44 Magnum vs. 45 Colt (Hot-Loading)

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Maj Dad,

Nope, I'm not in the hot-rodding cartridge game, I'm just trying to solve a debate. Can the .45 Colt really ever safely exceed the .44 Magnum in similar bullet weights out of similar guns and barrel lengths?
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Yes it can, but then the .44 still has some room to hotrod it a little until it surpasses the .45.
 
whole argument is nuts. Can you over load the 45 Colt so that it equals a 44 Magnum? Probably can but it's no longer a 45 Colt because the 45 Colt has a maximum safe operating pressure considerably less than a 44 Magnum. The next guy's going to want to know if you could over load the 44 Magnum to equal the 455 Casull? Probably could do that too but the pressure levels would be insane and I wouldn't want to hold the thing in my hand when it went off. I don't understand why we don't accept these things for what they are and, if we need something bigger and more powerful, get that too.
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There is an advantage for me in "hotrodding" my 45 colt. To me shooting is fun, that is why I do it. I enjoy the expeirence of shooting both mild cowboy loads and hard hitting ruger only load out of the same gun and using the same reloading components. It is nice to produce a wide spectrum of loads without having to buy more dies and another gun.

You can safely load these in my ruger, so I feel that, as long as I follow published data that is already out there, it is not more dangerous than loading any other caliber.

Another advantage and the main reason I wen with the 45 over the 44 is that I can shoot them out of my fathers 454 casull.

Of course you can load mild to wild with the 44 using 44 special, but using your argument if you want a 44 special load buy a 44 special gun .... Not a magnum
 
Ok, I edited the post and took out one of the words "nonsense". The other one made too much sense.

Lost Sheep
 
These loads are pretty hard to shoot for most people in revolver mode:what:

Not to change the subject, but, why I shoot a DE in 50AE and 440 Corbon:D

Regards
 
Ruger needs to introduce a 5 shot beefed up cylinder Blackhawk/Superblackhawk, in .454 Casull, then you could hot rod the .45 Colt all you wanted!
 
Or better yet, a five-shot .480! A big honkin' 425gr at 1150fps will do more than any .44 or .45 ever could.
 
I have 2 Redhawks 44 mag and 45 Colt and a Super Redhawk in 454. I would be willing to fire a 45 Colt round loaded to 50-55,000 psi out of a SRH but I'm not brave enough to fire said round out of a Redhawk. I value my life too highly. Oh BTW the last 45 Colt Rugers I bought needed to have the chamber throats reamed out to .453 as they were .450.
 
CraigC said:
Or better yet, a five-shot .480! A big honkin' 425gr at 1150fps will do more than any .44 or .45 ever could.
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I am SO with you there, CraigC. I have been wanting to find a 5-shot 480 Ruger SRH with a 7.5" barrel. Alas, I don't believe Ruger ever made any.

highlander 5 said:
I have 2 Redhawks 44 mag and 45 Colt and a Super Redhawk in 454. I would be willing to fire a 45 Colt round loaded to 50-55,000 psi out of a SRH but I'm not brave enough to fire said round out of a Redhawk. I value my life too highly.
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I know of one fellow who took a 454 Casull cylinder from a Super Redhawk and fitted it into his Redhawk frame. But I am with you on the pressure. I would not fire a 45 Colt at 50,000 psi out of a Redhawk OR a Super Redhawk. The SRH 454 Casull cylinder is made of a different alloy than the 45 Colt-chambered cylinder.

Lost Sheep
 
Far as I know, the only five-shot SRH's that made it out were Alaskans and only about twenty guns shipped.

John Taffin and Brian Pearce have thoroughly tested the .45 Redhawks to 50,000psi and the load data has been in print several times. That's good enough for me!
 
highlander 5 said:
Oh BTW the last 45 Colt Rugers I bought needed to have the chamber throats reamed out to .453 as they were .450.
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When did you buy them? My 4.2" Redhawk is just fine but I bought it about three years ago. Three throats measured 0.4525" and three measured 0.4526", and those are averages of three bullets per chamber. The bore measured 0.4517" based on the average of three bullets.

I'm sticking with .45 Colt loads around 32,000 CUP, or maybe a little over, for my Marlin, two Blackhawks and a Redhawk. I save the 50,000+ psi stuff for the Super Redhawk Alaskan and pistol cases with small rifle primer pockets.
 
