38/357 taper crimp die choice

[ray15]

I acquired a 4" GP-100 in .357 Magnum yesterday and shot it for the first time today. I've not loaded 38/357 before, and am in the process of ordering dies. I'm going to be using Xtreme 125HP plated bullets, which have a cannelure and are thick-plated. Nonetheless I'm inclined to use a taper crimp, and need to choose a die from the dizzying array of options.

It looks like the Redding taper crimp die is popular, and I was going to order one. They list separate parts for 38 Special and .357 magnum. Is it true that neither of the two can do both 38 and 357? If not is there a taper crimp die that will?

 

[ray15]

Ahh, it's just Midway's site. It has choices for both calibers, but the part number is the same. Confusing.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I use a Lee FCD for most handgun crimping but when I feel the need for a taper crimp for the .38 Special I bought an inexpensive Lee .38 Special taper crimp die. It works well for me and I don't have a lot of money tied up in a die rarely use.

 

[cfullgraf]

If you are planning to load maximum level 357 Magnum loads and the bullets you plan on using have a cannelure, you will want to roll crimp (Redding calls it their Profile crimp). Otherwise, you may experience bullet jump when firing your gun. Sometimes, the bullet can jump out of the case enough to lock up your cylinder.

If your bullet does not have a cannelure, you will want a taper crimp but you probably will not be able to load them to full velocity without experiencing bullet jump.

Most of the manufacturers sell a 357 Magnum/38 Special die set. I know the RCBS sets come with a spacer that can be used so that the neck expanding die and seater/crimp die do not have to be adjusted when switching between cartridges. Redding offers a spacer but I'm not sure it is included with the combination die set or not.

A crimp die that says it is for 357 Magnum may not adjust enough to crimp the shorter 38 Special case. A 38 Special crimp die can be used to crimp 357 Magnum ammunition.

Redding lists a 357 Magnum/38 Special taper crimp die in their on line catalog so it will be capable of crimping both cartridges.

RCBS offers 357 Magnum/38 Special die sets with either a roll crimp seater die or a taper crimp seater die.

Redding's combination die set comes with the Profile crimp seater die and the taper crimp die is an additional purchase.

Redding's on-line catalog page with 357 Magnum/38 Special dies.

http://redding-reloading.com/online-catalog/20-handgun-die-sets-in-titanium-carbide

Hope this helps.

 

[ray15]

I use a Lee FCD for most handgun crimping but when I feel the need for a taper crimp for the .38 Special I bought an inexpensive Lee .38 Special taper crimp die. It works well for me and I don't have a lot of money tied up in a die rarely use.

I love the FCD die for 9mm, but as you know the 38/357 version is a roll crimp. I don't want to roll-crimp on the plated bullets if I can help it. I went ahead and ordered the Lee taper crimp die. Thanks for the vote of confidence.

 

[otblue]

https://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/hand-gun-dies/taper-crimp-die/

Lee makes a taper crimp die (38/357 part numbers are the same) but even they say it is no improvement over their current crimp/seater die.

I have taper crimp dies in various calibres from Lyman, RCBS, Redding and Hornady and apart from the external cosmetics, they all work OK, so you take your pick.

Personally if I was content (which I'm not ) with just one die set per handgun calibre I would choose the Lyman Premium Carbide 4 die set. It has everything you need to get you started including a taper crimp die.

 

[otblue]

Missed it by that much !!!

 

[Reeferman]

I roll crimp on plated bullets all the time that have a cannelure.

 

[ray15]

If you are planning to load maximum level 357 Magnum loads and the bullets you plan on using have a cannelure, you will want to roll crimp (Redding calls it their Profile crimp). Otherwise, you may experience bullet jump when firing your gun.

The bullets have a cannelure but are plated. If bullet creep is an issue with a taper crimp I don't see an option but to roll crimp them, but I'll avoid it if possible both to prevent any plating damage and because the taper crimp process is less sensitive to variation in case length.

I thought the dies would do both calibers but was confused by Midway's site. I see now that it does work as I had figured. Thanks for the help.

