41 mag load development

[Dirt farmer]

I have been working up a hunting load with Remington 210 grain JSP bullets for my Model 57. Using Charlie98 load of 20.8 H110 as starting point I shot oen cartridge each at 20.8 gr, 21.0 gr, and 21.2 gr of H110 powder just to check for flat primer and ease of extraction. All was well.
Next I loaded three each at 20.6 gr, 20.8 gr, 21.0 gr, 21.2 gr of H110. I shot from bench with sand bags at 15 yards.

The results were rather discouraging using a pistol with 8 3/8" barrel at 15 yards. Either my shooting skills have degraded or my gun dislikes this load.

To confirm my shooting ability or if the one shot was a "flyer" I shot 5 rounds with 20.8 gr H110, again at 15 yards from bench with sandbags. The 2 1/8" spread confirmed the original grouping, no "flyer" involved.

Since the 21.0 grain load was much better at 1 1/4" 3-shot group.
With 21.0 grain of H110, I Shot a 5-shot group at 15 yards. Still very discouraging group.

Having read about loads with this weight of bullet, H110 powder and Model 57 with 8 3/8" barrel with loadings as high as 22.2 grains of H110, I decided to load one each of 21.4 gr, 21.6 6gr, 22.0 gr, 22.2 gr, 22.4 gr. and test them for flat primer, difficult extraction, and general accuracy at 15 yards. Something marvelous happened... Is this simply what is called an "accuracy node"? The first 4 rounds created one ragged hole. Primers were ok and extractions were good. Now we're getting somewhere.

I think next I'll load three each of 21.8 gr, 21.9 gr and 22.0 gr and see which load get the tightest group.

 

[Iroquois]

Nice load work up. Looks like your making great progress. Keep us posted.

 

[RJM52]

Dirt Farmer...nice loads..I also sent you a PM about the SP bullets.. I found an easy formula with H110...fill the case until the bullet just sits on top of the powder. This will of course vary with the bullet even with bullets of equal weight because the crimping groove are different heights from the base of the bullet.

To measure, take a wooden dowel that just fits inside the case. Put it next to the bullet to be seated and put a pencil mark on the dowel even with the top of the crimping groove. Now fill the case with powder to about where the base of the bullet would be and check it with the dowel. Once the correct powder charge is established, weigh the charge and round off to the nearest half grain just to make things easy.

If you want to check the load for safety, once you know what the max load is, load 6 rounds each of loads 1-2-3 grains less than topend and shoot them first.

In shooting thousands of topend .357s, .41s and .44s I've found with H110 if the bullet is seated on top of the powder just LIGHTLY compressing it to hold it in place, I get the tightest groups, highest safe velocity, cleanest burning and the lowest Standard Deviation. Use a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die and crimp heavy...



Charlie...if you have not chronographed that load:
From a 4" 57
8.0/950 (my favorite target load)
9.0/1100 (Use in S&Ws with a 215 cast HP)
10.0/1180 (Hunting load in S&Ws with a 215 cast PentaPoint)

..just a great round...Bob

 

[Dirt farmer]

So I waited too late today and was shooting into the sun. I'm going to have to repeat the work as I couldn't get a good sight picture of the top of the front sight. I did learn one thing to day though. The primers were pretty flat on the 22.0 grain H110 loads. All cases extracted easy but I'm a bit worried about that flat of primers. See photos attached. What do you think about the one on the right?

 

[Merle1]

So I waited too late today and was shooting into the sun. I'm going to have to repeat the work as I couldn't get a good sight picture of the top of the front sight. I did learn one thing to day though. The primers were pretty flat on the 22.0 grain H110 loads. All cases extracted easy but I'm a bit worried about that flat of primers. See photos attached. What do you think about the one on the right?View attachment 780721

I'd back it down a little - as it could go over the top on a hot day.....

