45/70 ammo
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Reeferman
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Any 45/70 commercial loads that I’ve seen always say safe to use in all rifles or it doesn’t. Is the trapdoor safe to shoot? Many are going to disagree or agree with the statement that shooting jacketed bullets in a trapdoor is not good for the barrel.
The only few smokeless loads I shoot in my trapdoor are lead bullets with 27 grains of H4198 otherwise it’s all blackpowder with lead bullets.
Sorry if that doesn’t help.
The only few smokeless loads I shoot in my trapdoor are lead bullets with 27 grains of H4198 otherwise it’s all blackpowder with lead bullets.
Sorry if that doesn’t help.
.455_Hunter
Member
Not a good choice for the Trapdoor.
Will it blow-up? Probably not, assuming the gun is in good shape. The newest original .45-70 Trapdoors are almost 130 years old with some approaching 150 years old.
Will it strain the action? Yes- much hotter than the original intended ammo.
Will it wear the barrel? Yes- Soft iron barrels don't like fast, jacketed loads.
I suggest hunting for some 405 gr cast lead "cowboy" rated loads from Blackhills or HSM if you can't load your own.
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No, do not do that. You should look at "cowboy" level loads as from HMS and Blackhills. These replicate the ammo of the rifle's time.
Obturation
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I've got to say, not safe.
Federal lists it at 1850 fps, looking at load data doesn't look like a 300 grain gets that velocity in any trapdoor loading. Federal says intended for lever actions.
Federal lists it at 1850 fps, looking at load data doesn't look like a 300 grain gets that velocity in any trapdoor loading. Federal says intended for lever actions.
Came to say this. I really stand behind Blackhills ammo back when I had a 45/70 Govt.
I think you are making an association that is not safe. The "Government" in .45-70 Government is the cartridge nomenclature and not a differentiation for standard, magnum or safe for all rifles. Buffalo Bore "Government" magnum loads are not safe in a Trapdoor rifle nor are Remington 405 grain jacketed 1,650 load vs their safe for all rifles load with the same projectile at 1,300 FPS. Frankly, I would not use a jacketed round, safe for all rifles, or not in an old trapdoor rifle. I would pick either the HCLFN round from HMS or Black Hills or roll my own.
Example, the HMS Bear Load .45-70 Government is NOT safe in a trapdoor rifle.
.455_Hunter
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The only jacketed .45-70 I have shot in any of my Trapdoors was one round of the traditional Remington 405 gr JSP loading. I fired it out of the first Trapdoor is purchased in 1998 just to see that it worked, and before I could get any more appropriate lead ammo.
No huge deal. My boss has a trapdoor and he thinks the same thing concerning the "Government". I have tried to steer him but he thinks he can use anything that says "Government" on the box. He might get a surprise eventually. The HMS Bear Ammo, while not as strong as the BB or Garret, it is still pretty stout. I was shooting my 1895 Guide Gun with the HMS Bear and he grabbed a couple to try in his trapdoor, uh, no, just no Mr. Boss, gimme those back
. But it says Government on it he complains to me! Then I handed him some HMS Cowboy, there you go boss, try these, lol.
.455_Hunter
Member
Given the number of Trapdoors out there, sacrificing one on YouTube in the name of science and public safety would be interesting. Just start working up the factory loads until something gives way.
Hello Ian and Karl?
Hello Ian and Karl?
I think 24,000 is pushing it. The issue with the jacketed bullets vs a lead bullet is that more pressure is required to push the bullet through the barrel. I am not saying that exactly right as I just woke up and not drank my coffee yet. Not wear so much on the barrel but the high pressures vs lead to move the bullet. Maybe better said, for a given velocity down a given barrel, more pressure is required for a jacketed bullet than lead.
And I have only fired a trapdoor a few times, I am not an expert on them or ballistics. "Marlin" loads run up to 40,000 psi approximate and "Ruger" loads higher yet. I do not have a Ruger either so have not studied it. I think SAAMI pressure for .45-70 is 28,000. Do you really want to push an antique to the SAAMI limit?
