.380 ACP the Red Haired Stepchild?

[Ethan Verity]

I like to first put some rounds through my NAA 22Short, so that when I switch over to the 380 it feels like a massive hand-cannon. That sure helps to build confidence in the power of 380!

 

[Paul7]

Compare that to 9mm ballistic tests and there is a plethora of ammo types that expand and fall into the ideal FBI penetration standard. Why is this? Well it's due to the fact that the 380ACP is marginal for a self-defense round plain and simple, it is a compromise any way one looks at it. When I choose to carry my Ruger LCP, in my mind I know I'm making a compromise plain and simple that is why I only carry it 5-6 times a year on occasions where nothing else is an option I want to consider.

I get that people like the recoil (even though a majority of the 380's are blowback, which is counter productive to less recoil over a browning type action), the size, the weight, etc of 380ACP pistols but people should know they are carrying what I would consider a substandard SD round plain and simple. Obviously, my opinion but there is lots of data to back that up.

I'd like to see your data that says in real world (as opposed to gel block contests) SD situations, the .380 is less effective in stopping a crime. This data says it isn't: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

If all other factors were equal, I'd carry a 9mm or greater too, but they aren't, the .380 has less recoil (you'll appreciate that when you're 64) so is more comfortable to shoot with easier and faster shots to the vitals, and is smaller so more likely to be pocket carried.

 

[BreechFace]

I'd like to see your data that says in real world (as opposed to gel block contests) SD situations, the .380 is less effective in stopping a crime. This data says it isn't: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

If all other factors were equal, I'd carry a 9mm or greater too, but they aren't, the .380 has less recoil (you'll appreciate that when you're 64) so is more comfortable to shoot with easier and faster shots to the vitals, and is smaller so more likely to be pocket carried.

So according to the linked findings, a .380 ACP is the same as a 357 Mag. Good to know . And the 32 long/ACP is nearly as effective at one stop shot as a rifle, who would have known.

The gel block tests are a controlled scenario with verifiable data. That simply measures a cartridges ability to reach vitals and expand, those are the variables in handgun performance that matters as we are not in the realm of velocities creating stretch cavities and hydrostatic shock.

The linked Effritz article is uncontrolled environments with great variables from shoot to shoot no doubt. I’ve seen and read that article and while a nice thought, I don’t give it credence in suggesting all handgun rounds are nearly equal in performance. But that’s my conjecture and certainly you are allowed yours.

There’s a butt for every seat as they say.

 

[CDW4ME]

I'd like to see your data that says in real world (as opposed to gel block contests) SD situations, the .380 is less effective in stopping a crime. This data says it isn't: https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

If all other factors were equal, I'd carry a 9mm or greater too, but they aren't, the .380 has less recoil (you'll appreciate that when you're 64) so is more comfortable to shoot with easier and faster shots to the vitals, and is smaller so more likely to be pocket carried.

A chart from your link shows 32 acp to be more effective than 40 S&W, 45 acp or 44 Mag.

If we are skeptical about that piece of data (I am) then we (I) might wonder if FMJ and HP were tallied separately. Spoiler: No, they were not.
Also, smaller sample sizes might skew data, 32 acp is based on 25 incidents, 380 is 85 incidents, 9mm is 456 incidents.
If 380 performed as well at stopping people as 9mm then there would be US police departments issuing 380 for carry but that is not the case, majority of police departments issue at least 9mm with a good HP because they know at least 12'' penetration may be required to penetrate a forearm (like someone holding a knife or gun in front of their torso) before it makes it to the torso.

I'll guess what might be coming next, ... but some cops can carry 380 off duty. Right. And that is not because they encounter easier to stop assailants when off duty; it is because most cops are not "into" guns and would not carry around a Glock 19 or larger size pistol off duty so they are allowed to carry something smaller just so they will be armed. It is not because they (the department) think 380 on par with 9mm. <----Said by somebody that was a cop for a couple years.

Given these options, a Ruger LCP 380, Glock 26 or Sig 365 all of which are easily concealable dressed in FL attire (shorts & shirt).
Armed attacker(s) going to try to inflict injury or death, pick one of the three pistols to defend yourself, whatever ammo in it you want.
Of those options, I'm picking a 9mm, the Glock 26 or Sig 365; in order for me to pick the 9mm I have to make the "effort" to carry it, which I do.

 

[WisBorn]

The four types of gun owners and their thoughts about the 380acp.

