38 +p or 357 for sd

[AJC1]

If you live in a normal tract house in any town in good ole America, do you choose 38 +p or full house 357. For the sake of discussion were dealing with a 4" revolver. Premium ammunition appropriate would be selected and sights set to poi of said ammunition.

 

[ontarget]

38 Spl standard or +P. Doesn't matter how close the neighbors are. My nearest neighbor is over a hundred yards through the woods.
For one thing I value what's left of my hearing.
For another, my HD gun is also my EDC and it is a 38 Spl.

 

[357 Terms]

I'm a little in between.
My EDC and house loads are good old medium weight lead.
Pictured are two 145grn GT HP bullets over 6.5grn of Universal.
1100 to 1150fps.

 

[wcwhitey]

I agree with @ontarget. The problem with .357 inside is flash and noise. Like setting off a flash bang in the room. There are some brands that will advertise a low flash powder but the .357 is still loud and supersonic. There are also some “Medium Magnums” made similar to what @357 Terms loads. Nothing wrong with that approach.

 

[mokin]

I'm in between as well. I have the 4" loaded with .357 loads while the snub-nosed 2" has 38 +P in it.

Good points about a .357 being like a flash bang indoors. The fire ball, visible in full sunlight, produced by the snub-nosed should have been a clue.

 

[Tallball]

I've started to load my HD revolvers with 38 +P instead of 357.

 

[Ted100]

I use 38 special LSWC loaded to Max SAAMI specs for 38 special. Almost too much to handle in my snubbies but proven effective however my 3 and 4" 357's make them feel like a pop gun.

Plus I can put all 6 of those shots in man size target in 50 yards

 

[AJC1]

I was thinking it would go this way based on what the cops actually did. I can't imagine the blast from full house 357 rounds in a house...... say what now.

 

[wnycollector]

My wife's nightstand gun is a 4" pencil barrel M10. It is loaded with the old Remington 158gr +P LSWCHP load. I'm 100% sure that it will be as effective today as it has been since the 1970's.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I load my .357 revolvers with .357 ammo.

 

[Caplock]

Probably 125 grain jhp 357 magnum.

 

[Starter52]

+P in the first three chambers. Magnums after that.

 

[NeroM]

IMHO....... 38 SPL+P in a loading you and your firearm shoot well.
Shooting 357 inside in my experience, is sort of like a sonic stun grenade,
you momentarily lose orientation - at a time you might need it most.

 

[Skinny Pete]

Everything 3" and under is loaded 148gr full wadcutter
It delivers deep penetration and is easy to make fast & accurate hits
No need for all the blast, flash, and recoil as it's pretty much all wasted effort

 

[WrongHanded]

Not all .357 Magnum ammunition is actually a true magnum. Some sit between .38+p and the top end velocities. I'd have a preference for a bullet (probably around 125gr) that would expand well at 1100-1200fps, and if it's premium ammo at that velocity, it should probably be using a powder with flash suppressant. BE-86 was used for such commercial SD loading in many cartridges prior to being released as a component.

For me, the answer is .357 Magnum. Just maybe not full power loads.

Edited to add: On the other hand, I often have a .357Sig at the bedside, with 13 to 15 rounds of 125gr JHPs moving at 1350-1400fps. So I guess you could say I value my life more than my hearing.

 

[AJC1]

So I guess you could say I value my life more than my hearing.

I dont believe that is a realistic assessment. It's not a binary choice, and your proposal of magnum or death is conflating.

 

[Paul7]

Neither, 6" .38/.357 loaded with standard .38 round. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a .38 for SD, cops used them for decades. When John Lennon was shot with a .38 it was said he could have been shot on a hospital operating room table and he still would have died. According to this chart, there ain't much difference between the two rounds in real world SD situations, as opposed to internet, gel block conversations:

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/using-22-self-defense-0

Note also:

"In the case of civilian defensive gun usage, the criminal almost always flees after the first hit. I have been unable to find any gunfights that prove Claude wrong."

Such civilian events are different than police shootings, where the perps know it will end in either death or jail.

They may be criminals, but they aren't stupid, they aren't going to stop and wonder whether that was a .38 or .357 bullet that just whizzed by their ear.

 

[WrongHanded]

I dont believe that is a realistic assessment. It's not a binary choice, and your proposal of magnum or death is conflating.

So let's evaluate the proposal (which is just for the purposes of discussion, right?):

A revolver with a 4" barrel and presumably 6 or maybe 7 shots, for home defense. I don't see any reasons to assume successful reloading of the firearm in the middle of the incident is likely (we can discuss why if you'd like). So we have a limited number of shots with which to deal with a home invasion, and yet many seem to be more concerned with preserving their hearing than stopping the threat.

Or are we to assume that .357 Magnum ammunition is no more potent than .38+p? And that a .357-.358" caliber bullet does the same thing, and is equally effective in causing a stop, regardless of velocity? We could discuss that.

Are we to assume that .38+p ammunition is below some arbitrary threshold for hearing damage, but any .357 Magnum is above it?

Are we to assume that the decibel levels of any .357 Magnum will cause some sort of temporary paralysis to the shooter, but .38+p cannot do this?

Are we to assume that all .357 Magnum ammunition creates a blinding flash, but that no .38+p could do this?

All of these issues with .357 Magnum have been suggested in this thread, in one way or another. And have been used as arguments in favor of .38+p. So whilst I certainly distilled my counter-argument into it's most basic form, isn't that really what we're talking about? Using an inferior cartridge for reasons far less critical than the primary goal of preserving our own life and the lives of those we love?