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Varminterror
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I absolutely hate threads like this. A bunch of folks make the same poor assumption, and bad advice is pushed out into the cyberverse forever.
SAAMI standard specification for 45-70 is 28,000psi, which was established around the rounds designed for the Trapdoor. Federal claims the Hammer Down 45-70 ammo is SAAMI compliant (I called to confirm for myself this morning), and equally Federal does NOT offer any warning common to +p type ammunition to state which rifles are compatible or which are not. It’s a SAAMI compliant 28,000psi load. If you don’t believe your individual trapdoor is in appropriate condition for standard pressure loads, you might ask yourself if you should be shooting it at all.
This speculation that canister powder reloading data pressure claims for a jacketed bullet applies for a factory loaded cartridge using what could be non-canister powder under a plated bullet simply don’t make sense. Hornady (at 25k), Lee, and Hodgdon manuals all put 300grn bullets over 1900fps, some powders over 2000fps, Swift puts a 350 over 1830 in their “trapdoor” load data. Speed puts a 400grn bullet at 1799fps in their Trapdoor section. Hornady states their Leverevolution 325grn FTX load at 2050fps is SAAMI compliant, such under the 28,000psi standard established for Trapdoors.
It’s your right to drive 55mph on the interstate if you so desire, but don’t mislead folks to say the speed limit isn’t actually 75mph.
Speer 13
Hodgdon 2016
Swift 2
Lee 2
Hornady X
SAAMI standard specification for 45-70 is 28,000psi, which was established around the rounds designed for the Trapdoor. Federal claims the Hammer Down 45-70 ammo is SAAMI compliant (I called to confirm for myself this morning), and equally Federal does NOT offer any warning common to +p type ammunition to state which rifles are compatible or which are not. It’s a SAAMI compliant 28,000psi load. If you don’t believe your individual trapdoor is in appropriate condition for standard pressure loads, you might ask yourself if you should be shooting it at all.
This speculation that canister powder reloading data pressure claims for a jacketed bullet applies for a factory loaded cartridge using what could be non-canister powder under a plated bullet simply don’t make sense. Hornady (at 25k), Lee, and Hodgdon manuals all put 300grn bullets over 1900fps, some powders over 2000fps, Swift puts a 350 over 1830 in their “trapdoor” load data. Speed puts a 400grn bullet at 1799fps in their Trapdoor section. Hornady states their Leverevolution 325grn FTX load at 2050fps is SAAMI compliant, such under the 28,000psi standard established for Trapdoors.
It’s your right to drive 55mph on the interstate if you so desire, but don’t mislead folks to say the speed limit isn’t actually 75mph.
Speer 13
Hodgdon 2016
Swift 2
Lee 2
Hornady X
Nonetheless in 1873 they did not have smokeless powder, modern metallurgy and jacketed bullets were not commonly in use and to top it all the rifle is over 100 years old and who knows what has been done to it in all those intervening years. If it were brand spanking new or has a KNOWN history then I think I did say 28,000 SAAMI level as top, if not clearly, but I will stay with 24,000 as pushing it with an antique rifle of possible unknown history as my opinion.
I guess I question the wisdom of using full pressure (up to 28,000) modern loads, SAAMI or not, which did not exist in the era of the antique rifle in question is appropriate for again, an antique of over 100 years old and then some. It is not my face that will get exploded. I also stated I was not an expert on the rifle or it's capabilities.
The one box of the Remington higher velocity jacketed 405 grain (1650 FPS) that I was able to obtain before Remington went TU does not say safe for all rifles vs the more common "safe for all rifles" Remington jacketed 405 grain (1,300 FPS). Nor does the Hammer Down say safe for all rifles though all three are SAAMI compliant. Maybe they too think erring on the side of caution to be wise or perhaps they are just lawyer weenies.
Does either Federal or Remington recommend their hotter SAAMI ammunition as "safe for all rifles" or safe for an antique trapdoor?
