.38 Snub or .380 Auto

[Gordon]

OK guys: you are out hiking with kids in a state park known for mountain lion attacks. You have to have a concealed BUG because you can't have a gun in a state park, just a ranger whistle for the rangers 6 miles away. You get forced to hike against your better judgement by family pressure. You only have two choices for a concealed weapon: a .380 or a .38 special. Do you choose a .380 with a 95 grain bullet at 950fps or a 158grain bullet at 850fps?

 

[David4516]

"Do you choose a .380 with a 95 grain bullet at 950fps or a 158grain bullet at 850fps?"

Chances are you'd have to shoot more than once with either gun, so the question should be:

Do you choose 8 .380s or 5 .38s? I think the extra 3 rounds more than make up for it's slight power dis-advantage.

 

[Ian11]

Wellll....

That's the same kind of argument fans of 9mm with 15 round high caps use against .45 fans with 8 round mags. (Not that a good 9mm defense load couldn't equal a .45 shot for shot ) And you could also say people with 5 shot snubs or 8 shot .45's would take more care to hit their target than those with higher capacities with a "spray and pray" mentality.

And this can go back and forth and on and on.

The reason I started this thread was just to gauge how popular each of these top choices in CCW/BUG gun are here at THR.

I chose a snub .38 myself. But neither gun is for standing your ground and fighting. They're for fighting yourself out of a corner, getting away, so you can get help or get a bigger gun.

.38 snub or .380 auto I don't expect it to do any "wonders". I'll be ready to club my attacker in the face with my all steel .38 if I have to.

 

[David4516]

I don't think that the .38s or .380s are bad defensive rounds, even as your primary. I carry a 9mm Makarov, basicly a souped up .380 (it's a 95 gr bullet at about 1050 FPS), as my primary. Of course .45 ACP is a better round, but I don't think I know anyone that wants to get hit with a .38 or .380

I'd consider a BUG or a Mouse gun to be anything .32 ACP or smaller caliber. Anything bigger than that should stop the bad guy with good shot placement. I have herd storys about people being shot in the head with a .25 and ending up with little more than a scratch. I don't know of any storys where someone was shot in the head with a .380 and lived to tell about it...

" And you could also say people with 5 shot snubs or 8 shot .45's would take more care to hit their target than those with higher capacities with a "spray and pray" mentality"

I'm saying that it is a good thing to have more rounds. I'm not saying that it is a good thing to waste them. "spray and pray" is a bad idea even if you're handgun has a 1000 round capaicty... only hits count after all... you should do your best to make every shot count no matter what kinda gun you've got...

 

[JFrame]

I'll be ready to club my attacker in the face with my all steel .38 if I have to.

Ian11,
...And I'd have my 10-oz. 337PD titanium snubby 'cause it wouldn't weigh me down as much when I have to beat feet!

-- JFrame

 

[Baba Louie]

Sometimes this... and sometimes that.

Cold weather parka pocket carry? Snub.

Resta the time? (In my case) CZ-83 (I'm too cheap to be able to justify that fine german/swiss steel... so I settle for a Czech... poor me ).

Adios

 

[444]

"you are out hiking with kids in a state park known for mountain lion attacks."

Either caliber adequate for mountain lion with good shot placement. The shot placement is up to you.

 

[Poohgyrr]

"OK guys: you are out hiking with kids in a state park known for mountain lion attacks."

Honestly, we're probably not going here, and definitely not if we can't carry. I don't want hungry cougars looking at us as lunch. And if we still go here, I can conceal standard service size pistols, with a short lever or slug loaded SG concealed in the car. I don't want to go to court, but becoming lunch is much worse. :banghead:

 

[blue86buick]

because I love the Sig. only wish .380 ACP was cheaper to shoot.

nothing against the .38, just ain't my fancy. at least it's easy to save your brass.

 

[Glamdring]

Well I like the 38 much better.

158 +P LHP for expanders
160 +P Hardcast for solids

Dryfire with revolvers works much better for me than dryfire with autos.

Brass doesn't fly everywhere, so easy to reload for cheap. With a 38 lead bullets are perfect and they are cheap

Also 38 snubs pair well with 357 revolvers or 357 lever guns. Both lever gun and revolvers will take 38's.

