jar
Contributing Member
Does your state have laws regarding signage?
.380 ACP the Red Haired Stepchild?
- Thread starter Brubz
- Start date
Did I? I said when I can't do better and elaborated.
I'd be glad to be the arbiter of definitions, but that would require people willing to do as I say which I have generally found there to be a lack of.
However, if anyone wants to do as I say, stop unrequired shirt tucking.
I'm not rolling with just a 380, there is that Glock 26 in Smartcarry too.
Uhhh.........what?
A cartridge designed by an American, in America, first manufactured in America and the first handgun in that round was American.
It was originally the .380 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol)
Every other name was just a translation and not what John Browning named it.
I'm glad someone caught this. Also, since it was designed by JMB, it can't be that bad...
trackskippy
Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2010
- Messages
- 3,493
I understand some do, and if you do, you may have to deal with that, or at least address it and get an actual legal interpretation on it. Just dont take someones word on it, either way, people like to act like they are in charge and tell you what to do, and throw their weight and "the law" at you, when in many cases, there really is no law that applies to you. And that goes for everything, not just gun related stuff.
The other thing to consider here too is, if you actually read the various laws and rules, they almost always have the "or any other lawful purpose" cite in them, and usually towards the end of the list. That also used to apply to the USPO's, but they have more recently changed the cites on the signs, and you may need to get a better answer there.
Other than some signs in some government buildings, the signs here have no force of law. And if youre doing things right, no one will ever know anyway.
I carry everywhere I go, unless theres a metal detector or a pat down. Only a very few select people know I carry a gun, and no one else needs to know, and I do my best to keep it that way. The fewer that know, the better as far as Im concerned. Last thing you need if something goes south, is someone with you saying out loud, you have a gun, arent you going to do something.
jar
Contributing Member
Signage here does carry the force of law.
Not allowed is not the same as unwanted.
I do not carry a gun where I am not allowed and almost certainly would not carry one even if legal if there was a indication that it would be unwanted.
Not allowed is not the same as unwanted.
I do not carry a gun where I am not allowed and almost certainly would not carry one even if legal if there was a indication that it would be unwanted.
trackskippy
Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2010
- Messages
- 3,493
Are those telling you you cant, going to take full responsibility for your safety and take care of you and your family after the fact, if something goes south? I think thats the question you have to ask yourself.
All these shootings you see, always seem to occur where youre told you cant carry and protect yourself, yet they dont do anything to protect you after they force you to disarm and follow their rules.
Its your choice to obey their rules, but who has your best interest at heart here?
All these shootings you see, always seem to occur where youre told you cant carry and protect yourself, yet they dont do anything to protect you after they force you to disarm and follow their rules.
Its your choice to obey their rules, but who has your best interest at heart here?
BreechFace
Member
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2020
- Messages
- 3,509
Our state signage doesn’t carry force of law. And I have no issues with conceal carrying in private businesses such as banks and the like that have no firearm signs. They do not carry force of law, the owners never know as I make it a habit to keep it concealed.
If they want me to leave in the 0.00001% they find out I’m carrying I will gladly obey without dispute immediately and in a non-threatening manner.
But, if I’m within the law in having the right to carry in a place that is higher risk, for example, banks, theatre’s, shopping malls which often have no firearm signage I will without question.
I'm curious too. The 38 is past its prime.
I imagine it is because American police used 38 special and European police used the 380.
That or the fact that 38's have always been more common in the US. I haven't seen any science referencing the massive stopping power of 38 special, especially since it has become generally accepted that 9mm out-paces it.
I can't see the video, what happened? Yes, the same would have occurred with a .380
What does that video prove? The guy broke off his 'attack', which is the point of carrying, for all we know the same would happened with a .380 or .38. A shot to the head with any of those three calibers would have gotten the result you're apparently looking for.
Looks like somebody likes 380, that is a lot of posts in this thread:
If you like 380 - carry it. If you carry just a 380 derringer or nothing at all it doesn't affect me.
For me, 380 is not on par with 9mm. I do not settle for 380 if/when I can do better, which is most of the time.
And when I begrudgingly do carry a 380 I still have a 9mm on me; the 380 holstered in gym shorts in pocket offers quicker access outside the gym, going to/from; in the gym holstered 380 goes in locked locker and Glock 26 in Smartcarry is still on me.
Other than the three or four times a week when I go to the gym, I'm wearing cargo shorts and have a Sig 365 in pocket and a Glock AIWB (at least 9mm) in the FL heat and despite being in a "good area".
