.44 special in .44 mag...

[mannyCA]

just curious if anyone shoots .44 special at a little higher load in a .44 mag. I remember reading an article somewhere that said Elmer Keith used to shoot .44 special at higher pressures than recommended today.
Specifically I load a 240gr LSWC w/o a GC with 15grs. of 2400 and it shoots excellent out of my .44 mag blackhawk 7.5" barrrel.
Wanted to get some thoughts on the subject.

 

[Ol` Joe]

I did at one time shoot 44 spcl in my M29 with fairly heavy loads of 2400. This was some time ago and I don`t recall the exact load used, but I do remember I loaded with LSWC bullets and they made a mess in the front of the chambers if I shot lots before cleaning. They also didn`t do anything I couldn`t do with a lighter 44 mag load.
I quit and went to loading magnum brass only to reduce the chance of overloading a 44 scpl case by accident, and reduce inventory.

 

[Walkalong]

I don't, and I think it is a bad idea to load .44 Specials hot. If they get into a weak .44 Spl it could be bad news. If I want to step up from .44 Spl, I load .44 mag brass from just above .44 Spl levels and up.

Welcome to THR

 

[Slamfire]

I don't, and I think it is a bad idea to load .44 Specials hot. If they get into a weak .44 Spl it could be bad news. If I want to step up from .44 Spl, I load .44 mag brass from just above .44 Spl levels and up.

I totally agree with that.

I did at one time shoot 44 spcl in my M29 with fairly heavy loads of 2400. This was some time ago and I don`t recall the exact load used, but I do remember I loaded with LSWC bullets and they made a mess in the front of the chambers if I shot lots before cleaning. They also didn`t do anything I couldn`t do with a lighter 44 mag load.

I had this same problem with 38's in a 357. It was very difficult to remove the lead ring.

So, for my 44 Magnum, I loaded a 240 LSWC with 8.5 grains Unique in 44 Magnum brass. In my 5" revolver that clocked right at 1000 fps. This load was accurate and powerful.

 

[hydraulicman]

The name is Elmer keith . I just finished reading his book Sixguns by Keith

The .44 special is not loaded to it's potential for the same reason as the 45-70 . There are too many older guns out there that cant handle a modern load.

if you do some searches i'm sure you can find loads of 2400 with the 250 grain keith bullet.

 

[MovedWest]

I've done quite a bit of testing with what you're wanting to do. The 44spl cases can handle the pressure if the gun's chamber will, but you end up with a more accurate round if you load the hotter rounds in magnum brass.

Special brass should be used for 44spl loads, magnum brass for 44mag (or hotter then 44spl) loads. It's a better practice and produces a better round. Considering the price difference and availability of magnum brass, load the hot stuff in magnums.

FWIW, Ken Waters (author of Pet Loads) lists 14.5gr of 2400 with a Speer 240gr JHP and a CCI 350 LPM primer as an accurate load in the 44spl. Velocity of that round is recorded @ 1022fps.

My 2 cents,
-MW

 

[James Thomson]

I shoot both 44 Mag and 44 Special in my S&W 629 but I shoot 44 special because they have less recoil. Anymore, I'm phasing out 44 special and just shooting light 44 Mag loads instead. If I want powerhouse loads, I load them in a 44 mag casing.

 

[zxcvbob]

Just use .45 Colt or .44-40 load data (not "Ruger only" data!) in .44 Magnum brass, using 240 grain cast bullets (no gas checks necessary.) It should be a nice step up from .44 Special, and no problem with short cases.

 

[rcmodel]

The old "Skeeter Skelton load" of 7.5 Unique over a 240 Keith SWC bullet is all the power you need for at least 90% of all American shooting or hunting.

It is a pleasant load to shoot, and will shoot clear through a deer.

It will give between 900 - 1,000 FPS depending on barrel length.
Pressure is above SAAMI standard, but well below what any modern S&W or Colt will handle safely, and for a very long time.

It is my favorite all-time load in my 5" 1950 Target .44 Spl. S&W.

rc

 

[ljnowell]

just when I start thinking that I am the only person in the world who still appreciates skeeter, someone makes a post like the one above. Gotta love Dobe stories too.

