41P Drops:

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rjrivero

rjrivero

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What does it mean?

https://www.atf.gov/file/100896/download

No more CLEO signoff.
24month Loophole/grandfather clause for fingerprints/photos? (Is this a one time exemption or do you have to add to your Trust every 24 months to stay ahead of the "requirement?"

Food for thought.
 
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Okay, after I have scanned the high points of the published ruling, let me be the first to ask a 3 questions.

1. Is there any "Grandfathering" of current Trust members or the NFA items listed on the trust, or 180 days from now am I in violation and subject to arrest for possessing my trust's NFA items if I have not submitted photos, fingerprints and all information of all Trustees and myself?
2. What are the actual costs to each member of my trust for complying? (fingerprinting, filing fees, etc.)
3. How often will trust members be required to submit photos and fingerprints?
 
it is extremely concerning as the Government is mandating the disclosure of confidential tax information. Not to worry, ATF responded to that on page 84. Since it is requiring that YOU disclose the confidential tax information, no law is being broken, because it is YOU that is disclosing YOUR confidential tax information (did I mention the Government is forcing you to do so?). See also page 96, where ATF states that it is legally prohibited from disclosing that same tax information….
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This is interesting. Is there any chance that this point could provide an incentive to move the NFA out of the tax code and in doing so provide the opportunity to rewrite it in a way more favorable for the 2A?
 
Applications that are pending or filed before the rule goes into effect will be grandfathered. The rule applies to TRANSFERS, not people or entities - so if you buy a suppressor tomorrow and then buy a machinegun 8 months from now, you will be grandfathered on the supressor; but have to fill out the new paperwork for the machinegun.

CLEO sign-off is going away completely, for everyone, to be replaced by CLEO notification. Trusts and corporations will have to submit fingerprints and photos for every "responsible person." So in six months, filing as an individual is likely to become much more popular and easy.

Responsible person has been better defined so that the prospect of having to get fingerprints for your unborn child is no longer an issue; but is still vaguely enough defined that we should be worried.

Buried in its response, ATF is contending it has all kind of authority delegated to it by Congress and it CAN do anything it wants to; but it isn't going to just right now, because ATF is cool like that. My guess is that ATF hopes the carrot of CLEO notification will be enough to keep people from challenging those assertions now.
 
Ok, so I was literally meeting with an attorney friday to do an NFA trust.

Am I better off now just doing a Form 4 individual? and with no CLEO sign off, does that mean when I go to a dealer just bring my photo and fingerprints and begin the process?
 
I'd still go the trust route if you'd like to pass items down to other family members. At least that's why I'm doing so, since I don't plan on living forever.
 
Jesse H I'd still go the trust route if you'd like to pass items down to other family members. At least that's why I'm doing so, since I don't plan on living forever.
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NFA firearms transfer tax free on a Form 5 to your beneficiaries.
NFA firearms in a trust remain the property of the trust.
 
from Bartholomew Roberts:
Trusts and corporations will have to submit fingerprints and photos for every "responsible person."
Click to expand...

I realize that I am asking legal advice here, and the answers I get may be worth what I am paying, but:

Assuming I have 5 named Trustees plus myself on my NFA Trust, will we all have to be photographed, fingerprinted and appropriately documented prior to 180 days from now in order to possess any of the NFA items in the trust. Or as long as I do not add (transfer) any new items into the trust, can all trustees and myself still possess the original items after the 180 days?
 
plodder said:
from Bartholomew Roberts:

I realize that I am asking legal advice here, and the answers I get may be worth what I am paying, but:

Assuming I have 5 named Trustees plus myself on my NFA Trust, will we all have to be photographed, fingerprinted and appropriately documented prior to 180 days from now in order to possess any of the NFA items in the trust. Or as long as I do not add (transfer) any new items into the trust, can all trustees and myself still possess the original items after the 180 days?
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Nothing is retroactive, whatever items you already have is all set. If you have a Trust with 5 trustees and 3 NFA items nothing changes. If, after 180 days you add a 4th NFA item, you need fingerprints and pictures for all 5 trustees.

What I'm not sure about yet is if you have no trustees when you get your tax stamp but later add trustees. My guess is they will need to do fingerprints/pictures but maybe not?
 
Big Bad Bob said:
Am I better off doing the Form 4 as an individual?
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Currently, the rules are still the same. This rule takes effect six months from being published in the Federal Register (which hasn't happened yet). So, first question is do you want to wait six months?

After the rule goes into effect, trusts are probably more paperwork since you need to submit the trust plus fingerprints and photos for every "responsible person" (you should talk to your attorney about who might be an "RP" under your specific trust) and CLEO notification. The only advantage a trust will have then is that other trustees can legally possess the NFA item without your direct supervision and certain specific estate planning issues that apply to trusts generally.
 
I'm getting the feeling that my most recent form 1 is going to take a lot longer to clear.
 
Ryanxia said:
What I'm not sure about yet is if you have no trustees when you get your tax stamp but later add trustees
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Good answer to plodder.

ATF specifically states that at this time they are only concerned about who your responsible persons are at the time of transfer. A valid trust requires a trustee, so there would be at least one trustee in order to get a tax stamp. Otherwise, it seems the same logic as plodder's question applies.
 
Arizona_Mike said:
I predict a a lot of 1 gun trusts.

Mike
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Don't you mean one person trusts? As long as you do the paperwork for all "responsible persons" the first time then it would seem the 24 months with no new photos or prints clause would actually encourage filing for as many new stamps as you can afford.
 
What if your trustees are minors? If I create a trust in 2016, post 41P, and add my minor stepchildren as trustees, they will need fingerprints and photos, but how will an individual under age 21 pass an background check?

Does 41P only apply to trusts?

Does an individual Form 1 or Form 4 still require CLEO sign off?

2016 was going to be the year I enter into NFA territory, but have to re-weigh pros and cons of Trust Vs. Individual.
 
Does an individual Form 1 or Form 4 still require CLEO sign off?
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No sign-off, just notification once the new rule takes effect 6+ months from now. As of today nothing has actually changed.
 
41P applies to trusts; but as indicated the replacement of CLEO sign-off with CLEO notification will be for everyone (trusts, corporations, individuals).

As for minor trustees, as a general rule (there may be and probably are exceptions I am not aware of), a minor cannot be a trustee in any trust. The specifics are probably best discussed with the lawyer you choose to draft your trust.
 
Yes I don't believe minors can be trustees. There is such a thing as a child subtrust but I never dug into what that entails.
 
So, if prints must be done by authorities now, can LEOs still refuse to do them, denying both individuals as well as trusts? If so, this is considerably more restrictive than the status quo.

TCB
 
Prints need to be done by someone who can do it competently. That doesn't necessarily mean your CLEO. It can be anyone who has the equipment, and you don't have to tell them WHY you need prints. The only times I have ever been printed have been for employment purposes. One was done by the HR department and the other by the local Sherrif's office. I just walked in with the print cards and said I needed prints and they Calle a deputy who did them for me. He didn't ask why I needed them.
 
barnbwt said:
So, if prints must be done by authorities now, can LEOs still refuse to do them, denying both individuals as well as trusts? If so, this is considerably more restrictive than the status quo.

TCB
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I haven't gotten fingerprinted yet (can only burn em off once lol) does it have to be your local PD that does them? Can it be the next town over? Or the County Sherrifs or State Police? Are there 3rd party companies that the Feds would recognize?
 
I don't the actual language said "authorities". IIRC it just said they needed to be done by someone competent or words to that effect.
 
I'm not sure if I should be happy about not completing the setup of my trust yet or not...
 
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