I guess I question the wisdom of using full pressure (up to 28,000) modern loads, SAAMI or not, which did not exist in the era of the antique rifle in question is appropriate for again, an antique of over 100 years old and then some. It is not my face that will get exploded. I also stated I was not an expert on the rifle or it's capabilities
.The one box of the Remington higher velocity jacketed 405 grain (1650 FPS) that I was able to obtain before Remington went TU does not say safe for all rifles vs the more common "safe for all rifles" Remington jacketed 405 grain (1,300 FPS). Nor does the Hammer Down say safe for all rifles though all three are SAAMI compliant. Maybe they too think erring on the side of caution to be wise or perhaps they are just lawyer weenies
. Does either Federal or Remington recommend their hotter SAAMI ammunition as "safe for all rifles" or safe for an antique trapdoor?
highlander 5
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I've never owned a trapdoor but considering the age of the rifle low pressure lead bullet loads are your friend.
Ugly Sauce
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I would not shoot smokeless powder in either of my Springfields, even though one can get away with it. A smokeless and a black powder load can produce the same pressure, but the pressure curves are "different". Perhaps the ammo makers aren't real concerned about fans of the Trapdoor shooting their ammo. Most of us who shoot or own Trapdoors have our own opinions, are experienced and reload, and don't just walk into Cabella's and buy a box of the latest fad ammo with little red T*Ts on them designed for the Guide-Gun crowd to shoot in some old Model 1873 we picked up at a garage sale on the way home from work.
And if the box says: "safe in all guns", and the gun blows up...well, something must have been wrong with the gun, because the box said it was safe. !!! The gun must not have been in "good" condition.
Having said that, I think the concern, or what used to be the concern with jacketed bullets was barrel wear. I shoot the Speer 400 grain JSP in my Springfield rifle, over 80 grains of 3f Swiss. But, I don't shoot very many rounds per year, so it's not an issue. My carbine I shoot more often and stick to a lead bullet and 70 grains of 3f Swiss.
And if the box says: "safe in all guns", and the gun blows up...well, something must have been wrong with the gun, because the box said it was safe. !!! The gun must not have been in "good" condition.
Having said that, I think the concern, or what used to be the concern with jacketed bullets was barrel wear. I shoot the Speer 400 grain JSP in my Springfield rifle, over 80 grains of 3f Swiss. But, I don't shoot very many rounds per year, so it's not an issue. My carbine I shoot more often and stick to a lead bullet and 70 grains of 3f Swiss.
Ugly Sauce
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Great post, but even when the speed limit is 75mph, I don't drive my 1948 Dodge much over 60mph. Will it go 75mph? Yes...but it's not good for it.
Can't wrap my head around why a copper jacket, which is much softer than steel, is bad for the barrel of a trap door, can someone explain that?[/QUOTE]
It is VERY soft "steel". Like in the ballpark of almost still iron kinda steel. Itll work ok for a while but you're slowly ironing out the rifling with each shot.
And the modern .458 45-70 bullet dimensions generally wont fit well in a trapdoor. Whose bore diameter is more like a general wish for something 45ish.
I had one '79 who's bore was .46".
A .458" projo is gonna just rattle down the bore damaging what it wants on its way out.
It is VERY soft "steel". Like in the ballpark of almost still iron kinda steel. Itll work ok for a while but you're slowly ironing out the rifling with each shot.
And the modern .458 45-70 bullet dimensions generally wont fit well in a trapdoor. Whose bore diameter is more like a general wish for something 45ish.
I had one '79 who's bore was .46".
A .458" projo is gonna just rattle down the bore damaging what it wants on its way out.
highlander 5
Member
There is one other thing to consider your bore may be oversized and jacketed bullets may not shoot all that well. Keeping precise tolerances 100 plus years ago fall into the "close enough for government work" dept.
Soft lead bullets and black powder could make up for a bore that could be ."002-."005 over size bore.
Soft lead bullets and black powder could make up for a bore that could be ."002-."005 over size bore.
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