.410 as replacement for 12ga

[12Bravo20]

I will repeat what I have said in many threads, here and other forums; the .410 is not a beginner's shotgun, except to introduce the shotgun to kids, shooting at static targets. Think clay pigeons on a berm at 10-15 yards. Other than that, it is an expert's gun for small game at any but very close range. If one grows up shooting it a lot, it makes a good dove, quail, and woodcock gun. It makes Skeet or Sporting Clays a real challenge. Not the best choice for Trap or ducks. 3" .410 is good for close in HD, I consider 2 1/2" iffy, despite the fact I own a SxS derringer in 2 1/2" .410 & .45 LC. It is my 'get off me' at the door gun.
My son has my old .410 H&R, he keeps it for a 'bumping around the woods' gun.

Yes a 410 is an experts gun especially if you started out with a 12 or 20 gauge. For all of us that grew up with a 410 as our only shotgun, we learned really quick to make all of our shots count. I would not discount a person with a 410 that shoots well with it. I have used my 410s to take a lot of different game over the years. The exception is that I never tried to use a 410 for any type of water fowl or deer hunting. I have taken turkeys with my 410s and 410 slugs work well to knock a treed raccoon down.

From the looks of it the .410 might make a very good home defense weapon.

From my personal testing of 3" 410 self defense loads using both my Mossberg Shockwave with a 14" cylinder bore barrel and my Mossberg 500 with a 18.5" cylinder bore barrel, the 5 pellet 000 buckshot shells do the best. Both guns will keep all 5 pellets within an 8 inch circle out to 15 yards and still keep the majority of the pellets in the same size circle at 25 yards. And I still get good penetration at 25 yards.

 

[Cvans]

For all of us that grew up with a 410 as our only shotgun, we learned really quick to make all of our shots count. I would not discount a person with a 410 that shoots well with it.

I have a friend in his 70's that as long as I've known him does his pheasant hunting with a .410 and does very well with it. I'm a firm believer in knowing your gun and it's limitations before taking it to the field.

 

[George P]

I have a friend in his 70's that as long as I've known him does his pheasant hunting with a .410 and does very well with it. I'm a firm believer in knowing your gun and it's limitations before taking it to the field.

That, unfortunately, is the key and one which many folks do not understand or follow.

 

[12Bravo20]

I just wanted to post a few photos of my test results using my 5 pellet 3" 000 buckshot loads and the Winchester PDX1 loads for everyone.

First group is using Winchester PDX1 shells from my Shockwave. 7, 10, and 15 yards


3" 000 buckshot at 7 and 15 yards from my 500 with 18 1/2" cylinder bore barrel


And 3 shots with 3" 000 buckshot at 25 yards from my 500 with 18 1/2" cylinder bore barrel

 

[Cvans]

I just wanted to post a few photos of my test results using my 5 pellet 3" 000 buckshot

Thank you for taking the time to post your results. I think they show without a doubt that the .410 can get the job done. That last group is really impressive.

 

[12Bravo20]

The last group at 25 yards with 3 shots surprised me too. There were a few flyers but the majority of the pellets still staid well within the 8" target. And the pellets all penetrated the thick industrial belt material that is used for the target backing.

 

[tws3b2]

My 1st gun was a 410. That was around 1960, give or take. I've not been without one since. Excellent for small game and could take down a deer if there was a real need and no other options. If you live in a average size home with average rooms it can double as a HD weapon. It can be deadly at 4-5 yards regardless, bird shot, buckshot, slug, 2/34, 3inch. And, they are fun little guns to just shoot.

 

[mnrivrat]

A .410 is not a 12 ga. One can compare the obvious differences but I see your question as being more like "Will the .410 serve OK for what my usage is ?" My opinion is that you can roam the earth with a .410 and make it work for what you do. It has different performance limitations than the 12 ga. which is obvious, but it will do what you need it for ,and perhaps be more fun in some ways. I think the reason you asked your question is that the .410 appeals to you at some level. So go buy one. If you don't like it sell it in a couple years. I bet it won't cost you much to own it.

