the best loadings for personal defense, in each caliber, much less compare the two.

The real problem is that bad guys are well, people, and they come in a wide variety of sizes, and weights, and makeups. So, do you think the guy that is going to attack you is going to be 135 pounds, or 350 pounds?
If you are trying to stop game animals that size, your choice of loadings and
calibers might be considerably different.

What works well on a 135 pound animal may not work at all on a 350 pound one, and so the question isn't really answerable.

Being able to just define the desired effect, penetration, etc. is difficult in this situation. If we presume that the bad guy will have a gun, and, he's pointing it at you, it is not unlikely that the bullet may have to penetrate
his arm/arms prior to hitting anything vital.

 

[DoggerDan]

There's a lot of different ways to rack and stack a bullet's effectiveness, ranging from the laws of physics to compiling statistics based on morgue reports. The problem with using the latter is that they don't include the ones who lived.

As for physics, there's more to the picture than the bullet's KE (1/2*m*v^2). There's also kinetic momentum (m*v) as well as both of those divided by the caliber (known precisely) or the expanded diameter (varies from round to round). Finally, one must consider the mean length of penetration (also varies from round to round).

Axioms:

1. Kinetic Energy is proportional to the amount of damage that will be done. This results primarily in shock caused by rapid loss of blood and blood pressure.

2. Kinetic Momentum is a rough indicator of the amount of impact the target will feel. This results primarily in the wallop that is felt, mostly via CNS effects.

3. Both KE and KM are important, as both are important to "stopping power," but in different ways.

4. A simple, yet workable means of comparing the "stopping power" between different rounds is to simply multiply KE and KM together, then take their square root.

Over the years I've gathered data on many rounds, and have compiled the following table, sorted on this value of stopping power (KME-root). Please note the results for the .357 rounds vary considerable, while the values for the .45 rounds fall into a fairly narrow range, the same as the values for the 9mm. The primary reason for the narrow range has to do with the operation of the the semi-auto. Revolvers, on the other handle anything down to firing just the primer.

You'll notice the .357 round with the most stopping power is just 9.54% greater than the .45 round with the most stopping power.

By that formula, of course.

Cartridge (Wb@MV) KME-root
.380 ACP (90 at 1000) 22.3
9mm Makarov (95 at 975) 22.6
.38 Spec. (125 at 850) 24.3
.38 Spec. (140 at 800) 24.8
.38 Spec. (158 at 760) 25.9
.38 Spec. +P (110 at 1000) 27.2
.38 Spec. +P (125 at 950) 28.7
.38 Spec. +P (158 at 890) 32.8
9mm Luger (115 at 1135) 34.4
.357 Mag. (140 at 1000) 34.7
9mm Luger (124 at 1100) 35.4
9mm Luger (147 at 990) 35.9
9mm Win JHP (147 at 990) 35.9
9mm Win Bonded PDX1 (147 at 1000) 36.4
9mm Luger (115 at 1180) 36.5
9mm Win Silvertip HP (147 at 1010) 36.9
.44 Spec. (240 at 750) 38.6
9mm Win Silvertip HP (115 at 1225) 38.6
9mm Win JHP (115 at 1225) 38.6
9mm Luger (124 at 1181) 39.4
.357 Mag. (110 at 1300) 40.4
.40 S&W (180 at 950) 41.3
.357 Mag. (125 at 1235) 42.5
.38 Super Auto +P (125 at 1240) 42.7
.38 Super (125 at 1240) 42.7
.40 S&W (135 at 1190) 43.4
.45 ACP (230 at 850) 44.6
.45 ACP (185 at 1000) 45.8
.45 ACP (200 at 975) 47.7
.45 Colt (250 at 860) 48.5
.357 SIG (125 at 1350) 48.5
.40 S&W (155 at 1180) 49.2
.45 Colt (200 at 1000) 49.5
.44 Rem. Mag. (200 at 1000) 49.5
.45 Colt (225 at 960) 52.4
.357 Mag. (125 at 1450) 54.0
.357 Mag. (158 at 1250) 54.7
10mm Auto (180 at 1150) 55.0
10mm Auto (155 at 1300) 56.9
.357 Mag. (180 at 1180) 57.1
.357 Mag. (140 at 1400) 57.4
.44 Rem. Mag. (240 at 1144) 72.7
.44 Rem. Mag. (200 at 1295) 73.0
.44 Rem. Mag. (240 at 1172) 75.4
.41 Rem. Mag. (210 at 1300) 77.1
.44 Rem. Mag. (240 at 1200) 78.1
.44 Rem. Mag. (300 at 1150) 91.6
.44 Rem. Mag. (265 at 1300) 97.2
.44 Rem. Mag. (225 at 1450) 97.3

 

[Prosser]

Well done, Doggerdan.

This seems to give a fairly decent relative table.

There are other factors. Lead bullets, or hard cast, start expanding when they hit stuff at around 1350 fps, so they tend to increase their wound channel.

I don't see how the table takes into account the type of bullet. LFN, HP, they all have different parts in the game.

What I do like about it is it sort of explains the really weird stuff with heavy bullets, in big calibers, at even lower velocities. There is something to be said for a large, heavy bullet that even going at moderate velocity, doesn't slow down much as it hits and penetrates the target.