38/357 taper crimp die choice

[ray15]

I have done it with a strong taper crimp and the X-Treme 158 SWC. It pushes the bullet in on the side, and may be as bad, or equally not bad, as roll crimping, I just haven't roll crimped them.

I had a friend that passed this year that swore by taper crimp for all his revolvers. He liked to load them hot and never had a problem that I know of. To my knowledge he did this the whole time I knew him. I've thought of going to taper crimp myself.

Interesting.. (scurries away to buy more clearance xtremes)

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

Good to hear. I bought the 4-die set so I have the FCD and can roll crimp if necessary. Good to hear of your success with this technique and the xtreme bullets. Thanks for the input.

It is possible, with a little work, to taper crimp with the Lee FCD. I bought the taper crimp sleeve for the 9mm FCD. It is longer than the roll crimp sleeve for the .38/.357 FCD only because of the different case lengths between the cartridges. I cut it to the same length as the .38/.357 (it is soft and easy to cut, make sure you cut from the top away from the crimp ring) and can swap them out depending on the crimp I need. As others have mentioned, I also roll crimp Xtreme bullets with the cannelure but taper crimp the Xtreme and Berry's bullets which don't. The part number for the 9mm Crimp Sleeve is SU3147 and since it is a replacement part Lee charges only shipping for it.

 

[joed]

It is possible, with a little work, to taper crimp with the Lee FCD. I bought the taper crimp sleeve for the 9mm FCD. It is longer than the roll crimp sleeve for the .38/.357 FCD only because of the different case lengths between the cartridges. I cut it to the same length as the .38/.357 (it is soft and easy to cut, make sure you cut from the top away from the crimp ring) and can swap them out depending on the crimp I need. As others have mentioned, I also roll crimp Xtreme bullets with the cannelure but taper crimp the Xtreme and Berry's bullets which don't. The part number for the 9mm Crimp Sleeve is SU3147 and since it is a replacement part Lee charges only shipping for it.

Why would you need to do all this? The friend that I mentioned ordered Lee taper dies for his revolver rounds. To my knowledge he never cut or machined anything. I believe the taper die is somewhere around $13.

 

[Walkalong]

Why would you need to do all this? The friend that I mentioned ordered Lee taper dies for his revolver rounds. To my knowledge he never cut or machined anything. I believe the taper die is somewhere around $13.

Agreed, but interesting.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

What are your thoughts on the 158HP Xtreme? I guess the 'cannelure' on them is in the wrong place for .357 brass. Any chance of them staying put with H110 and a taper crimp with no cannelure?

I see no reason to think those bullets can't be used with .357 Magnum brass. If they were not suited for that application the manufacturer would state it.

 

[Walkalong]

Me either, and I do. I have loaded them to the cannelure for .38 and .357, still do for .357. It works out to a nice OAL that is good in my cylinders.

 

[ray15]

I see no reason to think those bullets can't be used with .357 Magnum brass. If they were not suited for that application the manufacturer would state it.

Me either, and I do. I have loaded them to the cannelure for .38 and .357, still do for .357. It works out to a nice OAL that is good in my cylinders.

The concern is with the 158HP design. The user comments on xtreme's site note the cannelure is some ~.050" past the case mouth at normal OALs. People were speculating it was placed to work out with .38 Special brass rather than .357. In any event at 7.5 cents/per shipped I ordered 1,000 for the collection. I wanted a 158gr. bullet as the primary projectile for my H110 games. I'll also load up some 125gr. fireballs but intend to keep their numbers compartively low to avoid beating up the forcing cone and top strap.

I shot some of the Hornady 'American Gunner' 125gr. XTP factory load, and it was tamer than expected. Actually sane for defense use, but I didn't buy this gun for sanity's sake. I believe it runs about 1375fps in a 4" GP100. Since its recoil was mild to me I thought I should jump straight to H110 for my full-power loads to dial the violence up to memorable levels. I don't really enjoy shooting .44 Magnums with full-power loads but I like my .357 loads heavy. I'll have a variety of .38 Special loads for the rest.

 

[Walkalong]

The concern is with the 158HP design.

These?

It doesn't look like they would stick out of the case much, if any, farther. From the middle of the cannelure to the tip on the 158 SWC is about .300.

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

Why would you need to do all this? The friend that I mentioned ordered Lee taper dies for his revolver rounds. To my knowledge he never cut or machined anything. I believe the taper die is somewhere around $13.