 

[Sniper66]

Darn it. This thread is making me nostalgic for a 410. The goods news is, I have several boxes of 3" 410 shells in my ammo cabinet just waiting for a new gun to arrive. Fun to shop for one!

 

[George P]

Darn it. This thread is making me nostalgic for a 410. The goods news is, I have several boxes of 3" 410 shells in my ammo cabinet just waiting for a new gun to arrive. Fun to shop for one!

Here's 643 to choose from:
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/shotguns-410-gauge.c849_p1_o6.cfm

 

[Sniper66]

Here's 643 to choose from:
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/shotguns-410-gauge.c849_p1_o6.cfm

I'll put my house on the market and buy that one $125,000. BOOYAH!

 

[earlthegoat2]

410s have a certain appeal. However, they have a plethora of disadvantages both practical and logistical. So many in fact, it is no surprise they only survive as novelties and "fun guns". I dont mean to disparage, but I do not know anyone personally who uses a 410 as a primary shotgun.

High price and scarcity of ammo. Higher price and scarcity of firearms too in fact. Because they are less common, pound for pound a 410 should always cost more and have higher residual value than a 20 or 12 gauge counterpart. Much fewer configurations to choose from too. You will be much more likely to find 410s in a single shot or bolt action before any of the more popular (for 12 and 20 ga) action types like slide action or autoloader. 410 SxS are very scarce and expensive to purchase and O/U are just as. Reloading components like hulls and wads are more scarce and marginally pricier too but one advantage I can think of is that they give larger return faster if you reload.

That is my long winded way of saying that 410s do intrigue me. Enough so in fact that I have pondered this very question myself. All the disadvantages turned me away from it though and I compromised by going pretty all in on 20 gauge. 20 gauge can replace 12 gauge with only giving up a few small things. Namely, ammo selection especially for turkey, duck, and goose. Not many options for buckshot either. However it is a superior sabot slug shooting platform than the 12. If the receivers are scaled for 20 ga then the guns are lighter and handier than 12 ga too.

My BPS 20 is my take anywhere gun. It has been with me for 20 or so years now. I use it for 98% of my shotgun uses. I have a BPS 10 ga for anything else. See how little use I have for 12 gauge. I mainly use that for buckshot hunting hogs and the occasional turkey.

 

[12Bravo20]

And then there are some like me that has used a 410 all of their lives. I have used a 410 successfully on everything from dove to turkey and all other legal small game. Yes you do have to keep in mind the limitations of the 410 when using it for hunting, but it is quite capable of filling the game bag.

And yes 410 ammo has always been more expensive compared to other gauges. I started reloading all of my 410 shells back in the mid 90's. Even with todays prices, it is still way cheaper to reload 410 versus factory ammo. Plus I can tailer my loads such as my 3" 000 buckshot loads for HD/SD use.

I think that we have answered the OP's question and a 410 will fill his needs. We have also proven that a 410 (within its limits) is good for hunting and home defense.

 

[cdahl383]

Maybe go with a 20 gauge and toss a limbsaver recoil pad on the stock?

 

[Pete D.]

r. 410 SxS are very scarce and expensive to purchase and O/U are just as...

ATI markets a little Turkish O/U .410 that works very nicely. About $400....at least that is what I paid for mine a couple of years ago.

 

[HB]

I found the .410 to be inadequate on rabbits. Its ok on squirrels if theres no brush and they are close.

 

[12Bravo20]

I found the .410 to be inadequate on rabbits. Its ok on squirrels if theres no brush and they are close.

What size shot were you using?

I have found that 3" shells loaded with #6 shot to be quite adequate for rabbits, squirrels and even turkeys.