 

[355sigfan]

I would take a 38 snub loaded with +p 158 grain lhp's over any small 380. People often mistakenly say that the 380 has the same power as the 38 snub. The problem with this is these 380 figures are from larger 380's with 4 inch barrels. From short auto's like the ppk most rounds will not expand. Plus I have not found a 380 that is as reliable as I would like. This is one area I prefer revolvers to auto's. Not until you get to guns the size of the Glock 26 and Sig 239 do I prefer auto's.
PAT

 

[Scoob]

Gordon- you posted about a 158gr load at 850fps. I didn't know you could get that kind of velocity with a 158gr load out of a snubbie. What load is it? I would be interedted since I recently bought a a S&W mod 37 snubbie, and haven't decided on a carry load. I'm having trouble finding chrono results for snubbies. Thanks for any help.

As for the original question, it would be a toss up to me, provided that the Sig was reliable.

 

[Mastrogiacomo]

I voted the Sig but in reality, I'd take a Glock 26 or a Beretta type M. For a revolver -- I'd probably go with the 686P, 686 or the model 60 if you're going to be shooting .38s through all three revolvers. Whatever is most comfortable to carry....

 

[Boats]

I am reposting this from what seems to be the current evil twin of this thread but from a different angle:

Let's put to rest this equivalency argument between .380 and .38 Special shall we?

To keep it something of apple to apple I went to Winchester's website and retreived the muzzle velocity figures for Silvertips commonly found in smaller concealed handguns and for kicks threw in some alternate Super -X loadings:

.380 Auto 85gr. Silvertip Hollowpoint= 189 foot pounds MV

.380 Auto 95gr. Super-X Hollowpoint= 192 foot pounds MV

.38 Special 110gr. Silvertip Hollowpoint= 218 foot pounds MV

.38 Special +p 125gr. Silvertip Hollowpoint= 248 foot pounds MV

9mmP (sorry no +p option at Winchester) 115gr Silvertip Hollowpoint= 383 foot pounds MV

.357 Mag 145gr. Silvertip Hollowpoint= 535 foot pounds MV

.357 Mag 125gr. Super-X Hollowpoint= 583 foot pounds MV

Of note is that the revo rounds are measured from a 4" vented test barrel so there is some loss from true 2.5" snubs, but not enough to make .357 mag into a 9mm and .38 Special +p into a .380

Now as a .45ACP shooter I do not believe MV is the be all and end all of terminal effectiveness, but in terms of raw power it is a useful yardstick to compare various caliber loadings.

 

[Gordon]

Poohgyr: Hey that event did happen to me recently in the Pygmy forrest area near Mendocino. Out of sight is out of mind, and we did see signs of mountain lions near the warning signs. Scoob: You Can get 850fps from 2" barrel with blue dot(and other powders follow loading manuals and work up-sanely) and careful reloads of 158 LEAD bullets BUT I am not sure you want to load a model 37 that hot. I chronographed Remington 158 LWCHP + power ammo 10 years back at 830 fps from my 2" Agent. The secret is lead bullets can be pushed faster with less pressure. Be careful I've heard Mod 37 are not that strong AND there are alot of knowledgeable folks out there who say the old midrange 148grain wadcutter is the most effective antipersonnel round out of a 2" .38 spec . Certainly they are more accurate and easier to control in follow up shots. I've switched to them in my Colt Agent and Cobra for a BUG. The heavier 158grain +power LWCHP loads work well in STEEL FRAMED late model guns though... This was my load of choice in Mendocino in a 3" Mod 36 . A single action shot to the head of a cougar was possible to 15yards --easy. I like a hammer on a hiking gun! The only two .380's I own are a Model 51 Remington, and a 1955 Browning pocket model which has not much sights! I do like my new PA63 in 9X18 which has a hammer, better sights , is not striker fired (which I am uneasy about with a loaded chamber despite grip safety) and .380 on steroids cartridge thats cheaper !

 

[David4516]

I posted this in another thread but it also applys here:

"I think .380 fired from a small auto is = to a .38 from a snub revolver. I know that 9mm Makarov is = to .38 in terms of foot pounds of energy. Here is some info that I gathered with a chronograph:

.38 fired from 2 inch barrel:

129 gr Federal Hydra-shock, 855 FPS, 209 Energy

9mm Makarov from Makarov Pistol:

95 gr Hornady XTP, 1026 FPS, 222 Energy

The 9mm Makarovs were my own creation (I reload), the .38s were factory. These are not advertised ballistics, this is real world data. 9mm Makarov isn't that much more "powerful" than .380, so I think that you could say that .380 is equal to .38 when fried from pistols of similar size."

