44 May Be Special. But it Ain't for Defense!

[Kleanbore]

If or when the matter of "hand loaded ammunition" comes up in trial, why wouldn't the defense attorney simply state that his client used a .44 Special rather than the "brutal" .44 Magnum?

The use of hand loaded ammunition may come up in a trial, but that's unlikely--and in my opinion, very unlikely.

Had I shot someone in a defensive incident in which the facts were contradictory or sparse, I would prefer to have used somehing other than a .44 magnum with full loads, but to be frank, there are a number of reasons why I would not choose to carry one for personal defense except in some wilderness areas, and courtroom considerations are low on the list.

 

[Dave T]

I'm a retired deputy sheriff and for my last 6 years I was the chief firearms instructor for a department with 400 armed personal. After retiring I started my own firearms training business and for 10 years qualified people for Arizona's concealed carry permits and I also taught a class in handgun self defense.

When the question of hand loads came up (and it almost always did) my answer to my students was, if the shooting is justified under Arizona law using hand loads won't be a problem. If the shooting is not justified under law, using hand loads will be one of the least of your problems.

Dave

 

[USBP379]

I'm a retired deputy sheriff and for my last 6 years I was the chief firearms instructor for a department with 400 armed personal. After retiring I started my own firearms training business and for 10 years qualified people for Arizona's concealed carry permits and I also taught a class in handgun self defense.

When the question of hand loads came up (and it almost always did) my answer to my students was, if the shooting is justified under Arizona law using hand loads won't be a problem. If the shooting is not justified under law, using hand loads will be one of the least of your problems.

Dave

This is quite likely true and it is my own fault for getting the thread drifted off course.

 

[Kleanbore]

,,,if the shooting is justified under Arizona law using hand loads won't be a problem

That's true in all states, to the extent that a court's decision is favorable to the defendant.

And in all states except one, it is true as long as a jury decides that the evidence made known to the jury does not show beyond a reasonable doubt that the shooting was not justified.

 

[Jack B.]

Seems like there are a lot of lawyers in THR.

 

[USBP379]

Indeed. And one may handload this round and use it in a revolver of suitable strength. I wonder, though, at what point would this level of performance begin to erode the thinner forcing cone on the nifty S&W 696... Do I aim for 900 fps instead?...

I'd bet you can get a 200gr JHP to 900fps easily from your 696 without dramatically exceeding published loads. As an example; Barnes lists a load of 8.0gr of Ramshot Silhouette at 959fps for their 200gr XPB. That's from a 5.64" barrel.

 

[CraigC]

A 200gr at 1000fps shouldn't be a problem at standard pressures.

 

[USBP379]

A 200gr at 1000fps shouldn't be a problem at standard pressures.

It'll be close. Most published data shows right at a Grand but from a longer barrel.

 

[USBP379]

Here is the Brian Pearce data. Good info especially the Category Two loads.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...ggdMAA&usg=AFQjCNGiljEuTZ-hr_WDRLDO-zO9EPALuA

 

[200Apples]

Thanks, I was going to look for my link to that Pearce data, but then my wife threw a loop over me and pulled me away... to the dang mall. Yikes.

 

[USBP379]

Thanks, I was going to look for my link to that Pearce data, but then my wife threw a loop over me and pulled me away... to the dang mall. Yikes.

So back on track here.

I think something near Pearce's Cat 2 data would be a great SAAMI modern pressure spec. It wouldn't hurt anything chambered for 44 Mag and probably wouldn't really beat up old guns that badly. At least not if someone keeps a level of common sense.

A new pressure spec would also allow bullet and powder companies to publish new data as new powders become available. As it stands now the latest data for the latest powders show nothing that can't be had from Unique or Blue Dot.

 

[200Apples]

Edited.

Thanks again! for the link.

 

[Slamfire]

The 44 Special was a lengthened smokeless version of the 44 Russian. From velocity data that I recall, I would say there was very little velocity difference between the two, even though the 44 Russian is a black powder cartridge.


This is a limitation of factory 44 Special rounds: they are pushing bullets to 19th century standards. If more velocity, more expansion, and more penetration is required, pressures have to be raised. You can't do that in some revolvers, I am thinking of the Charter Arms Bulldog. This pocket pistol is very light, thin cylinder walls, and actually has all the recoil I can enjoy with factory rounds! Pocket pistols are intentionally light, and that has its own limitations and advantages.





However, in my N frame S&W's, I regularly bump the charge up, but not too high. A 240 lead bullet going 850 to 900 fps has all the bang I want all the way out to 50 yards, which is as far as I am shooting an iron sighted handgun. At those velocities the 44 Special ought to be superior self defense round. Not too much recoil, not too much noise, but still a powerful round.






With this Ruger Lipsey in 44 Special, this tank will push 240's at 1000 fps and because of its weight, is not too bad. It will really smack my 25 yard and 50 yard gong target.