I just don't see a difference in real world SD events between the two. To me carrying two 9's is overkill, YMMV
buck460XVR
Member
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2007
- Messages
- 10,079
I have carried everything from a .380 to a .44 mag for SD. All of them work for me. That don't mean I feel a need to push my personal choice down the throats of everyone else. Like many of us here, I went the majority of my life not carrying anything at all. Guess what? That worked too. So, for me to fill my pants with every SD gadget known to man, every minute I am awake......ain't gonna happen. What will happen, is that I will carry what I feel is appropriate for the occasion and my method of dress. Don't work for you?: Too bad, don't care. Far too many folks feel the need to justify their choice, by belittling the choices of others. How insecure is that with their choice, eh? Some folks need to get over the fact that not everyone is going to jump on their choice of carry bandwagon. Caliber is not nearly as important as proficiency and situational awareness, and going bigger is not going to make up for the lack of either. Use what you have confidence in, are proficient with and are comfortable carrying. Don't matter what others think....ain't their life you are trying to save.
BTW....my little Kimber Micro .380 is a lot more fun to shoot than my 329 Night Guard....and at SD distance, more accurate. Just don't blow as big of hole. Does blow a hole big enough tho.
......just saying.
BTW....my little Kimber Micro .380 is a lot more fun to shoot than my 329 Night Guard....and at SD distance, more accurate. Just don't blow as big of hole. Does blow a hole big enough tho.
......just saying.
BreechFace
Member
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2020
- Messages
- 3,509
The 380ACP might only blow one lung out the back, whereas a 9mm will blow both lungs out the back.
WisBorn
Contributing Member
@buck460XVR I strongly recommend that you watch the following video for your EDC requirements
https://youtube.com/shorts/pGqBz-vaUaw?feature=share
https://youtube.com/shorts/pGqBz-vaUaw?feature=share
trackskippy
Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2010
- Messages
- 3,493
LOL. Mas is a lightweight.
.308 Norma
Member
I just figured it out, and I think I've been carrying for about 30 years. However, I'm 75, so I'm hoping that one of these years I'll be able to say that I've been carrying for the "majority" of my life.
BTW, in the above statement, I'm not implying that my choice of what I carry is or isn't more likely to get me over that carrying for the "majority" of my life threshold. It might, or it might not. I hope I don't ever have to find out.
Armybrat
Member
Agree. I will never conceal carry anything bigger than my LCP Max.
It is perfect for my pocket carry needs, and I don’t care what anyone else thinks about it.
Sure, we hear the occasional comments about Ruger LCPs being “junk”, but I’ll bet the other 2,000,000+ owners disagree.
buck460XVR
Member
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2007
- Messages
- 10,079
I'm 69.....and CWC did not become legal here in Wisconsin until 2011. I'll have to live till I'm 114 to say I've legally carried for half my life. That's not to say I didn't ever legally carry openly before that. Just most folks don't consider that as counting.
I always thought 380 was for people who wanted the recoil of a 9mm with a slower and smaller projectile
The reality is that we don't have enough publically available evidence to confirm without a doubt that it will either ALWAYS or NEVER work for anything small enough to work in a handgun. There are too many variables - lighting, distance, ammo QC, tripping hazards, bone density, and anything else you can imagine. If you're confronted by a 400 lb bad guy, 9" of penetration may not make it to a vital organ
I prefer a round that throws a heavier bullet as faster speeds with a pistol as many extras in the magazine as possible, but not everyone on the internet can be right like me.
Maybe hollowpoints. I can assure you that the 100grain flat-point hardcasts from Buffalo Bore will penetrate well beyond 9".
Had not thought about it on those terms before.
I got concealed carry at age 25, I'm 56 now; I have been able to carry the majority of my life.
Despite not ever needing a single bullet and living in a "good area" where "its hot" - I prefer 9mm minimum.
Why is that? Because bullets that penetrate at least 12'' and consistently expand have better ASAP incapacitation potential than those that fail to meet those two simple criteria and 380 loads capable of that are few; testing in clear gel (Lucky Gunner) does not yield the same result as other media.
For example, Winchester test data for their ammo shows 380 to penetrate less than 8'' in gel or heavy clothed gel:
https://winchesterle.com/-/media/Pr...gun-Bullet-Barrier-Testing-Protocol_2016.ashx
9mm T series 127 +P+ and 147 gr. and 147 Bonded achieve both desired criteria of at least 12'' penetration with expansion.