 

[Dirt farmer]

I found an easy formula with H110...fill the case until the bullet just sits on top of the powder. This will of course vary with the bullet even with bullets of equal weight because the crimping groove are different heights from the base of the bullet.

To measure, take a wooden dowel that just fits inside the case. Put it next to the bullet to be seated and put a pencil mark on the dowel even with the top of the crimping groove. Now fill the case with powder to about where the base of the bullet would be and check it with the dowel. Once the correct powder charge is established, weigh the charge and round off to the nearest half grain just to make things easy.

Being a Manufacturing Engineer "I trust but verify". I calculated your above method as follows:
(Note: All measurements were collected using a Frankford Arsenal digital caliper)
Inside depth of my 41 mag cases are 1.081"
Base of Remington 210 gr JSP bullet to top of canalure is 0.416"
Available powder height then is 1.081 - 0.416 = 0.665"
Inside diameter of case is 0.410"
Available case volume then is calculated as area of cylinder times the available powder height
Area = pi x d squared/4 = 0.132 square inches, times height 0.665" = 0.0878 cubic inches
Convert to cc by multiplying by 16.3871 = 1.4387 cc
The Lee Volume Measure Density (VMD) value for H110 is 0.0656
1.4387cc divided by 0.0656 grains/cc = Theoretical available case volume will hold 21.93 grains of H110, minor rounding up to 22.0 grains.

RJM52, I'm right there with you at maximum load, however I got the above photo flattened primers at 22.0 grains of H110.

 

[Merle1]

Being a Manufacturing Engineer "I trust but verify". I calculated your above method as follows:
(Note: All measurements were collected using a Frankford Arsenal digital caliper)
Inside depth of my 41 mag cases are 1.081"
Base of Remington 210 gr JSP bullet to top of canalure is 0.416"
Available powder height then is 1.081 - 0.416 = 0.665"
Inside diameter of case is 0.410"
Available case volume then is calculated as area of cylinder times the available powder height
Area = pi x d squared/4 = 0.132 square inches, times height 0.665" = 0.0878 cubic inches
Convert to cc by multiplying by 16.3871 = 1.4387 cc
The Lee Volume Measure Density (VMD) value for H110 is 0.0656
1.4387cc divided by 0.0656 grains/cc = Theoretical available case volume will hold 21.93 grains of H110, minor rounding up to 22.0 grains.

RJM52, I'm right there with you at maximum load, however I got the above photo flattened primers at 22.0 grains of H110.

individual guns vary - some take more - some take less

 

[RJM52]

WOW!!! That is quite the calculation!!!

And yes..that is WAY too flat a primer... What primer are you using? I use the Winchester LP for all my H110 loads as it is made for Standard and Magnum loads and does well with Ball type powders.

I don't think I have any data with the Remington SP but it should be right in the 22.0 grain range. I am using 22.0 grains with a Cast Performance 255 grain hardcast at 1350 fps and no flat primers or sticky extraction... The 250 CP has a longer shank and only will run 20.0 grains...

As to the Remington 210 SP bullet...from all I have read and all the tests I have done, they don't expand at all. One of the guys over on the S&W Forums has shot a bunch of deer and all were pass through shots. I ran one into my water trap. It went through six jugs of water and berried itself in the body armor panel I had as a catch stop...and cracked the jug behind it... The bullet was barely expanded... It would make a dandy bullet for bear defense however. But, they are now hard to find. You may be better served by a hardcast as they can be driven faster with less pressure...and easy to find.

Bob

 

[RealGun]

So I waited too late today and was shooting into the sun. I'm going to have to repeat the work as I couldn't get a good sight picture of the top of the front sight. I did learn one thing to day though. The primers were pretty flat on the 22.0 grain H110 loads. All cases extracted easy but I'm a bit worried about that flat of primers. See photos attached. What do you think about the one on the right?View attachment 780721

Yesterday I left my 45 Colt Redhawk, the older 5.5" model that had been ported, with my gunsmith because spent cases were sticking with a "Ruger only", Tier II load that should have been no problem. Turns out the throats are so tight that a .452 XTP will enter only on three chambers. I want to shoot .453 lead, some with gas checks. Indications are that the gun will get reamed to .4525, chambers checked for consistency in diameter, and forcing cone recut. These changes should reduce pressure and should preclude primer flattening. I had been using 19-21.5 gr IMR 4227 with CCI magnum primers and 250 gr lead RNFP by Xtreme.

