380 auto Vs 9 mm...you really give up a lot in power...

[The Tourist]

two holes, in and out, to bleed out

This is the conventional wisdom when shooting whitetail deer. They weaken, they leave a good blood trail and they are easier to find.

That's not what we value in defending against an agressor. We want the guy shut down, the faster the better.

My SIL is a Red Cross nurse. She has told me that if I successfully cut an agressor's femoral atrery, he might go down in 90 seconds to eight minutes.

That's a bit longer than I want to fight a young pup who might be stronger than I am, or better trained in the martial arts. The benefit of such a wound is simply that he will weaken--and if that's the only opening I can get, it is indeed better than nothing.

To this debate, if I fire the "golden bullet" from a .380 and get lucky enough to hit the heart or spinal cord, the fight is over.

Considering the restraints on a citizen, the close proximity of a realistic fight and the real issue that people in general don't tote big pistols, this isn't a bad thing.

 

[DougDubya]

Lonestar - I'm talking about carrying BOTH. When the 9mm runs dry, instead of doing a reload drill, draw the .380 and continue firing.

ie: you run your EMP to slidelock, and then if the hostilities aren't finished, or even if they are, draw your .380 rather than remove your focus from situational awareness during the reload.

 

[Lonestar49]

Sure, anything is possible, I guess

Lonestar - I'm talking about carrying BOTH. When the 9mm runs dry, instead of doing a reload drill, draw the .380 and continue firing.

ie: you run your EMP to slidelock, and then if the hostilities aren't finished, or even if they are, draw your .380 rather than remove your focus from situational awareness during the reload.

...

Not sure I'm buyin it, meaning, if I did carry my P232 as a bug-gun, but I don't, it would be in a ankle holster, under Levi's 90% of the time. And since the EMP comes with 3 mags (9 rounds each) I know, speaking for myself, that I can get any of my reserve mags by feel, without looking, and make the re-load in under 3 sec's. I know, again, speaking for myself, IF (again, which I don't) went to get the bug gun (from my ankle holster) not only would I have to lose my field-view (SA) but, would have to pull up the paint leg, un-snap the thumbstrap, then pull out the gun, then hopefully re-acquire the target, and there is no way I can get to it, get the paint leg up and over it, un-snap it, and draw it out in less than 6 sec's, but that's just me.

Honestly, IF I did carry it as a bug gun, it would only come into use IF my primary gun ran out of ammo, or failed, jammed, and could not be cleared in 3 sec's, then I would go for the back-up bug gun..

But, don't carry one, and the EMP has proven itself 100% reliable, along with the new, good, ammo I have used over some 15,000 rounds, without any failure to fires..

But, I guess someone could carry one in the front waist-band area and with or without a thumb-strap, and pull it fairly fast.. But my thinking, again is, only if one's primary weapon has a malfunction that cannot be resolved within 3 secs.. or at all.


Ls

 

[Cannonball888]

380acp ball ammo IF 95gr, is better apt to penetrate far better than the same in JHP 95gr..

And 380 +P is significantly better. Buffalo Bore is the only commercial mfg I know of that makes it.

 

[TehK1w1]

Wow, those Buff Bore .380 +p loads are duplicating higher-end Makarov loadings.

 

[DougDubya]

Ah, Lonestar - it's just a matter of opinion.

My ideas are formed by the New York plainclothes policemen who carried 3 or 4 revolvers on their person when going on the rough streets, or Evan Marshall who says "if you have time to reload, you're not in a real gunfight."

Not saying anything is WRONG with using the magazines and the semi-auto's much faster than revolver reloads.

Just giving a raison d' etre for the .380 in the age of the mini mini 9's.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

Doug, I just bought a LCP for those times when I can't carry one of my Glocks, or even my 642. I know it's a compromise, but it's still better than nothing. Besides, .380 was good enough for that retired Israeli dude from Stony Man...

Did you get the Camaro book?

 

[Wopasaurus]

I guess I shouldn't mention that I carry a 32acp for my BUG, should I? Hell, I figure if it was good enough to start WWII and good enough for Hitler to commit suicide with, it's good enough for me!

I dunno, I saw at least 3 of the actual guns that Hitler killed himself with at the last gunshow I went to.

 

[Lonestar49]

Hey DD

Just giving a raison d' etre for the .380 in the age of the mini mini 9's.

Think we agree here, given the many fine "choices" one can make in getting a small, or sc, 9mm with a higher round count, than most small 380's, along with, a *locked breach vs most of the 380's blow-back-action, is a *big-plus, in as much, as a cleaner-staying, firing, gun with less muzzle flip or gun torque, IMO, basing that on my EMP vs my P232. 380.

But, both are beautiful looking guns..

But, either gun, given the right user's shot placement/s will do the job..

My best,


Ls

 

[DougDubya]

Got the Camaro book, Lobotomy boy.

And, I just love the Beretta 84, since your mention of Katz reminded me of my favorite .380.