 

[ThomasT]

I'm a retired deputy sheriff and for my last 6 years I was the chief firearms instructor for a department with 400 armed personal. After retiring I started my own firearms training business and for 10 years qualified people for Arizona's concealed carry permits and I also taught a class in handgun self defense.

When the question of hand loads came up (and it almost always did) my answer to my students was, if the shooting is justified under Arizona law using hand loads won't be a problem. If the shooting is not justified under law, using hand loads will be one of the least of your problems.

According to Kleanbore in post #46 you are "hardly a credible source".

When I mention my uncle was for years a homicide detective and then lead investigator in the DA's office and wrote the reports and recommendations to prosecute or not he was brushed off as

Hardly credible sources, I'm afraid.

It makes me wonder what rates as a "credible source"?

 

[Kleanbore]

It makes me wonder what rates as a "credible source"?

For purposes of the question at hand, it would be someone with knowledge of the rules of evidence as they apply to expert witnesses and scientific forensic trace evidence and of how gunshot burn and residue patterns can be used to assess shooting distances.

I would guess that most really experienced homicide detectives understand the latter, but I know that very few detectives and few attorneys have much knowledge of the former. It is a rather specialized field of knowledge, and it requires quite a lot of study.

More importantly, however, a statement to the effect that something "shouldn't be a problem as long as the shooting was justified" indicates a serious lack of understanding of the legal process. The purpose of the evidence and the testimony is to help the tire's of fact decide whether the shooing was justified. And if what should have been important to them cannot be made known to them because it cannot be properly verified, their ability do that will be impaired.

 

[Walkalong]

So back on track here.

Finally.

I'll take the .44 Spl and factory ammo for self defense any day. I don't understand why anyone would find it inadequate with good ammo. But that's just me.

 

[USBP379]

I'll take the .44 Spl and factory ammo for self defense any day. I don't understand why anyone would find it inadequate with good ammo.

I don't think anyone's said the 44 Special is inadequate with good ammo. The good ammo part is the debate. Look at the SIG 200gr as an example. It has such a low muzzle velocity that the only thing allowing it to penetrate is its mass. I doubt it would do too well against bone or intermediate barrier. On the other hand this ammo might be quite useful to someone who lives in a mobile home park who has concerns about over-penetration.

 

[Kleanbore]

'll take the .44 Spl and factory ammo for self defense any day. I don't understand why anyone would find it inadequate with good ammo. But that's just me.

No, it's not just you.

 

[USBP379]

Based on the ammo tested, I would recommend the Speer Gold Dot or the Hornady Critical Defense for self defense. Either appears to be a good choice with the slight nod to the Gold Dot based on its deeper penetration. The Hornady XTP would be a good choice for field load. Hiking and fishing in back country or as a backup to a hunting rifle.

 

[Riomouse911]

Gun tests did a velocity/accuracy/expansion story on the .44 Spl a bit back, using a 4" S&W and a Charter Bulldog. The old girl may be dated, but she does pack a punch with modern loads.

 

[Walkalong]

I don't think anyone's said the 44 Special is inadequate with good ammo. The good ammo part is the debate.

That's how I took your opening post.

44 May Be Special. But it Ain't for Defense At least not with some factory ammo...

But when I just went back and reread it, I saw where I missed the "some" part.

Yes, some of it isn't very "special". But that can be said with other calibers as well.

 

[Crowman]

I prefer hard cast bullets over JHP / JSP bullets in big bore revolvers. Don't need to expand...they're already there. Big hole...deep hole.

I load my Bulldog 44 with Buffalo Bore's hard cast 200 grain WC "Manstoppers" (a higher velocity, low pressure load developed by BB specifically for the Charter Bulldog) and "call'er did!"

My S&W model 69 short barrel Combat Magnum gets the heavy Buffalo Bore 250 grain hard cast SWC GC 44 Specials. The long barrel 69 gets the full house magnums...

 

[the Black Spot]

Lawman "Jelly" Bryce didnt have a problem using the 44 special

 

[eastbank]

with my first S&W 624 with a 6" barrel i shot thru a doe standing faceing away from me at 40 yards, hitting her right next to the bung hole and going thru her and comming out the right front of her chest with a hard cast 240gr bullet and a healthy dose of 2400 powder. that load may be a little much for self defence, but a very good hunting load. i sold that 624 and regetted it over the years and when i found another 624 i bought it, a 624 with a 4" barrel thats easier to carry for self defence. if a .45 auto 230gr bullet at 850 fps is touted as a very good defence load, why wouldn,t a 240 gr .44 bullet at 850 fps be as good? eastbank.

 

[Poohgyrr]

Lawman "Jelly" Bryce didnt have a problem using the 44 special

And Jim Cirillo seemed to have success loading wadcutters in his 38Specials.... We have more choices today than 30 years ago. The 44Special still works.

These days, part of the issue may be a general lack of training and experience with revolvers. Pistols are pistols: single shot pistol, derringer pistol, autoloading pistol, or revolver pistol: they all have advantages and disadvantages. I don't want to be shot with any of them.