.38 special loads for a gunfight?

[kBob]

Second Amendment in the US Bill of rights.

Dr Fackler was very interested in protecting our right to keep and bear arms......now matter who's ballistics theories proved "more better"

He was interested in Ring Foil projectiles as he thought they had to potential to leave clearly defined permanent wound channels. One issue he ran into on the slug project was the patent on the design was then still active. About the only thing we did was think about it and take some short sections of copper tubing and drop them from three stories ( outside my office on the breeze way) to see if a straight tube might self stabilize. There was a tendency to stabilize going open end down, but it was not a sure thing with a straight tube. We figured a tube with a thickened front and a slight ballistic shape of Copper or Titanium launched from a 12 gauge might fly flatter and loose less velocity than traditional Foster or Benneke slugs and act as something of a "cookie cutter" on flesh. One of the things driving this was that I had one dummy round of the PMC .357 magnum ring foil given to me by PMC at a Shot Show. There was also some press about the 9x19mm version which was apparently used by some federal agents in the Waco Tx Branch Davidian event on the first day though identified by some press as Geco BAT ammo.

Neat time.

-kBob

 

[tbob38]

Second Amendment in the US Bill of rights.

Dr Fackler was very interested in protecting our right to keep and bear arms......now matter who's ballistics theories proved "more better"



-kBob

Thanks and nothing wrong with that thinking.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Along with your 38 Special 2 and 4 inch story: When I was a teener (1950's), I had a .22 6" revolver and a .22 rifle. With the same ammunition, the revolver would repeatedly penetrate more pine boards than the rifle would. Which I found very interesting.

In the longer barrel, .22lr bullets commonly start slowing down after about 11-12"

 

[RPZ]

Second Amendment in the US Bill of rights.

Dr Fackler was very interested in protecting our right to keep and bear arms......now matter who's ballistics theories proved "more better"

He was interested in Ring Foil projectiles as he thought they had to potential to leave clearly defined permanent wound channels. One issue he ran into on the slug project was the patent on the design was then still active. About the only thing we did was think about it and take some short sections of copper tubing and drop them from three stories ( outside my office on the breeze way) to see if a straight tube might self stabilize. There was a tendency to stabilize going open end down, but it was not a sure thing with a straight tube. We figured a tube with a thickened front and a slight ballistic shape of Copper or Titanium launched from a 12 gauge might fly flatter and loose less velocity than traditional Foster or Benneke slugs and act as something of a "cookie cutter" on flesh. One of the things driving this was that I had one dummy round of the PMC .357 magnum ring foil given to me by PMC at a Shot Show. There was also some press about the 9x19mm version which was apparently used by some federal agents in the Waco Tx Branch Davidian event on the first day though identified by some press as Geco BAT ammo.

Neat time.

-kBob

I don't know how good in practice it would be, but worth a try might be a hardcast shotgun slug duplicating a flat front waisted air rifle pellet.

 

[RPZ]

Who makes a 158 gr. full wadcutter (not SW)?

Might be available as component bullets, but all factory wadcutter loads I have seen are 148 grainers. Perhaps some cross confusion here with semi wadcutter loads which are universally 158s.

 

[SharpDog]

IMHO you need specially developed loads for snubbies. I'm not a reloader, but a 'user' so take this for what it's worth. In my estimation this means you need heavy for caliber loads with fast burning powders to try to get the most burn before leaving be barrel. Also you need reliably expanding bullets in your effective terminal velocities. For 9mm I chose Federal 147 gr. HST +p. There is likely something similar in .38 spl +p 158 gr JHP.

Buffalo Bore makes such loads (standard pressure):

Standard Pressure:
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=23

 

[Shane in MT]

OK, another dumb question. 2AD and 2AD politics?

Along with your 38 Special 2 and 4 inch story: When I was a teener (1950's), I had a .22 6" revolver and a .22 rifle. With the same ammunition, the revolver would repeatedly penetrate more pine boards than the rifle would. Which I found very interesting.

In the longer barrel, .22lr bullets commonly start slowing down after about 11-12"

The slower velocity of the revolver likely translated into less bullet expansion, and therefore deeper penetration on those boards, vs the rifle.

 

[9mmepiphany]

IMHO you need specially developed loads for snubbies.

The Speer 135gr Gold Dot Short Barrel round was specifically designed to work coming out of the 1 7/8" J-frame barrel

Buffalo Bore makes such loads (standard pressure):

Standard Pressure:
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=23

Interestingly right under the SWC loading is one using a 150gr WC @850fps

 

[kBob]

RPZ.

Lee already makes a mold for "Diablo" pellet looking 12 ga slugs that can be loaded in a normal shot wad/piston and given a common star crimp. I have not used them but reports were good.

About 30 years ago there were wasp waisted .50 cal sabot slugs on the market, originally for smooth bores, they worked even better in rifled guns BFR I believe they were called even though that means something else to my aging military mind (Big "Fine" Rock). I used them a bit in a cylinder bored Mossberg 500 and they shot better than my then standard Foster to 100 yards.

