.380ACP Carry Ammo Question

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I still haven't seen any data showing adequate penetration of .380 HP's from any length barrel.

I have 3 pistols in the photo gallery on the Bersa site! :D
 
can fmj be loaded in the seecamp .380, or is it sized only for jhp like its little brother?
 
I think the best round for my KT3AT is the 95 grain blunt nose White Box Winchester FMJ semi-wadcutter. The velocity averages 847 fps from my Kel Tec.

The Santa Barbara round is hot! My KT3AT trigger mechanicals broke half way into the second magazine. The average velocity was 917 fps but one round was 1008 fps. The kick was very severe. If you have a more solid built pistol than the Kel Tec I think the semi-wadcutter soft point Santa Babara round might be the way to go.

Of the normal American made common 95 grain 380 FMJ rounds the highest velocity was from American Eagle that averaged 867 fps. The Remington UMC brand averaged about the same as the Winchester white box rounds at 846 fps.

Avoid Rusian Sapsan FMJ ammo. The velocity was like 680 fps and would not fully cycle the slide.
 
If velocity or copper bullets is what's important to you, then go for it.

I'll stick with penetration.
 
Anyone else mix the magazine? I alternate FMJ with Hydrashocks. If the occasion should arrise I plan to shoot several if not many times. :)

Lou
 
enfield
Senior Member

I still haven't seen any data showing adequate penetration of .380 HP's from any length barrel.
__________________
- enfield

enfield, what do you consider adequate penetration?
 
At least 12 inches, consistently, in calibrated ballistic gelatin. The same requirement the FBI has -- I don't think I'm smarter than them.
 
Santa Barbara truncated cone FMJ if we're talking about using it in a P-3AT.

It's a real stomper for .380, no concerns about penetration and an effective tissue crushing profile (for an FMJ).

Contrary to popular belief, this round is an enclosed base open-tip design, it is NOT a soft point, it will not expand.
 
The following is from a post at the Ktog message board__________

"Just tested the Santa Barbara 87g. Spanish ammo (yes I weighed the recovered bullets), manufacturing lot March, 1983. Used my usual medium of hypersaturated newsprint, stacked to a depth of 12 inches. The results were quite impressive. I fired four rounds: the first, in the chamber, would be the non-smiley round; the other rounds would show the effects (or non-effects) of smilies.
Here are the results:

Round 1: Penetration of 10.75" (equates to 16.125" in
bare ballistic gelatin, supposedly). No expansion, no
deformation.

Rounds 2 and 3: Penetrated 12" pack completely and
not recovered (yet) in the soft dirt behind my setup.

Round 4: Penetration of 11.25" (16.875" bare gelatin)
No expansion, no deformation.

When you consider that the Speer Gold Dot penetrated a similar wetpack 5.5-6" and the high velocity Corbon JHP was in the 7-8" range, you realize this is no downstream round. The Spanish police picked a good one."
 
I really need to warn everyone one the use of Santa Barbara ammo in Kel Tec 3AT pistols. I have a big bag of it that I will not use because shooting one and a half magazines of this stuff battered the hell out of my Kel Tec. It even caused a blister on my trigger finger. The trigger stopped functioning after about ten rounds of this stuff. The velocity spread was pretty wide with some rounds being really hot.

It would be your luck that your Kel Tec will fail with this Santa Barbara ammo at the worst time.

If you have a stronger made 380 then you might consider Santa Barbara ammo.

On a side note: Santa Barbara 38 special ammo is the hottest 38 ammo I have ever fired out of my 2 inch 357 revolver.
 
Used my usual medium of hypersaturated newsprint, stacked to a depth of 12 inches.



I've been using stale marshmallows, toasted to a light golden brown, and soaked in cranberry juice, packed into empty #10 cans of Spam. By my calculations, this should exactly reproduce 10% ballistic gelatin.
 
From lbmii:
I really need to warn everyone one the use of Santa Barbara ammo in Kel Tec 3AT pistols. I have a big bag of it that I will not use because shooting one and a half magazines of this stuff battered the hell out of my Kel Tec. It even caused a blister on my trigger finger. The trigger stopped functioning after about ten rounds of this stuff. The velocity spread was pretty wide with some rounds being really hot.

It would be your luck that your Kel Tec will fail with this Santa Barbara ammo at the worst time.

If you have a stronger made 380 then you might consider Santa Barbara ammo.

On a side note: Santa Barbara 38 special ammo is the hottest 38 ammo I have ever fired out of my 2 inch 357 revolver.

Sounds like you had a little bit of bad luck with your pistol.

I have put about 300 rounds of Santa Barbra 380 through one of my three P-3ATs without a hitch and have shot at least 150 rounds through another of my P-3ATs without any problems of any kind.

I have also shot 20 round of Santa Barbara through my new 2nd generation P-3AT and no problems there either.

I do think you should have a recoil spring in the pistol that is reasonably fresh so that it will absorb a lot of the recoil when shooting Santa Barbara ammo.

Recoil with Santa Barbara ammo in the P-3AT for me is a non issue. Yes it is noticable, but nowhere near the recoil of a magnum revolver or even a light weight 38 special revolver for that matter.

By the way, what was it that happened to your trigger?
 
Spam (TM) doesn't come in #10 cans.