1 - the 380 is a good choice for CCW.
2 - the 380 is a ok if I can't carry something bigger. So I will rely on it when I'm wearing a suit or gym shorts, but only then.
3 - the 380 is only a good backup. That way when my big gun fails, I will rely on it then.
4 - I never carry a 380 because, the 380 bounces of bag guys and never penitates more than 6.5 " of gel. *Please note the 9mm bounces off bad guys in the winter because of them wearing a heavy coat.

Please carry what you want and practice with it. Life is about comprises.
The 380 comprises energy in return you get a small handgun.
The 38 j frame size revolvers comprises capacity. In return you get a simple manual of arms that is reliable.
The 9mm has small options, not small as 380. Simple to operate, but not as easy as a revolver.
I prefer to have my XDM compact 45acp with me, but I will comprises and carry something smaller for comfort....

Stay safe.

 

[trackskippy]

Please carry what you want and practice with it. Life is about comprises.

Stay safe.

By all means, carry what you want. We all have to do what we think is best, for us.

And as long as you actually practice with whatever it is, to the point of being able to use it without thought, and make good hits on demand with it, youll be way ahead of most. The practice part is really more important than the what you carry part, as if you cant make whatever that is work, across the board, on demand, whats it really matter what you have?

If you feel you have to compromise, then go right ahead, as long as you understand what comes of it. Compromise generally means you give up something to suit someone else, and really may not be in your best interest. Again, do what you think best, but keep in mind, more often than not, you dont "have" to.

 

[unclenunzie]

What's really important in the data presented, % of people who were not incapacitated, an important truth:

25 ACP 35%
22 long/short/LR 31%
32 ACP 40%

380 16%
38 SPL 17%
9MM 13%
357MAG 9%
40SW 13%
45 ACP 14%
44MAG 13%

This tell ME that along with all the service calibers, 380 is OK, and like the service calibers is 2x more effective than 32 and below.

 

[Paul7]

What's really important in the data presented, % of people who were not incapacitated, an important truth:

25 ACP 35%
22 long/short/LR 31%
32 ACP 40%

380 16%
38 SPL 17%
9MM 13%
357MAG 9%
40SW 13%
45 ACP 14%
44MAG 13%

This tell ME that along with all the service calibers, 380 is OK, and like the service calibers is 2x more effective than 32 and below.

That's what the data seems to say.

 

[Paul7]

So according to the linked findings, a .380 ACP is the same as a 357 Mag. Good to know .

The same in stopping an attack, not in gel block tests. Again, it's been said half the time ANY caliber is fired against an attacker it breaks off the attack.

The gel block tests are a controlled scenario with verifiable data. That simply measures a cartridges ability to reach vitals and expand, those are the variables in handgun performance that matters as we are not in the realm of velocities creating stretch cavities and hydrostatic shock.

The linked Effritz article is uncontrolled environments with great variables from shoot to shoot no doubt. I’ve seen and read that article and while a nice thought, I don’t give it credence in suggesting all handgun rounds are nearly equal in performance. But that’s my conjecture and certainly you are allowed yours.

Sounds like your mind in made up.

 

[Paul7]

By all means, carry what you want. We all have to do what we think is best, for us.

And as long as you actually practice with whatever it is, to the point of being able to use it without thought, and make good hits on demand with it, youll be way ahead of most. The practice part is really more important than the what you carry part, as if you cant make whatever that is work, across the board, on demand, whats it really matter what you have?

If you feel you have to compromise, then go right ahead, as long as you understand what comes of it. Compromise generally means you give up something to suit someone else, and really may not be in your best interest. Again, do what you think best, but keep in mind, more often than not, you dont "have" to.

I don't think I'm compromising given the data, and the fact a .380 can be shoot faster with more accuracy, and is more easily carried.

 

[Paul7]

A chart from your link shows 32 acp to be more effective than 40 S&W, 45 acp or 44 Mag.
View attachment 1146620
If we are skeptical about that piece of data (I am) then we (I) might wonder if FMJ and HP were tallied separately. Spoiler: No, they were not.
Also, smaller sample sizes might skew data, 32 acp is based on 25 incidents, 380 is 85 incidents, 9mm is 456 incidents.

Agreed.

If 380 performed as well at stopping people as 9mm then there would be US police departments issuing 380 for carry but that is not the case,

No, police have different needs, sometimes having to shoot through auto glass, etc.

I'll guess what might be coming next, ... but some cops can carry 380 off duty. Right. And that is not because they encounter easier to stop assailants when off duty; it is because most cops are not "into" guns and would not carry around a Glock 19 or larger size pistol off duty so they are allowed to carry something smaller just so they will be armed. It is not because they (the department) think 380 on par with 9mm. <----Said by somebody that was a cop for a couple years.