-kBob

 

[tbob38]

In the longer barrel, .22lr bullets commonly start slowing down after about 11-12"

I think that figure is more like 16 inches.

 

[tbob38]

The slower velocity of the revolver likely translated into less bullet expansion, and therefore deeper penetration on those boards, vs the rifle.

Exactly!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I've said it a lot, way too much attention is paid to the "perfect mushroom" instead of accuracy. What's better, hitting a shoulder with a perfect mushroom or center mass hits with a bullet which hardly upsets? Shot placement is paramount.

I have a M640 that is extremely accurate with 145gr Winchester Silvertip ammo so that's what I carry. Will it be picture perfect compared to some of the other "newer and better" ammo available? I don't know and frankly I don't care. The above combo produces the tightest groups I have ever shot with a J frame along with excellent POA=POI.

Just my penny or two in this.

 

[Zendude]

+P semi wadcutter or even +P ball. You never know how much clothing will need to be penetrated. You might even need to shoot through your own car door or window in an attempted carjacking.

 

[Steveo_1704]

Might be available as component bullets, but all factory wadcutter loads I have seen are 148 grainers. Perhaps some cross confusion here with semi wadcutter loads which are universally 158s.

i have not seen 158 wc on sns/mbc/cheycats/etc sites at all.

 

[pete950]

How about a 230 grain full wadcutter but I will stay with the 148's

 

[18DAI]

I always liked the "Treasury load" in a snub. A 110 grain +P+ JHP. Wichester made it for many years.......may still make it. Dunno.

I quit carrying revolvers for serious purpose some years back.

 

[kidneyboy]

I've said it a lot, way too much attention is paid to the "perfect mushroom" instead of accuracy. What's better, hitting a shoulder with a perfect mushroom or center mass hits with a bullet which hardly upsets? Shot placement is paramount.

I have a M640 that is extremely accurate with 145gr Winchester Silvertip ammo so that's what I carry. Will it be picture perfect compared to some of the other "newer and better" ammo available? I don't know and frankly I don't care. The above combo produces the tightest groups I have ever shot with a J frame along with excellent POA=POI.

Just my penny or two in this.

^^^^^^^^^
THIS

Consistent accuracy is way more important than bullet choice.

 

[labnoti]

IMHO you need specially developed loads for snubbies. I'm not a reloader, but a 'user' so take this for what it's worth. In my estimation this means you need heavy for caliber loads with fast burning powders to try to get the most burn before leaving be barrel. Also you need reliably expanding bullets in your effective terminal velocities....

For penetration, you want high sectional density -- a long rod rather than a flat disk. For a given diameter, that usually means more mass, but as the diameter expands with a hollow-point, the sectional density for a given mass decreases over the time that expansion takes place. The trade-off with higher mass bullets is lower bullet velocity for the same energy, and higher recoil velocity, or more accurately, a higher level of thrust with a shorter impulse. Recoil of this quality is more disturbing to the sight picture and the muzzle's point of aim. Recoil is less problematic when it is a lower level of thrust acting over longer time.

When considering a powder's burn rate, it should always be done with regard to the pressure under which it is burning. Because of the .38 Special's relatively large case volume, powder tends to begin combustion at lower pressures than 9mm for example. However, the base of bullets of greater mass like 148 gr. WC or 158 gr. SWC or LRN are seated more deeply than 125 gr. projectiles. This smaller combustion chamber and the bullet's greater inertia produce a higher initial combustion pressure. That usually results in a faster burn rate for a given powder.

The construction of the revolver is usually intended for operation within a SAAMI specified peak pressure limit. However, pressure should always be considered with regard to time. A powder that burns faster because of its chemical composition and the pressure under which it is burning, may reach the peak pressure specification early and thereby limit the mass of the total powder charge.

Using a 158 grain projectile, the 17,000 psi pressure peak limit can be reached in as little as 8mm of bullet travel. For a 125 grain bullet, it still only takes about 10mm. This will happen inside the cylinder and the barrel length is irrelevant. A load of powder will have to be limited in mass so that the pressure drops off after the pressure limit is reached. This happens rapidly with a fast-burning powder, but can happen more slowly with slower powders. That is why fast burning powders rarely produce the highest bullet velocities even in the shortest barrels.

I load for 1.875" barreled J frames, and I find that powders in the range of W231, Unique, Universal etc. work well. Slower powders like Longshot, H110 can produce good velocities but are inconsistent because a large portion of the charge is unburnt by the time the bullet exits. I don't see merit in the idea that fast powders like Bullseye or Red Dot are better suited to short barreled guns. The powders that work well in short barreled revolvers are the same ones that work well in most handguns.

Having bullets reliably expand at their terminal velocity seems like it should be expected, but if their energy is too low to drive an expanded bullet to sufficient penetration then it may be pointless. I think given an energy level where only one was possible, most people would prefer sufficient penetration over expansion. However, bullet expansion occurs at different rates and that can affect how much energy is needed to drive penetration. If a bullet expanded immediately upon impact, it will take more energy to drive it to a certain depth than another bullet that only expands after it has reached the depth. Think of the respective wound-channels as a full diameter cylinder versus an expanding cone. The wound channel volume of the early-expanding bullet may actually be greater, but if it doesn't reach the depth of vitals then it may be ineffective. Of course, wound channels are never those shapes because all bullets take some time and distance to expand and they also decelerate rather than coming to an abrupt stop at their maximum depth. So you have to imagine the bullet creating a permanent wound channel of either rapidly or gradually increasing diameter and of depth respective to how much energy transfer is happening over time.