 

[Paul7]

Using an inferior cartridge for reasons far less critical than the primary goal of preserving our own life and the lives of those we love?

I reject your assumption the .38 is an inferior round for SD. See my post #18. Are you aware of any SD instances where the perp did not flee after the first hit? The goal is to stop the crime, a .38 and .357 will both do that job about as well, according to the research.

Why would higher penetration be a positive in a home SD situation? What if a loved one were in the next room?

 

[Godsgunman]

I like loading my 357 just a little past 38+p levels in my 4" HD revolvers. Plenty of power and penetration and not too much kaboom. I prefer the 140 gr Hornady hp. Gotten good results with my personal "poor man's testing" I did years ago using pork ribs and wet pack.

 

[AJC1]

So let's evaluate the proposal (which is just for the purposes of discussion, right?):

A revolver with a 4" barrel and presumably 6 or maybe 7 shots, for home defense. I don't see any reasons to assume successful reloading of the firearm in the middle of the incident is likely (we can discuss why if you'd like). So we have a limited number of shots with which to deal with a home invasion, and yet many seem to be more concerned with preserving their hearing than stopping the threat.

Or are we to assume that .357 Magnum ammunition is no more potent than .38+p? And that a .357-.358" caliber bullet does the same thing, and is equally effective in causing a stop, regardless of velocity? We could discuss that.

Are we to assume that .38+p ammunition is below some arbitrary threshold for hearing damage, but any .357 Magnum is above it?

Are we to assume that the decibel levels of any .357 Magnum will cause some sort of temporary paralysis to the shooter, but .38+p cannot do this?

Are we to assume that all .357 Magnum ammunition creates a blinding flash, but that no .38+p could do this?

All of these issues with .357 Magnum have been suggested in this thread, in one way or another. And have been used as arguments in favor of .38+p. So whilst I certainly distilled my counter-argument into it's most basic form, isn't that really what we're talking about? Using an inferior cartridge for reasons far less critical than the primary goal of preserving our own life and the lives of those we love?

I think that there is a tipping point in blast that not only will stun the defender but will absolutely the accompanied recoil will prevent a second or followup shot if required. If in the scenario the first shot is a miss then the lower power round should enable retargeting sooner. The issue with my position is I dont know where that realistically falls. Being that one would be reasonably practiced with their choice the mechanics might be less than any possible disorientation. I consider that disorientation very real after shooting next to a 10" unsilenced sbr. And that's with the proper ppe.

 

[WrongHanded]

I reject your assumption the .38 is an inferior round for SD. See my post #18. Are you aware of any SD instances where the perp did not flee after the first hit? The goal is to stop the crime, a .38 and .357 will both do that job about as well, according to the research.

Why would higher penetration be a positive in a home SD situation? What if a loved one were in the next room?

I read a report of a home invasion where a woman unloaded 5 shots of .38 into a man's head and neck, and he shout "Stop shooting me!" I'm not going to find it for you, but if you think the perp always flees after getting shot once, I guess that's what you believe.

What if there's more than one person? Are they still going to flee? Are you certain? Willing to bet your life on it?

Arguing about penetration suggests that you assume no shots are going to miss the intended target. Maybe you're that good. Most are not. And if you think penetration is the only difference between the two cartridges, I don't know what to tell you. .38Spl can over-penetrate too. Especially when it doesn't expand. You might want to go take a look at some ballistic testing of the two cartridges before you make such assumptions about which cartridge penetrates more. Did you know that expansion of a JHP is effected by velocity? The faster a given projectile goes, the more it expands.

 

[WrongHanded]

I think that there is a tipping point in blast that not only will stun the defender but will absolutely the accompanied recoil will prevent a second or followup shot if required. If in the scenario the first shot is a miss then the lower power round should enable retargeting sooner. The issue with my position is I dont know where that realistically falls. Being that one would be reasonably practiced with their choice the mechanics might be less than any possible disorientation. I consider that disorientation very real after shooting next to a 10" unsilenced sbr. And that's with the proper ppe.

In an adrenaline fueled state, the body responds differently. If you believe a shockwave on the air effects the human brain, you must also believe a shockwave in the body effects the central nervous system. I.E. hydrostatic shock.

 

[AJC1]

I read a report of a home invasion where a woman unloaded 5 shots of .38 into a man's head and neck, and he shout "Stop shooting me!" I'm not going to find it for you, but if you think the perp always flees after getting shot once, I guess that's what you believe.

What if there's more than one person? Are they still going to flee? Are you certain? Willing to bet your life on it?

Arguing about penetration suggests that you assume no shots are going to miss the intended target. Maybe you're that good. Most are not. And if you think penetration is the only difference between the two cartridges, I don't know what to tell you. .38Spl can over-penetrate too. Especially when it doesn't expand. You might want to go take a look at some ballistic testing of the two cartridges before you make such assumptions about which cartridge penetrates more. Did you know that expansion of a JHP is effected by velocity? The faster a given projectile goes, the more it expands.

That's why these discussions are difficult because there are several important factors and not just one. A singular scope discussion is way easier.

 

[AJC1]

In an adrenaline fueled state, the body responds differently. If you believe a shockwave on the air effects the human brain, you must also believe a shockwave in the body effects the central nervous system. I.E. hydrostatic shock.

The Whales sure responded to powerful underwater sonar for sure. I absolutely believe in the power and efficiency of a flashbang