 

[ray15]

Personally if I was content (which I'm not ) with just one die set per handgun calibre I would choose the Lyman Premium Carbide 4 die set. It has everything you need to get you started including a taper crimp die.

I've ordered the Lee die set and the Lee taper crimp. The reason I want the crimp die is because I want to only crimp enough with the seating die to remove the case mouth flare and then taper crimp with a seperate die afterwards to avoid cutting the plating while the bullet is still being pressed into the case by the seating die. The bullets are pretty tough so it may be more effort than it's worth, but I raced past the point of diminishing returns during childhood, I think. Thanks for the input.

 

[ray15]

I roll crimp on plated bullets all the time that have a cannelure.

That may be necessary, at least with full-riot .357 loads. I also ordered some new Starline .357 brass to use so the lengths should be uniform and I'll be able to get a consistent roll crimp if it comes to that. I'm hoping to limit the crimp to a taper if/when possible,

Which plated bullets have worked for you?

 

[otblue]

A couple of points.

https://leeprecision.com/3-die-set-357-mag-carbide.html

This Lee 357 set won't load every step for 38 Spec (the FLS die works though).

If you don't over expand your case mouth you won't need the crimp part of your seating die to start the taper. Just seat to the desired depth then run the case through the taper crimp.

Nothing wrong with Lee dies, I own at least one set in every caliber i reload.

 

[Walkalong]

The bullets have a cannelure but are plated.

They have roll marks, but not a real cannelure. They are more for a spot reference. If you roll crimp it pushes the case mouth into the bullet, potentially damaging the plating, depending on thickness/quality. Some folks say they roll crimp plated with good luck, but I taper crimp plated.

I have used the X-Treme and Berrys 125 Gr bullet for light plinkers, but have never pushed them hard. The Powerbond 125 Gr plated is a different story, as I have pushed it hard and it can take it. I still used a taper crimp though.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I rarely use plated bullets, that's why I said what I said above an out dies. I use coated bullets instead. They seem to be as tough as plated bullets and are cost effective.

 

[Reeferman]

That may be necessary, at least with full-riot .357 loads. I also ordered some new Starline .357 brass to use so the lengths should be uniform and I'll be able to get a consistent roll crimp if it comes to that. I'm hoping to limit the crimp to a taper if/when possible,

Which plated bullets have worked for you?

Not sure if they are available down there but they work very well

http://campro.ca/en/

 

[ray15]

https://leeprecision.com/3-die-set-357-mag-carbide.html

This Lee 357 set won't load every step for 38 Spec (the FLS die works though).

If you don't over expand your case mouth you won't need the crimp part of your seating die to start the taper. Just seat to the desired depth then run the case through the taper crimp.

Nothing wrong with Lee dies, I own at least one set in every caliber i reload.

Fortunately Lee makes it clear in their product descriptions that the .38 special dies can also be used for .357. I believe the .357 dies accommodate longer rounds like the .357 Maximum but don't work with .38 Special. I ordered the .38 Special version.

I like Lee dies a lot - I think they are one of the best things about the Lee platforms. If only their primer feeders were as good.

 

[ATLDave]

I roll crimp into the cannelure/faux cannelure of Xtreme plated bullets in 38/357 and in 41. This has never caused any issue that I can detect, but I'm not a bullseye shooter and I don't have a ransom rest.

I will say that I have recovered fired examples of my bullets from clay/dirt embankments. I have looked at them for plating damage that seems related to the crimp (or the rifling) - as opposed to the damage from impact with the berm - and have not found any. I have concluded that, for my purposes, there is no adverse effect to putting a mild roll crimp on the xtreme plated bullets I have loaded that come with a cannelure. .

 

[ray15]

They have roll marks, but not a real cannelure. They are more for a spot reference. If you roll crimp it pushes the case mouth into the bullet, potentially damaging the plating, depending on thickness/quality. Some folks say they roll crimp plated with good luck, but I taper crimp plated.

It was some of your old posts that clued me into the idea that I could and should get by with a taper crimp.

I have used the X-Treme and Berrys 125 Gr bullet for light plinkers, but have never pushed them hard. The Powerbond 125 Gr plated is a different story, as I have pushed it hard and it can take it. I still used a taper crimp though.