I never even thought of that argument, but I will say for decades cops carried .38s, which is comparable to the much smaller .380 round.

Given these options, a Ruger LCP 380, Glock 26 or Sig 365 all of which are easily concealable dressed in FL attire (shorts & shirt).

The last two are much heavier and bigger than the first.

I should have mentioned way back when in this thread is that due to a back issue, pocket carry works best for me rather than a heavier piece hanging on one side of my hip. Obviously you don't have that issue.

 

[Terry G]

Love these caliber wars. I have a nice little LCPII that I don't carry. I used to carry a CZ 82 in 9X18 MM until I realized a CZ P-01 was not that much bigger and heavier and held fifteen rounds of 9X19 MM. My search was over. I still carry a CZ 97b in .45 in the Winter months, but with all that said the little .380's have their place. They make good, very concealable back up guns or just in situations that demand ultra small firearms. Now the .30 Super Carry on the other hand........ .

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Well, in the world of firearms in general, ALL handguns are underpowered and are a compromise.

That compromise comes about because the drive for handguns is portability and concealability and to achieve this ammunition is directly impacted.


The .380 (or 9mm kurtz, German for "9mm short", which is exactly what the .380 is in reality) is nothing more than a continuation of this compromise.

The reality is that smaller bullets, lighter bullets, and slower bullets are the price you pay for ever smaller handguns. There's only so much you can get out of a handgun as you go smaller. It's the reality of the physics behind the engineering.

Modern technology and engineering has worked some impressive marvels...but you will never be able to pack a howitzer into a pocket pistol no matter how hard you try. And even if you COULD pack a howitzer round into a pocket pistol, you'll never get anything even CLOSE to howitzer performance out of it. Because "physics".

Can a .380 be used for self-defense? Certainly. However, on the full spectrum of calibers available in handguns, its comparative effectiveness lies on the lower end of the scale. Which means you need to balance various needs/concerns against that relative effectiveness to determine whether or not it's the best choice under the circumstances.

Honestly, everybody should be doing this with any caliber/handgun they are thinking about carrying.

@Frank Ettin has posted the following several times on the subject of ammunition performance self-defense, and it bears repeating:

So as a rule of thumb --

• More holes are better than fewer holes.
  
• Larger holes are better than smaller holes.
  
• Holes in the right places are better than holes in the wrong places.
  
• Holes that are deep enough are better than holes that aren't.
  
• There are no magic bullets.
  
• There are no guarantees.

 

[BreechFace]

This is the problem with a race to the bottom on effective calibers, personal justifications have to occur. Which is fine, each person's life is their own; and life is full of choices.

I carry a 9mm because it gives me what I consider the best compromise in capacity, control-ability, cost effectiveness for training, and heavily scrutinized performance (120 year old cartridge, fielded by countries around the world, FBI, law enforcement, and US Military).

9mm is a compromise over 40S&W on barrier penetration, and is a compromise over 45ACP on expansion. I don't downplay those compromises, they are what they are. I don't go and try to state otherwise in thread talking about 40S&W barrier penetration or 45ACP nearly 1" expansion properties. I've determined for my own needs that 9mm is the best rounded for what I may experience, especially given the improvements on bullet tech that gets the 9mm into a good position on penetration and expansion, where this once was not the case.

Again, it's been said half the time ANY caliber is fired against an attacker it breaks off the attack.

False, I've seen my fair share of attacks where a shot from a defendant doesn't break off an attack. I'm not going to bet my life on a pocket pistol in 380ACP against a perp that has adrenaline or is drug infused. I don't get to pick the time when I will have to use my firearm, the perpetrator gets to decide that.

Sounds like your mind in made up.

At this point between 380ACP and 9mm you are correct, my mind is made up. My Ruger LCP gets carried 5-6 times a year max, and I consider it a huge compromise over my Glock 48; but am thankful for its ability to conceal in anything but speedos.

It sounds like you have extenuating circumstances (bad hip, etc) that plays into the choice of 380 and pocket carry; which is fine, as long as you are ok with that compromise over whatever other firearm/cartridge you would potentially carry.

I've said enough in this thread, I'll just leave it at that. Carry what you feel is best for you, my observations are just trying to add to the conversation that others might be using to make decisions.

 

[trackskippy]

I don't think I'm compromising given the data, and the fact a .380 can be shoot faster with more accuracy, and is more easily carried.