CraigC said:
Where that big .45 case really begins to shine is when loaded to 50-55,000psi for Redhawks, FA's and custom five-shot guns.
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I've never read this before and always thought Redhawks were in the same league as Blackhawks. I thought the Redhawk might be a little sronger, but not that much.
 
John Taffin and Brian Pearce have thoroughly tested the .45 Redhawks to 50,000psi and the load data has been in print several times. That's good enough for me!
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Like I said, Taffin has written of this numerous times in his magazine articles and books. Brian Pearce has written of this in Handloader magazine.
 
The .480 was scrapped right as they switched to a five-shot configuration. Dumb. The .480 is a wonderful cartridge that fully eclipses both the .44Mag and .45Colt but unfortunately, was very poorly marketed and not fully utilized. Like the .327. Neither was given a fair chance.
 
Finally dug out Pearce's .44Mag +P data. He lists a 300gr Speer at 1400fps, 310gr Oregon Trail True Shot WFN at 1495fps, a 320gr CPBC WLN at 1427fps and a 340gr Rimrock WLN at 1405fps. These are Redhawk only.

Whereas a 330gr and 355gr from Beartooth can be pushed to 1350fps and 1250fps respectively at standard pressures. Not too far behind.
 
a 340gr Rimrock WLN at 1405fps.
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Yikes! That is right up there with the Buffalo Bore 44 Magnum +P+, which is a 340-grain bullet going 1478 fps from a 7.5" Redhawk!

If only I had a re-barrelled 1:20 twist 1894. Or, a better tolerance for pain when shooting my 4" Redhawk.

Methinks I will be able to get away with 300-grain hard cast bullets moving at 1200 fps from my Super Blackhawk, whenever I am kicking around in the coastal Oregon timber.

But, after following this thread and a few others, I can't shake the slight desire for a 5.5" .45 Blackhawk. There's just something enticing about that .452" bullet...
 
Oh yeah, I would love a 1-20" twist levergun to play with those bullets in. Don't think I'd have any real need for them in the foreseeable future but it would be fun to see what they will do. Methinks your 300gr at 1200fps will handle anything you're likely to encounter.
 
atlanticfire said:
I've loaded both with H110 before using 300gr bullets and got about a 200 FPS difference in favor of the 44 mag. Not sure how that works out with math in pound feet.

Edit: I dont have my load data with me but I thing it was 22gr. I'll have to edit again when I get to my books.
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There are more factors than 1) energy 2) momentum and sectional density (long range ballistics). There is frontal area.

An unexpanded 45 Colt, at .454 diameter presents 12% more frontal area than an unexpanded 44 Magnum slug at .429 diameter.

Many, many factors are in the mix. We can debate theory all we want, but the proof of the pudding is in the game taken. I don't think the debate will ever be settled, but there IS value in discussing the factors.

Lost Sheep

Lost Sheep
 
Can the .45 Colt really ever safely exceed the .44 Magnum in similar bullet weights out of similar guns and barrel lengths?
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The short answer is: Not safely

I just bought my first .45LC and was wondering if I get .45LC loads to equal those of the .44mag. Upon checking Ken Waters' Pet Loads, my question was answered. In the chapter on the .45LC, Waters said that the reason why not was because of the difference in case construction. The .45LC is an old, thin-walled case meant to load low-pressure black powder, while the .44mag case is more modern and has thicker walls that are better able to withstand the higher pressures generated by full-power loads.
 
That is not relevant with cases today, if it was then. It will surely start an argument though. ;)
 
I read the Seyfried article and still think that Waters was right.

It would be foolish to try full-power loads w/ a Colt or new Ruger Vaquero. With the older Vaquero that I have, it can be safely loaded to full-power, but not to .44mag levels. If you have a Freedom Arms or a Ruger w/ a 5-shot cylinder and strong brass, you might safely try .44mag level loads.

When I get home, I'll weigh a piece of .44mag and .45LC brass to see how much heavier one is over the other. I am wondering if .45LC is any sturdier than those of original design or not.
 
Bluntly, Ken Waters is wrong. The .45Colt is PROVEN to be plenty strong for loads up to 55,000psi. Sorry Kevin but you're looking for validation in the wrong place. Ken Waters is a respectable figure but Seyfried's position comes from experience, not theory. In this case, Seyfried is more credible.

The last word on the subject (except that .44Mag reality has changed since it was written).
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

Let us also not forget that the .454 was developed in .45Colt brass. Dick Casull pushed 260's to 2000fps.
 
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