 

[.38 Special]

I make a great deal of use of the Skeeter load. With Elmer's Lyman #429421 bullet cast from wheelweights I get great accuracy and adequate punch for anything I'm likely to need a handgun for. And the load is perfectly safe in just about any .44 Special made, thought I'd limit it's use in small, turn of the century guns.

Keith's heavy load was 17.5 grains of 2400 with the same bullet. This grossly exceeds anything listed in the manuals and is probably unsafe in many guns. But the Speer lab supposedly tested this load and found that it generated 27,000 PSI, which is quite a bit less than the typical .44 Magnum load, so there's good reason to believe the .44 Special Keith load would be perfectly safe in a Magnum. And it follows, of course, that the OP's load of 15 grains would be fine as well.

As for the danger of dropping such a load into a lightweight .44 Special and turning it into confetti, that's a reasonable concern, IMO. But those of us who have been turbocharging the .45 Colt know that there are ways of preventing such problems, like using only certain brass for the hot loads (my "safe" loads are always in nickeled cases, and my "hot" loads are exclusively in Federal or Starline brass) or only certain bullets for the hot loads (my hot Colts use LBT style bullets exclusively; everything else gets SWCs or LRN).

Now, I have to admit that I don't quite see the point in the Keith load anymore, unless one is trying to get Magnum results from an N frame Special. The .44 Magnum works so well at higher velocities and pressures that it's hard for me to understand why anyone would bother with the Keith load, nostaligia perhaps excepted.

 

[mannyCA]

Excellent information, thanks for the input. Was looking for a load that would scare off any cats or bears I might find in the backcountry, and that was the primary reason for my question, but looking at the average psi generated for the .44 mag at 36,000 and the starting grains for 2400 coming in a 19 for the 240 LSWC I feel pretty confident that 15 gr. of the same powder is safe out of the .44 rem mag pistol. I will chrony my results and upload if anyone is interested.
manny

 

[Sam1911]

I've experimented quite a bit with what you're doing and had good results.

I don't own a .44 Spc. revolver so I don't worry about mixing up hot and mild loads in the wrong gun.

My favorite HOT load is Herco (can't remember the weight...12 gr. maybe?) under a 200 gr. Hornady XTP in a .44 Spc. case. The charge fills the case nicely and the results were very good. 1250 fps. with quite low extreme spreads and standard deviation, as reported by my chrono. Extraction was easy, and no other pressure signs.

Obviously, this is a (medium) .44 Mag load in a .44 Spc. case, and not to be fired in a Charter Arms Bulldog or whatever. Sure isn't hurting my 629 any.

There are few really important reasons to do this, but if you're curious -- and careful, it does work just fine.

-Sam

 

[Ol` Joe]

Was looking for a load that would scare off any cats or bears I might find in the backcountry, and that was the primary reason for my question

Full house loads will scare animals just as well as light ones, maybe better. They also work much better then plinkers on animals that refuse to scare.........just a thought.

 

[MovedWest]

Quote:
Was looking for a load that would scare off any cats or bears I might find in the backcountry, and that was the primary reason for my question

Full house loads will scare animals just as well as light ones, maybe better. They also work much better then plinkers on animals that refuse to scare.........just a thought.

This goes for just about anything with two or four legs. Even if your aim is off, a full house round built on 2400 (20-21gr of 2400 under a 240gr JHP) will shake the ground and light up the night. If six rounds of that doesn't scare off a threat, you'd better hope you can outrun it. But don't load that in a 44spl cartridge.

-MW

 

[dubious]

RCModel and others... what Keith bullet do you recommend? Also, on a side note, what do you think about Keith bullets in a 1911...

 

[swoter]

My favorite load in my Blackhawk 44 mag is 8 grains Unique with a cast roundnose bullet that averages 250 grains. I use 44 mag cases.

 

[rcmodel]

Other then some custom mold makers, Lyman 429421, or RCBS 44-250-KT are the only Keith style bullets in .44 Caliber you can still get molds for.
Lyman used to make the same bullet mold in HP but it is gone now.

what do you think about Keith bullets in a 1911...

Not aware of a Keith style mold in .45 ACP. There are some similiar SWC 200 grain molds for .45 ACP that work great in most guns.

The Lyman 452424 255 gr is a little long and heavy for the .45 ACP but can be used.
IMO: You can't get enough velocity with the limited case capacity though.

rc