It is not unreasonable to expect energy levels high enough for both sufficient (by widely accepted standards) expansion and penetration in handgun cartridges, even when fired from a short barrel. With a good bullet design that does not expand too rapidly, it has been done consistently with energy levels greater than 300 ft/lbs.

 

[Mixed Nuts]

I've said it a lot, way too much attention is paid to the "perfect mushroom" instead of accuracy. What's better, hitting a shoulder with a perfect mushroom or center mass hits with a bullet which hardly upsets? Shot placement is paramount.

I have a M640 that is extremely accurate with 145gr Winchester Silvertip ammo so that's what I carry. Will it be picture perfect compared to some of the other "newer and better" ammo available? I don't know and frankly I don't care. The above combo produces the tightest groups I have ever shot with a J frame along with excellent POA=POI.

Just my penny or two in this.

I hear this. Though it made me smile a little. Not at you but at the limitations of armchair gunfight analysis - of which I am so often guilty, witness this thread.

My first thought upon reading your post was that accuracy with an under-powered and overly light .38 bullet would not be exemplified with a center mass hit against a tough, motivated adversary. A shoulder hit might be a better hit if your bullet couldn't reach vitals in center mass. A useless arm is a handicap.A forehead or pelvic shot would both likely be better.

Back in the day - this Dude was shot six times in the chest - center mass with a .38 by a passerby in a jogging suit.
View attachment 794741

The jogger got away but "gorilla" was said to have chased him down the street. Gorilla also survived. If both men had been armed they both would have been hit. And the standard size dude would have gone to the morgue.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I hear this. Though it made me smile a little. Not at you but at the limitations of armchair gunfight analysis - of which I am so often guilty, witness this thread.

My first thought upon reading your post was that accuracy with an under-powered and overly light .38 bullet would not be exemplified with a center mass hit against a tough, motivated adversary. A shoulder hit might be a better hit if your bullet couldn't reach vitals in center mass. A useless arm is a handicap.A forehead or pelvic shot would both likely be better.

First, you know nothing about my background so leave the the snide armchair gunfight remark out of it.

Secondly, where did I tell anyone to use an "underpowered and overly light bullet?"

My post was meant to be helpful but I have my doubts about your post. Disagree with me all day long but don't change what I said to strengthen your position.

Have a good day and be safe.

 

[Mixed Nuts]

First, you know nothing about my background so leave the the snide armchair gunfight remark out of it.

Secondly, where did I tell anyone to use an "underpowered and overly light bullet?"

My post was meant to be helpful but I have my doubts about your post. Disagree with me all day long but don't change what I said to strengthen your position.

Have a good day and be safe.

Hey ArchAngelCD, I'm sorry to see that you took this personally. The armchair analysis remark was an attempt at humility on my part.

As for under powered and overly light bullet... these words are used in reference to the thread's original question and the "armchair" theorizing I posit therein.

In the context of that post, 145gr Winchester Silvertip ammo .38 Hollow Points would be - perhaps marginally - underweight and overly light because they are less than 158 grains and particularly because they are hollow points which would would reduce their potential for penetration in a .38 special from a 2-3" barrel.

Is my theorizing true? I dunno. That's why I made this thread - curiosity and a search for data on the subject.

Anyway, genuinely sorry that you felt assailed here. I should be more careful on issues where folks - myself included - have invested themselves. And in support of your choices, I sure there is anecdotal evidence of bigger handguns failing to kill bad guys with multiple hits, too.

 

[the Black Spot]

Long story short, i acquired a taurus 605 in 357 mag.
I am looking at loading wadcutters in mag cases to about 38 special + p.
I think these will suffice

 

[Steveo_1704]

Long story short, i acquired a taurus 605 in 357 mag.
I am looking at loading wadcutters in mag cases to about 38 special + p.
I think these will suffice

I'm considering that also.

 

[Haywood]

Massad Ayoob wrote that the New York PD was happy with the results they got from the Gold Dot 135gr. 38+P. Positive stops from their 2” and 4” Revolvers. That’s proof on the street that this round works. It shoots good from my Snubs so, that’s what I carry.

 

[John Joseph]

Fixed sighted .38 Spls are optimized for 158 grain bullets by the factory, I've been told, so I stick with 158 grain bullets.
Popular fashion has it that 7-9 yards is the realistic range for self defense scenarios so what's a couple of grains difference at that distance?

Last Sunday evening a young man I know went out to retrieve his cell phone from his car and was shot in the head during the course of a gang initiation. The distance from his drive way to the street (the gangbanger was in an SUV) was more like 50' so if he had been able to return fire accuracy would have been a greater consideration, no?
BTW he passed away yesterday morning.
Got me seriously considering adding a .45 to my CCW.