This is yet another of my Rugers, past and present, with cylinder issues, dating back several years.

 

[Charlie98]

Dirk... those are some pretty flat primers!

RMJ52, I'm familiar with both the 250 and 255grn CP bullets... your 22.0grn H110 is 2.5grn OVER CP's published data. What are you shooting those in?

 

[RealGun]

We're onto reloading rather than the guns, but to comment on what is the string at the moment, I know H110 behind lead bullets as off the reservation unless using gas checks. I would have to wonder about target patterns having something to do with varying condition of the bullets after being cooked over that hot fire.

 

[RJM52]

The 250 and 255 loads... They have been shot in a 4" 57, 6.5" and 4 5/8" Blackhawks, Reeder Custom 5-shot, Ruger BH Hunter, Ruger Redhawk and a Freedom Arms 654. The 250s have also been shot in a 97...

I don't shoot the loads very much in the 57s because the front sight is not tall enough and they hit about 6" above POA at 25 yards. That and my hand is getting tired of being beaten by the S&W grips...so the Smiths now mainly get shot with 210-220 grain loads with 8, 9 or 10 grains of Unique...

Loading books are a guide. There have been many "published" loads that that were way over pressure when others tried them. Always start low and work up...every gun/bullet/powder lot/primer is going to act differently...and get a chronograph...they are cheap and can tell you a lot if you know what you are looking for...

Bob

 

[RealGun]

<snip>

Loading books are a guide. There have been many "published" loads that that were way over pressure when others tried them. Always start low and work up...every gun/bullet/powder lot/primer is going to act differently...and get a chronograph...they are cheap and can tell you a lot if you know what you are looking for...

Bob

Which ties in with my current situation. My Redhawk was sticking cases badly with loads that should have been okay. Turns out the throats were tight enough that a jacketed bullet nose fit only three throats, none passing through. I was shooting .453 lead in a 45 Colt with an even tighter fit. I asked my gunsmith to open it up (and make the throats uniform). He suggested recutting the forcing cone as well. The good news is he had it finished the next day. How's that for service? I pick it up this morning.

 

[Charlie98]

Loading books are a guide.

I'm aware of that. Back in my younger days, my brother and I just about ruined his 6" model 57 hotrodding it, these days my Smiths get the 'softball' load... I save the big boomers for the Dan Wesson, however, I don't go over published data, I don't see any reason to.

Which ties in with my current situation. My Redhawk was sticking cases badly with loads that should have been okay. Turns out the throats were tight enough that a jacketed bullet nose fit only three throats, none passing through. I was shooting .453 lead in a 45 Colt with an even tighter fit. I asked my gunsmith to open it up (and make the throats uniform). He suggested recutting the forcing cone as well. The good news is he had it finished the next day. How's that for service? I pick it up this morning.

Let us know how that turns out... I have the same problem with both my .45 Colt Vaquero and .44SPC Blackhawk. I've had the cylinders reamed, but I'm debating having the forcing cone on the .44 looked at.

 

[Dirt farmer]

I'm moving my thread from the .41 Mag Association forum since this is all about handloading:
I have a S&W Model 57, 41 magnum with 8 3/8" barrel. I'm working up three different bullet loads:
1) Deer load using Remington 210 gr JSP bullet with H110 powder
2) Plinking load using 215 gr ACME SWC cast bullet sized to 0.411", with Unique powder
3) Bear Load 250 gr Beartooth LFN GC cast bullet sized to 0.410",with H110 powder
My current work is on the Remington 210 grain Jacketed Soft Point bullet. Using H110 powder I was getting crumby groups at the low end around 20+ grains. I've been working up as high as 22.4 grains and getting flattened primers above 21.8 grains. I've been using mixed cases and CCI Large Pistol Magnum primers.