I did this so I could have the sizing ring of the FCD but with a taper crimp ring. The Lee Taper Crimp Die does not have the sizing ring. The actual cutting of the 9mm ring takes just a couple of minutes with a hacksaw, then smoothing it on a grinder or sandpaper. And the 9mm sleeve is free. I assume you could do the same with a .45ACP sleeve in a .45LC FCD but I don't shoot .45LC.

 

[joed]

Thanks Skinnedknucles, didn't know the taper crimp die doesn't have a sizing ring. Makes sense now.

 

[Dudedog]

Which plated bullets have worked for you?
https://rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets...5-gr-rmr-round-nose-plated-hp/?v=7516fd43adaa
Also used the 158gr version of the above. Both have a cannelure
Haven't shot the 125s with full power (H110) loads but they worked well with a fairly stout load of BE86, 158 worked well also.

MBC coated 140gr ZIngers are fun in ,.357 noce compromize between 125 and 158. Available in ".38 Special) BHN12 and .357 mag BHN 18 versions.
Acme coated bullets also worked really well for me in .357. Coating on the Acme's seemed a little thicker/better than on the MBCs (which were fine)

 

[Walkalong]

Those look like Powerbond 125s. If they are, they will take at least 1250 FPS. Likely more.

 

[ray15]

These? It doesn't look like they would stick out of the case much, if any, farther. From the middle of the cannelure to the tip on the 158 SWC is about .300.

Yep, those. I think the issue is when you set the OAL as long as the published load data uses (1.580") the cannelure ends up past the case mouth. And it may be the cannelure has been moved since the batches the commentors received, but it would not surprise me if I have to run them somewhat shorter to get the cannelure at the case mouth, which will likely require a slight reduction in charge weight.

I'm used to 9mm and understand with all the case volume of the .357 pressure won't be as affected by a say, .050" reduction in OAL, but think it would require moderation of the published charges a bit.

 

[ray15]

Which plated bullets have worked for you?
https://rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets...5-gr-rmr-round-nose-plated-hp/?v=7516fd43adaa
Also used the 158gr version of the above. Both have a cannelure
Haven't shot the 125s with full power (H110) loads but they worked well with a fairly stout load of BE86, 158 worked well also.

I saw those and would have given them a try but for the xtreme clearance offerings. I just can't pass on the 38-125HP for 6.4 cents/per and the 38-158HP for 7.5. I'm so cheap I squeak when I walk, so xtreme it is for a while. I bought 6K of 9mm-115HP and 135HPs and love them in my nines.

What are your BE-86 loads? I got a pound of that to try since I was paying a hazmat anyway.

MBC coated 140gr ZIngers are fun in ,.357 noce compromize between 125 and 158. Available in ".38 Special) BHN12 and .357 mag BHN 18 versions.
Acme coated bullets also worked really well for me in .357. Coating on the Acme's seemed a little thicker/better than on the MBCs (which were fine)

I have considered a 140gr. solution, and agree it may be a nice middle ground. But I've spent my bullet money for a while, and will live with 125s and 158s. With hot factory 158gr. ammo reaching ~1285fps in a 4" GP100 I should be able to reach that level with H110 and that's still plenty of energy. I don't want to tear the gun up or I'd just go 125gr@1450fps across the board for my full-power load for the giggle factor.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The concern is with the 158HP design. The user comments on xtreme's site note the cannelure is some ~.050" past the case mouth at normal OALs. People were speculating it was placed to work out with .38 Special brass rather than .357.

When seating revolver bullets you don't seat to an OAL in some book, you seat to the middle of the cannelure. The manufacturer supplied crimp groove is the correct place to seat that bullet. I very rarely if ever measure the OAL of a revolver round.

Unless you use the same exact bullet in the same exact brass trimmed to the same length your OAL will not match the load data and doesn't have to. You only need to worry if your finished round is over the SAAMI max length.

 

[ray15]

When seating revolver bullets you don't seat to an OAL in some book, you seat to the middle of the cannelure. The manufacturer supplied crimp groove is the correct place to seat that bullet. I very rarely if ever measure the OAL of a revolver round.

Unless you use the same exact bullet in the same exact brass trimmed to the same length your OAL will not match the load data and doesn't have to. You only need to worry if your finished round is over the SAAMI max length.