I got the 125HP Xtreme which has their thicker plate. They were cheap (clearance) at 6.4 cents/per, so I bought 6,000. Most will get used in 38 special plinking loads or .38+P stuff, but I intend to push a few with H110 to see what their limits are. Xtreme claims they tolerate 1,500fps.

What are your thoughts on the 158HP Xtreme? I guess the 'cannelure' on them is in the wrong place for .357 brass. Any chance of them staying put with H110 and a taper crimp with no cannelure?

 

[ray15]

I roll crimp into the cannelure/faux cannelure of Xtreme plated bullets in 38/357 and in 41. This has never caused any issue that I can detect, but I'm not a bullseye shooter and I don't have a ransom rest.

I will say that I have recovered fired examples of my bullets from clay/dirt embankments. I have looked at them for plating damage that seems related to the crimp (or the rifling) - as opposed to the damage from impact with the berm - and have not found any. I have concluded that, for my purposes, there is no adverse effect to putting a mild roll crimp on the xtreme plated bullets I have loaded that come with a cannelure. .

Good to hear. I bought the 4-die set so I have the FCD and can roll crimp if necessary. Good to hear of your success with this technique and the xtreme bullets. Thanks for the input.

 

[ray15]

Not sure if they are available down there but they work very well http://campro.ca/en/

Those look nice, and at .008" the plating is pretty thick. I don't see a clear way to buy them in the US, but I'll keep my eyes out for a vendor.

 

[ATLDave]

To be clear, I'm not trying to talk you out of trying the taper crimp approach. There's no doubt that following in Walkalong's footsteps is usually a safe bet! I'm just saying I started off roll crimping and have never changed, and I have shot a fair number of rounds made that way without any ill effect that I can detect.

But I'll never be able to tell you which of two loads is capable of a 1.5" group at 25 yards versus a 2.5" group. I lack the resolution.

 

[Walkalong]

Not sure if they are available down there but they work very well

http://campro.ca/en/

Cool, never heard of them.

What are your thoughts on the 158HP Xtreme? I guess the 'cannelure' on them is in the wrong place for .357 brass. Any chance of them staying put with H110 and a taper crimp with no cannelure?

I have done it with a strong taper crimp and the X-Treme 158 SWC. It pushes the bullet in on the side, and may be as bad, or equally not bad, as roll crimping, I just haven't roll crimped them.

 

[joed]

I had a friend that passed this year that swore by taper crimp for all his revolvers. He liked to load them hot and never had a problem that I know of. To my knowledge he did this the whole time I knew him. I've thought of going to taper crimp myself.

 

[ATLDave]

One question/thought, Walk'. Many bullets, including traditional lead bullets and also many copper or brass solids, have multiple grooves. I understand the purposes of those grooves differ (some are lube grooves, some crimp grooves, some relief cuts designed to allow the harder materials of solids to have somewhere to go and/or to reduce friction). At least over handgun ranges, these are generally not viewed as sources of inaccuracy. Heck, a great many bullseye matches are won with SCW's with those kind of grooves.

Is the concern with "adding" a groove via a roll-crimp simply about damaging the plating/covering such that it begins to fail/peel away in some inconsistent way in the barrel and/or in flight? That has always been the risk/issue that I could identify... is there any other phenomenon at play that you and others are avoiding by not roll-crimping plated bullets?

 

[Walkalong]

Back in the day, plated bullets were more lightly plated than they are today, and you had to be more careful. That is where the don't roll crimp them got started. Today they have thicker plating and just seem to be better overall.

Also, lead bullets with lube grooves you spoke of have lube in them, or they would lead horribly. If you break the plating on a plated bullet and expose bare lead, there is no lube and they will lead, defeating much of the benefit of plated.

Plus the grooves molded into bullets are consistent, whereas grooves from crimping may not be. Anything that throws off the balance of a bullet is bad for accuracy.

But only on target tests will prove the answer. Like my target I posted, 1200 plus FPS with a heavy taper crimp and a nice group. That doesn't mean roll crimping might not be able to do the same thing with some of the tougher plated bullets, I just haven't tried it.