The 21.9 grain load shot three bullets into two holes but has occasional flat primer so I'm going to load 5 with non-magnum Large Pistol Primers with 21.9 grains H110 and see if that removes the flat primer condition and still gives the best accuracy. I'm also going to load 5 with 21.8 grains H110 with Large Pistol Magnum primers and see if it can deliver the group I think it can. I'll report back as soon as it quits raining...

 

[Walkalong]

I brought the responding posts from there and put them here as well.

 

[Blue68f100]

I would stick with the Mag primer for the H110/W296. Make sure you use a heavy crimp to ensure consistent combustion.

Do you have a crony to check your loads with?

Shooting supported or non?

 

[Dirt farmer]

I like the results of changing from Large Pistol Magnum primer to regular Large Pistol primers. See photo.
Magnum primers with 21.8 gr H110 on the left ( note - some very flat primers)
Non-magnum primers with 21.9 gr H110 on the right. No flat primers.

Also, I learned something new. Since I had already put the magnum primers in over 300 empty cases I had to remove the magnum primer to replace it with non-magnum primer. I know better than to punch out a live primer with a decapping die so I thought the best solution would be to shoot them in my revolver. Well, it discharged the primer ok but it backed the primer out of the case quite a ways and I had a dickens of a time getting the cylinder to both rotate as well as open. Since I was only doing 5 I just battled through it. If I had to remove more, like 100 of them, that would not be a good method.
Do any of you have a better method for removing live primers from empty cases?

 

[Walkalong]

Yea, it will tie up a revolver. They back out all the time, but when the powder goes off they get re-seated.

If you don't have a universal decapping die, just resize them to knock out the primers and then re-use them.

 

[Dirt farmer]

I would stick with the Mag primer for the H110/W296. Make sure you use a heavy crimp to ensure consistent combustion.

Do you have a crony to check your loads with?

Shooting supported or non?

1. I'm using a Lee set of dies which allows for a heavy crimp in the cannelure.
2. I do not have a crony to check my loads, nor do I know anyone with one.
3. I'm shooting supported; from sandbags on a shooting bench at a target 15 yards away.

 

[RealGun]

Before changing primers on H110 for the 250 bullets I would change powders or use lighter bullets. Pressure signs are to be expected otherwise. How serious is a flat primer? A faster powder, maybe AA#7, should be worth trying. The 200-210 gr bullet seems more ideal for the 41, which would not be my first choice for a "bear gun".

 

[Walkalong]

With H-110, he could stick with the non mag primers or back off a hair on the one with mag primers and test both against each other.

He wants full power hunting loads and AA #7 isn't going to get it for him.

 

[RealGun]

With H-110, he could stick with the non mag primers or back off a hair on the one with mag primers and test both against each other.

He wants full power hunting loads and AA #7 isn't going to get it for him.

I find that too dismissive. What he needs is to find what works with a heavy bullet or change the plan.

 

[Walkalong]

Now you're just being ridiculous. "dismissive"? Really? It was merely a suggestion, and a good one IMHO.

He has a plan, he just needs to tweak what he is doing, my suggestion is merely one way to do that. Adjust the charge of H-110 up and/or down to get the best results. Since he has tried a non mag primer now that is one variable to test.

 

[Charlie98]

I like the heavy bullets in the .41, nothing wrong with them. Both my Dan Wesson and the Marlin 1894 love the Cast Performance 250 GC bullet.

Personally, I would back down off the max charge of H110, and keep the magnum primer, and then see where your accuracy goes.

He wants full power hunting loads and AA #7 isn't going to get it for him.

I agree. Personally, I would try something like IMR4227 if H110 isn't giving him the accuracy he's looking for.