I agree but it is still operative to know if you're seating the bullet deeper than what was used in the load data you're basing your efforts on. I don't have much of a frame reference for this cartridge except the published load data, and I find it useful to consider the differences between my application and theirs so I know how literally I can take it.

 

[Walkalong]

I'm used to 9mm and understand with all the case volume of the .357 pressure won't be as affected by a say, .050" reduction in OAL, but think it would require moderation of the published charges a bit.

Yea, not nearly the huge deal like in 9MM, but yes, we must take it into account. I would still load it to the cannelure to get more neck tension and less empty space in the case.

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

Thanks Skinnedknucles, didn't know the taper crimp die doesn't have a sizing ring. Makes sense now.

Another option for a taper crimp for .38/.357 might be to use a 9mm Lee seating die. With the seating plug removed, it would function basically as the Lee Taper Crimp Die, but I'm not sure if it would be too tight on the diameter. I have my 9mm dies loaned out, so I can't check it. Of course, it also would not have the carbide sizing ring.

 

[ray15]

Yea, not nearly the huge deal like in 9MM, but yes, we must take it into account. I would still load it to the cannelure to get more neck tension and less empty space in the case.

Will do. Thanks for your input.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I agree but it is still operative to know if you're seating the bullet deeper than what was used in the load data you're basing your efforts on. I don't have much of a frame reference for this cartridge except the published load data, and I find it useful to consider the differences between my application and theirs so I know how literally I can take it.

The OAL listed in the data for revolver ammo is only telling you what they ended up with. Like I said, revolver bullets with a crimp groove should be crimped into the supplied groove. The data is supplied with a starting charge and they give you a charge range to accommodate slight differences in bullet size. I highly recommend you use the supplied crimp groove and not worry about the listed COAL. I'm not telling you anything dangerous or out of normal loading practices.

 

[joneb]

I use this for 357 mag with plated bullets,
https://leeprecision.com/357-magnum-custom-collet-style-crimp-die.html

 

[ray15]

The OAL listed in the data for revolver ammo is only telling you what they ended up with. Like I said, revolver bullets with a crimp groove should be crimped into the supplied groove. The data is supplied with a starting charge and they give you a charge range to accommodate slight differences in bullet size. I highly recommend you use the supplied crimp groove and not worry about the listed COAL. I'm not telling you anything dangerous or out of normal loading practices.

I understand what you are saying, and agree I will use the cannelure. But the OAL still does matter, because the published pressure numbers are affected by what they ended up with. If the load data shows 10 grains results in 35,000psi at a given OAL, should I end up with a shorter OAL by .050", for any reason, I'm not going to load that full 10 grains without chronograph results to indicate I'm within safe pressures not matter how good the primers look. It's just a matter of correlating to the published data. If I'm under their tested OAL I should expect higher pressures, all else equal.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I understand what you are saying, and agree I will use the cannelure. But the OAL still does matter, because the published pressure numbers are affected by what they ended up with. If the load data shows 10 grains results in 35,000psi at a given OAL, should I end up with a shorter OAL by .050", for any reason, I'm not going to load that full 10 grains without chronograph results to indicate I'm within safe pressures not matter how good the primers look. It's just a matter of correlating to the published data. If I'm under their tested OAL I should expect higher pressures, all else equal.

Walkalong already explained above the slight difference in case capacity is not critical in large cases like the .38 Special as it is in the 9mm. Additionally, it's not the OAL that is critical, it's the amount if bullet inside the case that is. In reality you may have more case capacity with the bullet you are using compared to the bullet they used to develop the data.

 

[ray15]

I agree it will be to a vastly lesser degree due to the larger case volume; I maintained that before Walkalong's post. But the factor should still be considered. You may be correct that the differences in the bullet's construction may result in more effective case volume, but the other side of that coin is that those differences may also result in less case volume. I'm not going to dismiss them out of hand.

 

[ray15]

I use this for 357 mag with plated bullets,
https://leeprecision.com/357-magnum-custom-collet-style-crimp-die.html

When I was researching this issue before starting the thread I ran across that solution as well. It appears there are many ways to skin this cat. I've already received the Lee taper crimp die and will try it first. I think should that not work out I'll either doctor up a FCD as suggested by Skinnedknuckles or perhaps ask Lee if they'll just make me one that way. Should that fail, I can try the collet style die. Or the Redding... No shortage of options. Thanks for the suggestion.