 

[Bull Nutria]

Mr.Mosin,
I recently purchased a SXS Yildiz 410. it is light, a joy to carry and functions well. I squirrel hunted with it once last fall. It does not have an effective range passed about 30yd. many trees are taller than that. so I used a 22 on squirrels. I did use the 410 very effectively on rabbits and shot my limit with 3" #6 reloads. if you have shots at squirrel closer than 30 yards it would be effective!. Very little recoil.
As was mentioned already a 20 ga would be a much more effective gun for squirrels and rabbits.

Bull

 

[eastbank]

i use my 410,s on long eared hoppers, in brier patchs and standing corn fields as the ranges are very close. feet instead of yards very often. and i shoot #4,s in the modified barrel(close) and #6,s in the full barrel(a little further). the ones i get are not full of shot.

 

[George P]

i use my 410,s on long eared hoppers, in brier patchs and standing corn fields as the ranges are very close. feet instead of yards very often. and i shoot #4,s in the modified barrel(close) and #6,s in the full barrel(a little further). the ones i get are not full of shot.

Why do you use the smaller shot in the tighter barrel? Most folks would do it the opposite way around?

 

[mcb]

I use copper plated #7.5 in my 410 for rabbits and squirrels. I use to use the larger shot but found that with the plated #7.5 it was slick and hard enough most of the pellets will pass clean a rabbit or squirrel and pull less hair with them. And since my favorite 410 only has a 2.5 inch chamber I need all the shot I can get. Though eastern cottontails I hunt don't seem to take much killing. I once killed a rabbit with only one pellet of #7.5 shot in the right spot.

 

[eastbank]

as the ranges are not long the #4,s out of the mod barrel has a good killing patterern with out filling them with shot, and the #6,s make for a better(fuller patteren) at the longed ranges with the full barrel. if i had a good supply of 2.5" shells, thats all i would use. i have a .410 3" mec 650, but never set it up as i fell into two flats of of 410 3" shells several years ago pretty cheap. i use the same shot shell combo(#4-#6) with my 20 ga browning BSS sporter.

 

[Antihero]

Even though 5 000 buckshot is nothing to sneeze at, it's significantly less than 9 00 in power.

Even comparing both shooting 000, 8 vs 5 is fairly significant. The real power of shotguns is getting as much shot on to target as possible, if not one 70gr round ball isn't a lot of oomph. Being down 210gr from a 12 gauge is substantial even though 350gr of shot isn't small.

 

[12Bravo20]

At home defense shooting distances it really won't matter if it is 5 pellets or nine pellets of 000 buckshot, they all will hit really close to each other in a very tight group. In fact from my testing using a Mossberg Shockwave with 14.5" barrel and a Mossberg 500 with 18.5" barrel, the pattern of the 3" shells with 5 pellets doesn't really start opening up until you get to 20 or more yards. The barrels on both of my Mossberg are cylinder bore. Here are some targets that I shot with one shot at 15 yards (left) and 7 yards. The wad goes flying off to the side but the pellets stay together quite nicely.



And here is 3 shots at 25 yards.

 

[Leon tP]

Here's my take away after reading all of this. Only looking at it from a HD point of view. 5 - 000 aught buck pellets of .36 caliber weighing 68 grains a piece and launched at 1135 fps... Well that comes to 194 ft-lbs each pellet, multiply that by 5 and you get 970 ft-lbs KE (each round x # of rounds loaded). Of course, 8 pellets from a reduced recoil 12 guage places you around 217 ft-lbs each pellet or 1736 ft-lbs KE total (each round x # of rounds loaded). I also know a few folks who are perfectly comfortable with just having a 38 snub lying around the house, 5 shots of 158 wadcutters (~750 fps, 197 ft-lbs KE each round). My question then becomes, just how much whoop butt do you think you need?
I don't know about everyone else but I wouldn't feel unarmed with a reliable pump shotgun loaded with .410 buck... and I fully realize the 12 gauge is a more capable round (Hammer of Thor so to speak) but if you have disabilities then by all means get a .410 or 38 snub, just as long as you have something you can handle adeptly if the need presents itself.

"And that's all I gots to say about that."