Okay... you got me. It was an empty #10 can of peaches. Does this mean my results won't be as accurate?
 
Your results will be head and shoulders above anything Marshall & Sanow ever did (unless you can find a 10# of goat meat).
 
I carry a P3AT in my pocket, and I use FMJ's virtually all the time. I do have some of those 380 PowR' Balls and I suppose they are OK. But the bottom line is, I'm looking to stop a situation...
 
I also live in Florida and carry a NAA Guardian 380 whenver I can't carry my Taurus PT-145. The weight of the Guardian is not an issue for me. It helps when shooting more than a couple rounds, like when going to the range as small 380's have quite a bit of snap. I load the Guardian with 102gr Remington Golden Sabers JHP's. I saw 2 articles that helped me make this determination. One was on the NAA website. Oldgrandpa did a wet pack test and photographed the results. The other was shared by someone on a Kel-Tec forum. That person shot at meat, then the wet pack. Both confirmed the Golden Sabers were the choice for me.
 
Santa Barbara Surplus Sucks!

Decided to buy a box and see what’s up with the very wide velocity variations reported.

Paid $3.25 for a 25 round box. The box is marked March 1983, and the cartridge head-stamps are SB-T 9C 82. Primers are sealed with Green lacquer. Cases show light corrosion beginning to form.

I weighed all 25 rounds and found the average weight to be 140.3 grains, with a low of 138.6, and a high of 141.5.

Cartridge overall length averaged .9556”, with a low of .944”, and a high of .966”. This is a huge difference (.020”) in OAL, and it appears reports of bullet set-back may be coming out of the box that way!

Next up, I selected the 3 lightest, 3 heaviest, and 4 mid-way in total weight, and pulled the bullets. Here are the results:
OAL Total weight Case Bullet Powder
.957” 138.6 gr. 45.4 gr. 87.7 gr. 5.4 gr.
.960” 139.3 gr. 45.8 gr. 88.0 gr. 5.4 gr.
.946” 139.8 gr. 46.2 gr. 88.2 gr. 5.5 gr.
.949” 140.0 gr. 47.5 gr. 87.1 gr. 5.3 gr.
.961” 140.1 gr. 47.3 gr. 87.5 gr. 5.4 gr.
.954” 140.4 gr. 47.1 gr. 87.8 gr. 5.3 gr.
.964” 140.4 gr. 46.3 gr. 88.6 gr. 5.4 gr.
.961” 140.7 gr. 47.6 gr. 87.7 gr. 5.5 gr.
.944” 141.2 gr. 48.1 gr. 87.6 gr. 5.3 gr.
.952” 141.6 gr. 48.0 gr. 88.1 gr. 5.3 gr.

Average:
.9548” 140.2 gr. 46.93 gr. 87.83 gr. 5.38 gr.

Difference, low - high:
.020” 2.9 gr. 2.7 gr. 1.5 gr. .02 gr.

Percent difference:
2% 2% 6% 2% 4%

Now none of this may seem too extreme, however it’s a lot more variation then you would ever find in most any other .380 ammo you care to check. For example, I weighed and measured 25 rounds of S&B ammo, and came up with a loaded cartridge weight variation of only 1.6 grains, and an OAL variation of only .004”.

Now, the odd part. While pulling the SB-T bullets with an inertia bullet pullet, I noticed some of them popped out with a light tap, and others required several hard blows. Bullets are sealed in the case with an asphalt sealer, however it appeared to be uniformly applied, and could not account for that much difference in neck tension.

Next, I measured all 10 pulled bullets and found they all measured .3535”, or 1 ½ thousandths Smaller then the established .380/9mm .355” bore size!

My observations:
1. SB-T is loaded with an average of 5.38 grains of powder. This is a very large charge, and would have be considered a relatively slow burning powder for the .380 cartridge in order to use that much. It would probably fall somewhere in the range of Alliant Herco or Blue Dot in burning rate.

2. Very doubtful you could expect to always get a complete burn in a very short barrel with powder this slow.

3. Powder appears to be changing color from gray to yellow, and may be in the early stages of decomposition. This is likely caused from improper storage at high temperature, and not from age. (Properly stored, 24 year old ammo should be as perfect as the day it was made.)

4. Case neck tension is very low, and even after resizing the cases, still was not as tight as it should have been. It is mostly dependent on the asphalt sealer to hold the bullet in place.
It could be the cause of the ammo being declared “surplus”!

5. Whether or not the under-size bullets were intentional, (to lower pressure) or by accident, is open to speculation. If it was intentional, you would assume they would have used under-sized loading dies to maintain proper case neck tension. But they didn’t!
This could also have caused it to be declared “surplus”!

6. Quality control of OAL, and weights of all components is perhaps the worst I have ever seen in over 40 years of reloading.

7. The wide velocity swings reported are probably caused by the under-size bullets allowing gas to leak past them in the bore. I feel confident some of the bullets bump up to fill the bore and get a good gas seal, and resulting high pressure & velocity, while others do not. And that results in gas leaking past the bullet, less pressure, and lower velocity on some of them.

rcmodel
 
I have Federal Hydra Shok 90gr in my Keltec P3AT. It seems to work for me.
Does that mean you stopped a bg with it or just that it goes bang?

I always wondered what "it works for me" means!
 
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