I really dont understand how you come up with the 380 being faster and easier to shoot with, as that's not something Ive seen with both the blowback and lock breech 380's Ive owned and have shot pretty extensively.

And the smaller you go in size with the guns, the harder everything generally becomes. Maybe if you were comparing mid to full size guns of the same type in 380, you might see some slight difference, but certainly not with comparing "pocket" type guns to larger more hand filling guns that usually also have better sights and handling characteristics.

Not to mention, many if not most of those types of smaller guns usually severely limit your longer range shooting, which, believe it or dont, does figure into all this. Not everything is done in a 6' diameter circle with 3 rounds in 3 seconds.

And if youre going to throw all your eggs into one basket and go with "data", I think it would be better to go with something like the FBI's and the other major agency's data and research on this, than something some guy in a gun magazine threw together. They have spent big bucks doing the testing and research and do so on a continuing basis.

And even then, every gunfight really is still its own critter, as no two things ever are the same, and what it takes to solve things, is exactly what it takes. You can have the latest and greatest high dollar magic bullets in your gun, and still have piss poor results, simply because you didnt keep up on things on your end, and/or the other guy wasnt at all impressed with you or your fancy gun and ammo and you havent yet hit the switch to change their mind.

No matter what it is you might carry, there really is only one true rule here, you shoot them to the ground and as long as they are a threat you keep shooting until they arent.

No, police have different needs, sometimes having to shoot through auto glass, etc.

Sometimes we all might have to. What, makes you think you wont?

The Glock in a cops holster is no different than the Glock in my holster, and its there for the exact same reasons.

I never even thought of that argument, but I will say for decades cops carried .38s, which is comparable to the much smaller .380 round.

I think youll find that a proper 38 load is more comparable to 9mm than it is 380.

The last two are much heavier and bigger than the first.


I should have mentioned way back when in this thread is that due to a back issue, pocket carry works best for me rather than a heavier piece hanging on one side of my hip. Obviously you don't have that issue.

I wouldnt say they are "much heavier or bigger" than the other, but I guess that's subjective, and we all have different levels of sensitivity. The 26 is very easily carried and concealed, and shoots more like a full sized handgun, and at most of the same distances and in the same instances, than the other smaller guns of similar size can offer.

If you have medical issues, then you just do the best you can. Ive had my share of upper and lower back issues over the years, and the chiropractor bills to prove it, and fully understand what thats like, but I also know, that if you want to carry the gun you want to carry, problems or not, you can usually figure it out, if you do your homework and make the right choices in equipment/gear.

If pocket carry is the best you think you can get by with, then so be it. Just keep in mind, there are a ton of different types of holsters out there these days, that can make a big difference in how things are carried, issues or not, and you dont have to have weight causing hot spots on your belt or elsewhere if you have the right gear.

And quite often, a good, and proper gun belt can make a major difference there too, and give support to both your body and your gun.

 

[jar]

Today's redheaded stepchild is my Ruger Security 380 carried in a Ruger embossed Mitch Rosen Independent IWB holster.

 

[CDW4ME]

the fact a .380 can be shoot faster with more accuracy, and is more easily carried

What pocket size 380 is going to have split times on par with a Glock 26?

I've used a shot timer before, it let me know that I sacrificed about four hundredths second to carry a Glock 23 versus a 19; I felt like I was a little slower, the timer put a number to it. There are some differences so great a shot timer is unnecessary; the Ruger LCP 380 kicks more than my Glock 20 10mm and its not in the same realm of atmosphere for speed of follow up shots (with same accuracy standard) as a Glock 19 or 26.

Is the LCP easy to carry? Sure is.

No, police have different needs, sometimes having to shoot through auto glass, etc.

The last two are much heavier and bigger than the first.

I should have mentioned way back when in this thread is that due to a back issue, pocket carry works best for me rather than a heavier piece hanging on one side of my hip. Obviously you don't have that issue.

Back to the forearm blocking the torso, not auto glass. At least 12'' penetration with expansion in heavy clothed gel. Same for civilian as police.

The last statement is behind all of your prior pro 380 post, IMO; A pocket 380 is what you are willing or able to carry.
And there it is


Is a LCP 380 in pocket "better than nothing"? Absolutely.
Is a LCP 380 loaded with whatever bullet on par as a defensive weapon with a Glock 26 or Sig 365 loaded with HST? No.

 

[WheelGunMan]

Please carry what you want and practice with it.

BINGO....we have a winner!

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

View attachment 1146681

Oh, look, it's a puppy! Big, gray, peanut-loving puppy!