The point of me carrying is to hopefully stop potentially lethal threat(s) before they can inflict injury or death to me.
Given same shot placement, larger holes are more likely to deliver the desired result, ASAP incapacitation, which is why expansion is important.
And we know that even with lethal but non-cns hit(s) attacker(s) may have up to 10 seconds or more of voluntary action...
Which is why not only 9mm minimum is desirable but also at least 11 rounds (10 + 1) because some people can take multiple hits and not be quickly incapacitated.
Who decided a round 'must' penetrate 12", not 8"? The brain and lungs aren't 12" from the skin, and as in hunting, you poke a hole in their lungs they're going to die, or at least go pick on someone else most likely. You're leaving out of the equation the .380 is easier to shoot, with faster follow up shots, and more likely to be carried to begin with as it is a pocket carry gun.
CaptHank
Member
Now, these critters are right snappy.
trackskippy
Member
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2010
- Messages
- 3,493
My understanding has always been they wanted 12"-16" of reliable penetration.
You have to keep in mind too, its a 360° circle of "person" thats getting shot, not just a face on type of thing. The round may need to penetrate the arms, as well as the width of the body, and dont forget the rampant obesity of people these days as well.
"Poking holes" is really about all handgun rounds do, and body shots arent really likely to bring about a quick result, unless maybe the "shootee" is an avid TV viewer, and believes that if they are shot, they are dead. You need to understand that you, as the "shooter", have to shoot until they are down and out, and as quickly and repetitively as possible. And that takes exactly what it takes, no more, no less.
Will one or two rounds of 380, 9mm, or whatever get the job done? Whos to say. A lot of that is what your skills really are, and a bit of luck.
You need to be on top of your game as best you can, understand human anatomy, where and why you want to shoot where you do to bring about the quickest result, and be able to actually do just that. Theres a bit more to it than just shooting for face on "COM".
BreechFace
Member
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2020
- Messages
- 3,509
A bullet that first must travel through an extremity to get to the part of the body holding the juicy bits needs to not be on the minimum length of penetration.
There is a reason before better bullets came out that the go to 380ACP round was FMJ's as they were the offerings that provided enough penetration (there were SD rounds but why pay the premium for the same result at the time). In the past, all the expanding bullets failed to meet the minimum penetration, until recently and still they are barely reaching those minimums and without great expansion. All one has to do is look at ballistic tests on the 380ACP and one can see that any ammunition that expands to greater than 0.40" fails to get to the 12" FBI standard for penetration. Those that exceed 12" penetration due so by not expanding. Probably the best 380ACP SD ammo would be the Sig 90gr V-Crown which barely gets into the 12" standard in 3 out of 5 shots and expands to 0.51".
Compare that to 9mm ballistic tests and there is a plethora of ammo types that expand and fall into the ideal FBI penetration standard. Why is this? Well it's due to the fact that the 380ACP is marginal for a self-defense round plain and simple, it is a compromise any way one looks at it. When I choose to carry my Ruger LCP, in my mind I know I'm making a compromise plain and simple that is why I only carry it 5-6 times a year on occasions where nothing else is an option I want to consider.
I get that people like the recoil (even though a majority of the 380's are blowback, which is counter productive to less recoil over a browning type action), the size, the weight, etc of 380ACP pistols but people should know they are carrying what I would consider a substandard SD round plain and simple. Obviously, my opinion but there is lots of data to back that up.
Last edited:
100 posts in... "Facts" I've learned about 380:
1. New pistols are pleasant and easy to shoot
2. Hard to find a more comfortable or concealable CCW than new 380's
3. Limited magazine capacity (i.e. no 20-rounders for CCW)
4. Less "power" than other bigger rounds (45 ACP) - Conversely, more power than other smaller rounds (25 ACP)
Almost everything else is solidly in opinion territory and YMMV.
Is it enough power? Maybe. Depends.
Does it cause instantaneous disintegration? Probably not.
Is it a "red headed step child"? I'd say no more or less than 357 is.
1. New pistols are pleasant and easy to shoot
2. Hard to find a more comfortable or concealable CCW than new 380's
3. Limited magazine capacity (i.e. no 20-rounders for CCW)
4. Less "power" than other bigger rounds (45 ACP) - Conversely, more power than other smaller rounds (25 ACP)
Almost everything else is solidly in opinion territory and YMMV.
Is it enough power? Maybe. Depends.
Does it cause instantaneous disintegration? Probably not.
Is it a "red headed step child"? I'd say no more or less than 357 is.
Similar threads