 

[oneounceload]

Doug Dub ya

what NYC cops carry 3-4 guns??..My dad was NYPD for 33 years..never saw this 3-4 gun stuff.....besides, if you can't hit your target with 9 or 10 rounds - either you need more practice, or you're too far away and shouldn't be firing your weapon............JMO

 

[DistantHorizon]

The Kel-Tec PF-9 is extremely comfortable in a dress pocket (I tested myself) and it offers the same magazine capacity than other pocketable .380s.....if the PF-9 would be extremely reliable as well (I don't know about that I do not have experience with the gun) why limit yourself with a round significantly less powerful?? (we are talking about 70-80% difference here, not few ft/lbs...)

Not everyone has the exact same body type, style of dress, same requirements for movement throughout their day (squatting etc), as you do.

Just because it works for you, does not mean it will work for everyone. Yeah, the LCP is only a little smaller than the PF9. But, "a little smaller" makes a world of difference when concealing a gun, especially a pocket gun. Yeah, the .380 is much weaker than the 9x19. But what you see as "limiting yourself with a round significantly less powerful", many people will see as carrying a .380 instead of carrying a nothing.

Nothing is a REALLY lousy cartridge.

 

[oneounceload]

Just because it works for you, does not mean it will work for everyone. Yeah, the LCP is only a little smaller than the PF9. But, "a little smaller" makes a world of difference when concealing a gun, especially a pocket gun. Yeah, the .380 is much weaker than the 9x19. But what you see as "limiting yourself with a round significantly less powerful", many people will see as carrying a .380 instead of carrying a nothing.

right!

Rule number 1 of a gunfight - BRING A GUN!....

10 hits from a .22 at close range is better than a loud miss from a .44!

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I have a Beretta 86, a large .380 holding 8+1 shots. It is a collector (I like its unusual design) and "fun" gun for me, though, not a defense gun. It is almost exactly the same size as a Glock 19, a 16-shot 9mm. Why would I use the 86 in preference to that? Even if you drop down in size to the classic pocket autos like the Walther PPK, Kahrs - of roughly equal size - beat them in the power department. The .380's real use for me is an even smaller pocket auto, for those times when I simply cannot carry anything bigger, or as a backup.

 

[mavracer]

Even if you drop down in size to the classic pocket autos like the Walther PPK, Kahrs - of roughly equal size - beat them in the power department.

yes but recoil will be worse and they are nowhere near as accurate.

 

[Hokkmike]

Everyone who wants to take chance and get hit with a .380 let me know.

(didn't think so)

OF COURSE bigger is better. My .40 will outperform my .380. But to call a .380 a "bug-gun" is a serious misstatement. That is, unless you are dealing with a 150 pound bug.

 

[jgo296]

i believe its time to again mention the 10mm 750 ft lbs easily achievable

 

[skywarp_]

The glock 29 is the compromise.


Massive power of the 10mm coupled with a carry size

 

[saturno_v]

Too bad you cannot really put a Glock 29 in your pocket....

 

[DougDubya]

oneounceload - What NYC cops carried 3-4 guns?

Jim Cirillo - 2 model 10's, a Colt Cobra and a Walther PPK.
Bill Allred - supplemented his model 10's with a Colt National Match.

Phil Engeldrum spoke often about NYPD officers preferring to just draw another revolver than fumble with a reload. And, the NYPD authorizes and mandates the carry of a backup weapon, even with high capacity 9mm autos nowadays.

 

[DougDubya]

saturno v - it depends on your pants.

The jeans I'm wearing today, I'd feel lucky to be able to slip a Seecamp into my pocket. With other pants, I've gotten a Glock 19 in 'em.

 

[saturno_v]

saturno v - it depends on your pants.

The jeans I'm wearing today, I'd feel lucky to be able to slip a Seecamp into my pocket. With other pants, I've gotten a Glock 19 in 'em.

Let's say pants in general

But probalby once you decide to carry a pocket pistol, you should start to pay attention into the kind of pants you are going to buy and wear in the future...as they say "dress appropriately...."

 

[DougDubya]

Saturno - I'm assisted by the fact that I have a 40 inch plus waist. Pockets made for those pants are unusually forgiving of mid-sized handguns.

 

[AdamSean]

I agree that 9mm is a better chance at ending the attack quicker and more effectively. But it is difficult for me to carry my PF-9 in my back pocket at work so my P-3AT slides in there with FMJ. At a close range, I will not miss. Two factors are the main result here: ease of use in the particular round and confidence in the shooter. I trust my life to my P-3AT and I can hit a 6 inch plate with rapid fire easily.

Outside of work, however, I carry my 9mm.

 

[Claude Clay]

perception plays a big part in self defense. as in, i pointed my omc at a dude--he dropped his knife and said " s*** he's got a 45!'. i surmise that seeing the bbl from the wrong end influences its apparent size. besides, 380 would look/is the same as 9...
if you have to drop the hammer, shot placement allows for 380 as a self defense round (barely)