 

[Baba Louie]

While out hiking in cat country, keep your kids in sight at all times, especially small ones who love to run around and squeal w/ delight. Dogs like to hike as well and can give a warning bark. Dogs are used in hunting cats, who, when tree'd are often dispatched with the lowly .22 (lessens pelt damage) and bleed out.

Back in the late 80's it was not an unusual occurance for cats to be found on the then outskirts of Las Vegas in neighborhoods.(Summerlin and Green Valley come to mind)

Depending on dress modes, in town, when wearing a sport coat, windbreaker or jacket with pockets, I prefer a revolver inside the RH coat pocket. It never has to be removed to bring into play if confrontation with 2-legged type critter is up close (probably hard on the coat if used tho, and you don't have to police the brass later). Hiking, IWB w/ tee shirt covering when its warm, pocket of coat when cold.

Bigger is better, more is good as well. 5 rds. of 125/158 gr., 10 rds. of 90 gr.; big cats, pack of feral dogs, bad guys... or just a walk in the park feeling pretty good about life ready for life's little challenges.

Adios

 

[444]

It is fairly common in the winter to have lions come into Pahrump although they are seldom seen. The indication is usually a dead horse.
A couple friends of mine spend most of their leisure time and money hunting lions. They use .22 handguns when they decide to take one. The lions don't just lay there and bleed out. The lion must be taken quickly or it will kill the dogs. They consider a .22 handgun to be an effective/adequate/humane weapon. They seldom shoot one however. It is all about working the dogs and riding your horse though beautiful country.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

I'll take a .38 snub. I have a 3" M-640 (is that too long for a snubbie) and a Makarov in 9mm Mak, which is close to being a .380. I've just come to feel more confortable relying on a revo for my serious handguns. That being said, my Mak has never failed to fire or eject.

 

[Gary A]

I'm pretty much a revolver guy at heart but in this case I vote for the P232. Light, slim and 7+1 capacity, ease of shooting, reliability, etc. all make it a narrowly better choice, IMO, than the 5 shot snubbie. The same qualities, plus being significantly lighter make it a better choice than the K-frame .38 even though it has six rounds. The advantage of the snub, IMO, is the ability to shoot the 158+P loads which I like much better than the 90 grains of the 232 but when I debit and credit both guns, the 232 comes out on top in my universe at least. Of course, I could change my mind.

 

[gbelleh]

My Bersa .380 and my Makarov have both been 100% reliable. I wouldn't hesitate to carry either of them. I also have a 5 shot .38 snub. Having only five shots would make me a little uneasy in a self defense situation. Having any gun would be better than nothing, but for me when it comes to ammo, the more the better.

 

[firestar]

I couldn't vote because I can't decide. I am considering a Bersa .380 or a S&W 649 but I really don't know which would be better for me.

I like both. I think I will just avoid the issue and get a Kahr PM9.

 

[George Hill]

I used a S&W Model 10 with a 2 inch barrel to outshoot my police academy class. Including one guy who actually had an 8 inch barreled python.
With good ammo - a snubby can be very effective.

 

[Ian11]

Show Off!

 

[Kentucky Rifle]

I thought all the big cats in Kentucky had been hunted down and killed...

Until I found one that had been hit by a truck (I guess) on the way to the range at Fort Knox. I had to stop. The canine teeth on that thing were ENORMOUS! Same for the claws. My Great-Grandmother used to tell me stories when I was a kid about some black ones that roamed around Southern Kentucky. She told me that she'd SEEN them with her own eyes.
After finding the big, dead, brown Cougar ~suddenly a .44 mag Vaquero doesn't sound bad for walking in the woods. Sometimes, someone just disappears down in the Red River Gorge.
(HUMMmmmm, I wonder?) Personally, I've never seen anything bigger than a little black bear.
Oh, a couple more things. The wilderness around Ft. Knox is about six hundred thousand acres. I've seen some weird "signs" when I was able to ride my Yamaha on the fire roads. The "Land between The Lakes" is another wild place a big cat could hang out and not be discovered. I've heard that there are people living back there who have no idea who the President is. People who live so far back, they NEVER come out.
The times I've been back there, I've always been pretty heavily armed. (And carried a compass!)

KR