(Sorry...the child in me couldn't resist!)

 

[roscoe]

I don't think anyone was saying a pocket .380 was functionally equivalent to a double-stack 9mm. Its advantages are simple - it is so small, you can literally carry it anywhere. I have run 10 miles with my Kel-Tec clipped inside my Under Armor and never noticed its presence unless I patted it. I also can wear it in my jeans pocket and never have to worry if my shirt is tucked into my IWB or whatever. It doesn't jab my guts or ribs, and it never bangs. I don't have to worry if I reach up over my head that someone will see my gun, mags, baton, flashlight, taser, and BUG.

In short, it gives a reasonable amount of protection with literally no compromises in comfort, clothes choices, or firearm exposure. If I am collecting debts in downtown Kansas city, or repo-ing cars in Baltimore, I will probably carry a big ol' doublestack 9mm. But around town to the haberdashery, the tailor, the bootblack, and the snuffery, the .380 is perfect.

 

[Tallball]

"In short, it gives a reasonable amount of protection with literally no compromises in comfort, clothes choices, or firearm exposure."

Exactly. A reasonable amount of protection. If some idiot decides to mug me, an LCP can be in my hand quickly and help protect me. If someone is opening fire on me with a long gun from 25 yards away, it will be pretty much useless. I'm okay with that.

 

[Brubz]

"In short, it gives a reasonable amount of protection with literally no compromises in comfort, clothes choices, or firearm exposure."

Exactly. A reasonable amount of protection. If some idiot decides to mug me, an LCP can be in my hand quickly and help protect me. If someone is opening fire on me with a long gun from 25 yards away, it will be pretty much useless. I'm okay with that.

If someone opens up on you from 25 yards away with a long gun and they know how to use it you're pretty much "F***ed" anyway

 

[Paul7]

@Frank Ettin has posted the following several times on the subject of ammunition performance self-defense, and it bears repeating:

So as a rule of thumb --

• More holes are better than fewer holes.
• Larger holes are better than smaller holes.
• Holes in the right places are better than holes in the wrong places.
• Holes that are deep enough are better than holes that aren't.
• There are no magic bullets.
• There are no guarantees.

And IMHO I can get more holes in the right places with my G42, faster, than someone shooting a micro 9. I mentioned earlier in this thread of an article where gun mag writers themselves were 50% less accurate shooting a micro 9 than with a .380.

 

[Paul7]

I don't think anyone was saying a pocket .380 was functionally equivalent to a double-stack 9mm. Its advantages are simple - it is so small, you can literally carry it anywhere. I have run 10 miles with my Kel-Tec clipped inside my Under Armor and never noticed its presence unless I patted it. I also can wear it in my jeans pocket and never have to worry if my shirt is tucked into my IWB or whatever. It doesn't jab my guts or ribs, and it never bangs. I don't have to worry if I reach up over my head that someone will see my gun, mags, baton, flashlight, taser, and BUG.

In short, it gives a reasonable amount of protection with literally no compromises in comfort, clothes choices, or firearm exposure. If I am collecting debts in downtown Kansas city, or repo-ing cars in Baltimore, I will probably carry a big ol' doublestack 9mm. But around town to the haberdashery, the tailor, the bootblack, and the snuffery, the .380 is perfect.

THANK YOU, exactly what I've been trying to say. Lucky for me I'm not in the debt collection or repo businesses. Gel block tests are not the only criteria!

 

[Paul7]

What pocket size 380 is going to have split times on par with a Glock 26?

I've used a shot timer before, it let me know that I sacrificed about four hundredths second to carry a Glock 23 versus a 19; I felt like I was a little slower, the timer put a number to it. There are some differences so great a shot timer is unnecessary; the Ruger LCP 380 kicks more than my Glock 20 10mm and its not in the same realm of atmosphere for speed of follow up shots (with same accuracy standard) as a Glock 19 or 26.

Which is why I got rid of my LCP, that and it didn't work. I'm talking about a G42 in this thread.

Back to the forearm blocking the torso, not auto glass. At least 12'' penetration with expansion in heavy clothed gel. Same for civilian as police.

Who decided on 12"? You're saying a perp who just got shot in the arm is going to continue the attack? That isn't what happened in the video I posted, see #69 in this thread. That does count as some kind of evidence.

The last statement is behind all of your prior pro 380 post, IMO; A pocket 380 is what you are willing or able to carry.
And there it is
View attachment 1146681

Lots of people without back issues carry a .380 too, and I probably would too even without my issues.